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[Marty Chinn]

One dev team doesn't speak for the rest, of course, but I do understand the benefits of updating an iOS app vs updating a 360/PS3 game...the benefits on the iOS platform are much more. So you're right in that aspect, but it doesn't mean devs aren't limited with the current rules now.

It's not one dev team though. We get contracted out so we work with several dev teams so I'm not just seeing it from my own company's viewpoint. The benefits are more, but the scope is a lot less and the target market is different. I'm sure it's changed, but I hated how iOS apps updated for the sake of getting moved up in visibility because people would just submit a bug fix and they would get more visibility. It's a bad way of doing things.

I didn't phrase that well; what I mean is that MS seems to be holding onto a standard that has long since changed. They made concessions to Notch for Minecraft, and the same with Zen Studios with their pinball game, but why not go there for all devs? Why do they work on a case by case basis like that? I'm hoping a new platform will also refresh their requirements on patching, cert, and so on.

There has always been a set strict guidelines and Microsoft has always had more of a strict structure than other platforms. But really, Apple has their own set of restrictions that is dated but people conform to them. Everyone does their own type of control in some way. Ever look at the TCR checklist? Games often violate TCRs and many get waivers, especially if there is reason of clout. It's unfair I admit and the big boys get away with things that the smaller boys wouldn't, but they are the exception usually and the rules tend to be there for a reason even if you don't agree with them.

I think Microsoft should lighten up on the rules of their patching, but refreshing certification? Why? Even paying for patches I'm not totally against because it does cost Microsoft money to validate the patching. I also think minimizing how frequent patching is a good thing for both keeping lazy development out and for being consumer friendly. The message is get it right the first time but you have the option to fix it in case shit happens which it does. Much better than the 50+ patches I've received for the Yelp app on iOS that did nothing but fix bugs.

 

[Minsc]

But it's true. Not one game I've ever worked did the dev team express that they wanted to keep doing it. Sure they wanted to get a patch or two planned out to fix known issues and to add some DLC, but the continued constant patching is something that nobody ever wanted to do. Everyone wants some downtime and to move on to the next project. This is not the scope of some 99 cent app here.

The thing is, for TPA, this has been their statement from Day 1... they said they wanted TPA to be a platform in itself, with every month bringing new tables, and patching older ones. They're passionate about their product, and want the tables to be the best simulations they can be, and they said they'd revisit previously released tables and fix bugs, and that's what they have been doing on Android/Mac/iOS (and I'd imagine PC too when it releases). They are even ethusaistic about supporting new hardware (improving graphics and resolution of the iPad, getting better lighting in other systems, etc). Consoles are almost like a thorn in their side imo, with the month long approval process compared to the instantaneous releasing on Android or PC, not to even consider the fees, which are non-existent outside of MS/Sony.

Also to touch more on patching, I have no problems with it. I have hundreds of apps on iOS, and only see a couple a day getting updates. The only way you get hammered with 100+ updates is by going months without checking. And they could make it even better. Just look at steam, automatic updating. A game like TPA on Steam could have 10,000 patches in a month, and I probably wouldn't even notice it, from a user standpoint. The updates are done automatically when not in use, and it takes about 2-3 seconds to download a table (on iOS, probably less on a PC).

 

[added_time]

I wonder if the process for Wii-U and 3DS is going to be simpler for them than what they have been experiencing with Microsoft.
I have been playing Pinball Arcade only on xbox360 so far but I would be more than happy to rebuy all the tables for the Nintendo consoles if they find it easier to release on those platforms.
I've heard horror stories of how Nintendo treated developers of downloadable games for Wii though so hopefully they have changed their policies.

 

[Marty Chinn]

The thing is, for TPA, this has been their statement from Day 1... they said they wanted TPA to be a platform in itself, with every month bringing new tables, and patching older ones. They're passionate about their product, and want the tables to be the best simulations they can be, and they said they'd revisit previously released tables and fix bugs, and that's what they have been doing on Android/Mac/iOS (and I'd imagine PC too when it releases). They are even ethusaistic about supporting new hardware (improving graphics and resolution of the iPad, getting better lighting in other systems, etc).

Well there are always exceptions but we were talking about game development in general and patching on a console, not specifically this developer. Even then, there's a difference between a patch and DLC. What TPA is doing is more DLC than patching. I think TPA is great, but for most console development, the developers don't want to do constant patching.

Consoles are almost like a thorn in their side imo, with the month long approval process compared to the instantaneous releasing on Android or PC, not to even consider the fees, which are non-existent outside of MS/Sony.

You don't see the correlation between the two at all? It takes longer because more is done with it before it's approved. Stuff is much more looked over before being released. This is an attempt to maintain the quality of the experience for the end user. It's painful for the developer, but also encourages them to get it done right the first time as much as possible rather than submitting thinking they can just fix it later anytime they want. Even though it's a bit more painful for us, it's better for the gamer and consumer.

Also to touch more on patching, I have no problems with it. I have hundreds of apps on iOS, and only see a couple a day getting updates. The only way you get hammered with 100+ updates is by going months without checking. And they could make it even better. Just look at steam, automatic updating. A game like TPA on Steam could have 10,000 patches in a month, and I probably wouldn't even notice it, from a user standpoint. The updates are done automatically when not in use, and it takes about 2-3 seconds to download a table (on iOS, probably less on a PC).

Well since iOS doesn't notify you of updates, I only check once every two or three weeks and I'm always given a ton of updates. Most of them are just "bug fixes" and some apps, like Yelp, I notice get "bug fixes" constantly. It's a bit annoying. Why? Because I don't simply hit update all, I go through each update to see what it is to see if I want it. It's time consuming when more than half of them are just bug fixes and many of them from an app that is constantly patched.

 

[BritBloke916]

I gave them my $25 earlier today; they're already accumulating cash very nicely. Even if they don't get enough extra to grab the ST:TNG licence this time around then I'm sure that a successful financing of The Twilight Zone (and it's looking extremely likely to be successful) would give them the confidence to go ahead with a second Kickstarter specifically for ST:TNG.

Well since iOS doesn't notify you of updates, I only check once every two or three weeks and I'm always given a ton of updates.

Really? My fourth-gen iPod Touch (iOS 5) does. Are using an older version of iOS?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Really? My fourth-gen iPod Touch (iOS 5) does. Are using an older version of iOS?

I'm on an iPhone 4 with iOS5 and I only see the badge counter increased when I enter the store. I don't get a push notification telling me there are new updates.

 

[added_time]

The donations have really slowed to a crawl now. They should try to get the word out on more forums and blogs or whatever they need to do.
Although I guess someone mentioned that these kickstarters usually spike in the last few days so they will probably be alright.

 

[BritBloke916]

I'm on an iPhone 4 with iOS5 and I only see the badge counter increased when I enter the store. I don't get a push notification telling me there are new updates.

Interesting. Maybe it's because I use AppShopper and have a wishlist set-up on that; it ties into the store and may be the reason that I get update notifications regularly even though I rarely enter the actual store.

 

[BritBloke916]

I guess someone mentioned that these kickstarters usually spike in the last few days so they will probably be alright.

Yeah, they're almost certainly fine at this point. Looking at the donation curves of other Kickstarters I'd be astounded if they failed to reach their target.

 

[added_time]

Yeah, they're almost certainly fine at this point. Looking at the donation curves of other Kickstarters I'd be astounded if they failed to reach their target.

Where can you see the donation curves?

 

[twinturbo2]

The donations have really slowed to a crawl now. They should try to get the word out on more forums and blogs or whatever they need to do.
Although I guess someone mentioned that these kickstarters usually spike in the last few days so they will probably be alright.

I wonder if they tapped out the pinball community's wallets.

 

[dallow_bg]

I'm on an iPhone 4 with iOS5 and I only see the badge counter increased when I enter the store. I don't get a push notification telling me there are new updates.

Weird, I do.
It just keeps going up, and I rarely enter the store.

 

[BritBloke916]

Where can you see the donation curves?

That's a good question! I've seen graphs posted on NeoGAF to show amount raised vs. time for a couple of different video gaming Kickstarters, but I'm not sure where they were obtained. Suffice to say that it seems to be very common to have a big rush at the 11th hour (sounds like most development cycles!)

 

[Marty Chinn]

Weird, I do.
It just keeps going up, and I rarely enter the store.

Is there a setting somewhere to toggle push notifications on or off for the store? I don't see it listed in the Store settings or the Notification settings.

 

[Cardigan]

That's a good question! I've seen graphs posted on NeoGAF to show amount raised vs. time for a couple of different video gaming Kickstarters, but I'm not sure where they were obtained. Suffice to say that it seems to be very common to have a big rush at the 11th hour (sounds like most development cycles!)

They probably came from kicktraq.com

 

[charlequin]

But it's true. Not one game I've ever worked did the dev team express that they wanted to keep doing it.

What made sense in the era where packaged-good games were first dipping their toes into digital content waters doesn't make sense anymore. At this point AAA and niche indie games have both discovered that robust post-release update schedules and responsive patching are a great way to drive post-release sales and keep a product (and its developers) with a positive image in the public eye. The whole model that leads to "ship it and forget it" is increasingly dated at this point, it's not 2005 anymore.

 

[Marty Chinn]

What made sense in the era where packaged-good games were first dipping their toes into digital content waters doesn't make sense anymore. At this point AAA and niche indie games have both discovered that robust post-release update schedules and responsive patching are a great way to drive post-release sales and keep a product (and its developers) with a positive image in the public eye. The whole model that leads to "ship it and forget it" is increasingly dated at this point, it's not 2005 anymore.

Console and traditional handheld games are still front loaded even with digital versions available. You can't compare iOS and Android apps to big budget games for their lifespan. There is very little money to continue to patching the game to fix and add features for free. There's money in DLC, but not in patching.

 

[Kai Dracon]

What made sense in the era where packaged-good games were first dipping their toes into digital content waters doesn't make sense anymore. At this point AAA and niche indie games have both discovered that robust post-release update schedules and responsive patching are a great way to drive post-release sales and keep a product (and its developers) with a positive image in the public eye. The whole model that leads to "ship it and forget it" is increasingly dated at this point, it's not 2005 anymore.

The old advice was "treat every game as if it'll be the last your company develops."

Now it's becoming "treat every game as if it is the rest of your career in the industry."

In the sense that, people are coming to expect a product to be supported after they buy it and it's no longer just about what's 'in the box'. It's how the product is treated and how the customer is treated that dramatically affects receptivity to future products from the same source.

 

[BritBloke916]

They probably came from kicktraq.com

You're correct, those are exactly what I'd seen. Thank you.

I think that Republiques donation profile would give even the slowest starting Kickstarter project room for SOME hope!

Current Kickstarter trends suggest that The Twilight Zone will be comfortably funded (and I might even get my beloved ST:TNG table into the bargain).

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

They could average less than a thousand dollars per day and still make their goal at this point, and they will average well more than that by the end. It's a lock.

 

[mclem]

In the sense that, people are coming to expect a product to be supported after they buy it and it's no longer just about what's 'in the box'. It's how the product is treated and how the customer is treated that dramatically affects receptivity to future products from the same source.

To drag up a bit of an old chestnut: Is this 'games as a service' from the other direction?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

There's money in DLC, but not in patching.

Minecraft is clearly the exception, but it proves it is possible to build incredible success slowly over free updates rather than forced purchases. Obviously, it helps if your game is a brilliant change of pace for most as well as addictive.

 

[charlequin]

Console and traditional handheld games

You mean the parts of the industry that are rapidly being displaced by other platforms, distribution methods, and payment models, and falling off a sales cliff as a result?

Like I said, it's not 2005 anymore. Releases like TPA are the future and consoles need to catch up to the way they'll be handling releases.

 

[Marty Chinn]

You mean the parts of the industry that are rapidly being displaced by other platforms, distribution methods, and payment models, and falling off a sales cliff as a result?

Like I said, it's not 2005 anymore. Releases like TPA are the future and consoles need to catch up to the way they'll be handling releases.

Ya that industry but what we're discussing here isn't the cause of that problem. They're falling off a ledge for other reasons. In fact, you may even argue that DLC is contributing to that problem.

 

[Jucksalbe]

$40,000! So glad this is going well for them.

 

[charlequin]

Ya that industry but what we're discussing here isn't the cause of that problem.

I didn't say it was, I just said that cool, modern projects like TPA getting hosed in their console releases because of problematic policies designed for an industry that doesn't exist in the same shape anymore is wicked dumb.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I didn't say it was, I just said that cool, modern projects like TPA getting hosed in their console releases because of problematic policies designed for an industry that doesn't exist in the same shape anymore is wicked dumb.

Of course it sucks in this case, but there are always exceptions. The thing is you don't make your policies based around the minority or the exception. There are good reasons these policies are in place and they're designed for the consumer benefit in the experience. What you have to understand is that the submission and approval process is much more thorough and much more involved than say what Apple does. The stuff that gets accidently released would never happen through Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony. There also isn't the lack of communication when something goes wrong. Developers are paying for all this support and testing. I take it you've never had to experience the submission process. Their pricing and policy on patching isn't the problem with console development nor is it there without good reason. This isn't something new either as PC has been around for ages without any type of approval process or fees associated with it to contrast console development. Unfortunately TPA hits an issue because of it, but to say the policies are bad is short sighted of what they try to do.

 

[Minsc]

I'm all for the way it works on Android and PC personally. Skip the review process entirely, let the devs push things through in a matter of minutes/hours.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

$40,000! So glad this is going well for them.

With 20 days left looks like it's in the bag and we can hope for Star Trek TNG soon.

 

[jvm]

I wish I could be as sanguine as you guys about this. I'll be happy when I see they really have hit their goal.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1067367405/pinball-arcade-the-twilight-zone

 

[charlequin]

Of course it sucks in this case, but there are always exceptions. The thing is you don't make your policies based around the minority or the exception.

These things aren't the minority or the exception anymore. Every AAA game ships with a yearlong DLC strategy in place these days. Most indie titles do free patches to add content, features, and bugfixes for a while after release, and the ambitious ones are willing to forego console releaases entirely to keep this capability available.

There are good reasons these policies are in place and they're designed for the consumer benefit in the experience.

Right, except... they suck at that. Look at the the launch of Super Meat Boy: released on Xbox 360 with a potentially game-breaing progress-loss bug that took three months to be fixed despite a patch being developed almost immediately, vs. a Steam release that was patched multiple times daily after launch such that the major issues were all taken care of within a week.

What you have to understand is that the submission and approval process is much more thorough and much more involved than say what Apple does.

Yeah, but for, like, almost no meaningful benefit to consumers or, really, to publishers and developers.

I mean, if we were operating in a world where console releases never had gamebreaking bugs or shipped with content that needed adjusting, maybe the tradeoff would be worth it -- but in practice, stuff still ships broken or incomplete on consoles and it just takes longer (and more money) to fix it.

 

[Plinko]

I wish I could be as sanguine as you guys about this. I'll be happy when I see they really have hit their goal.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1067367405/pinball-arcade-the-twilight-zone

They're already at 78% with 3 weeks to go. They'll easily get there.

 

[SmithnCo]

They sent out an email with a picture of the table they got: (Pretty cool, they should reach the goal easily)

 

[GDJustin]

I wish I could be as sanguine as you guys about this. I'll be happy when I see they really have hit their goal.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1067367405/pinball-arcade-the-twilight-zone

This project is totally fine. Kickstarters ALWAYS receive a very big chunk (upwards of 50%) of their funding in the final 24-48 hours. Every single time.

What bugs ME is Farsight's lack of marketing savvy. What they need to do is put their stretch goals front and center. Really push this. 110K gets Star Trek. 200K Aadam's Family. 300K Indiana Jones (or whatever).

 

[mclem]

This project is totally fine. Kickstarters ALWAYS receive a very big chunk (upwards of 50%) of their funding in the final 24-48 hours. Every single time.

Not *quite* always: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/niffler/chucks-challenge-3d/

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1005365109/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-2012-2013-csg/ had a less pronounced spike, too, although there clearly was one.

Still, it happens a lot of the time.

 

[Shaneus]

This project is totally fine. Kickstarters ALWAYS receive a very big chunk (upwards of 50%) of their funding in the final 24-48 hours. Every single time.

What bugs ME is Farsight's lack of marketing savvy. What they need to do is put their stretch goals front and center. Really push this. 110K gets Star Trek. 200K Aadam's Family. 300K Indiana Jones (or whatever).

Yup. If there was more emphasis on double getting ST:TNG I'd have donated twice as much already (and even if they included some ST:TNG-related kicks on the proviso they reach $110k). Honestly, I want it FAR more than TZ and would rather kick in money knowing it was going to both rather than *maybe* going to both.

 

[MattKeil]

Good news, everyone - Farsight has worked out a deal with Microsoft and the Xbox 360 version is now available as a reward for backers.

 

[Minsc]

Nice, beat me to it. Hopefully that counts for a little boost!

At the rate they've been going, we still have around another 10 days before the TNG stretch kicks in, which might be too late for it to reach $110K.

 

[hoverboarder]

Has there been any talk on the Back to the Future pinball? One of my favorites:

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?gid=126

 

[Daigoro]

Good news, everyone - Farsight has worked out a deal with Microsoft and the Xbox 360 version is now available as a reward for backers.

that is good news.

 

[The Technomancer]

Has there been any talk on the Back to the Future pinball? One of my favorites:

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?gid=126

Man there are so many Pinball machines that I wish could be digitized just for preservation purposes. The dying state of pinball machines is depressing.

 

[Minsc]

In other news, there's been a little controversy over them needing this kickstarter at all, given they announced Pinball Arcade has 3 million downloads and counting (on the mobile versions alone) on facebook the other day.

3+ million customers and they don't feel confident even 1% will buy this masterful table @ $3-$4 for a total of $100K... and if 10% bought it, it'd be more like $1 million.

Edit: Maybe not every download is a customer, but even still, that's pretty crazy, much higher than I expected. Plus there are plenty of customers on non-mobile platforms to offset a little of the inflation from the same person downloading it multiple times.

 

[Luigiv]

In other news, there's been a little controversy over them needing this kickstarter at all, given they announced Pinball Arcade has 3 million downloads and counting (on the mobile versions alone) on facebook the other day.

3+ million customers and they don't feel confident even 1% will buy this masterful table @ $3-$4 for a total of $100K... and if 10% bought it, it'd be more like $1 million.

Downloaded != Purchased. I've downloaded the Android version but I haven't paid a cent for any table yet.

You're way over simplifying the costs too, there's more than just the licencing fee. I'm sure Farsight's costing methods are more comprehensive than yours and those costings revealed the need for the upfront licencing payment.

 

[web01]

$100 for access to the operators menu is a complete bitch move.
Has completely dissuaded me for donating at all.

Hope it fails regardless not because i do not want the table but because it could set a bad precedent for kick starting DLC
when its completely unnecessary. Just another way at draining more money from consumers.

 

[Dreamwriter]

$100 for access to the operators menu is a complete bitch move.
Has completely dissuaded me for donating at all.

Hope it fails regardless not because i do not want the table but because it could set a bad precedent for kick starting DLC
when its completely unnecessary. Just another way at draining more money from consumers.

Eh? How is an operators menu bonus a bitch move? It's not like this is a feature they've offered on every table, it's definitely a special bonus.

And what makes this completely unnecessary? Are you saying you know of a way they could get all of the licenses needed for The Twilight Zone for free?

 

[Data West]

Man there are so many Pinball machines that I wish could be digitized just for preservation purposes. The dying state of pinball machines is depressing.

Seriously. Liscenses make them such a pain. I want this game to have hundreds of tables. Star Wars, Terminator, Family Guy, Iron Man, Tron Legacy, Addams family, Jurassic Park, etc.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Hope it fails regardless not because i do not want the table but because it could set a bad precedent for kick starting DLC
when its completely unnecessary. Just another way at draining more money from consumers.

Classy

 

[MattKeil]

$100 for access to the operators menu is a complete bitch move.
Has completely dissuaded me for donating at all.

No other tables on TPA or their disc collection offer operator menus. It's a special bonus for high-spending backers. No idea what you're on about.

 

[exmachina64]

Good news, everyone - Farsight has worked out a deal with Microsoft and the Xbox 360 version is now available as a reward for backers.

I'm really excited; I'd prefer to have it on my 360 rather than my Android phone.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Good news, everyone - Farsight has worked out a deal with Microsoft and the Xbox 360 version is now available as a reward for backers.

Time to triple dip like I was pledging to. I need fo contact these guys tho.