wesleyshark
Banned
Well my 2nd cousin's best friend read somewhere that there was going to be support for version 2 discs.
Goodness.
Goodness.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
Maybe they actually made a loss or notenough profit on selling Bluray players and decided to only sell licensing fees as all trends are pointing towards streaming.
Forget it Jake, it's Rigbytown.
I hadn't realized this. Really strange.
Do you really believe that PS4 can't decode HEVC? My guess is that Sony will update the PS4s to decode HEVC sometime after PS4 Pro is released
Adam Tyner
Member
I absolutely believe it's possible for the launch PS4 to decode HEVC video. I flat-out know it, even.
I do not believe it's possible for the PS4 to decode 100 Mbps UHD video encoded with HEVC. Why do I think that? Because the guy who heads up the PlayStation hardware group said so, which is also what Stacey Spears said about the Xbox One (and he was on the Xbox video team at Microsoft, for crying out loud!).
Negotiator
Member
There's no H.265 UVD block, the Jaguar is too weak to handle it (even with AVX assembly), so GPGPU it is then?
What's funny is that the PS4 Pro must support both H.264 and H.265 (same quality for half the bitrate), so Share Play, Remote Play and Twitch/YT streaming will most likely use H.264 for compatibility reasons. H.264 1080p60 will require a really fast connection, if it's possible.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't know.So apparently the answer is yes.
Jeff: do you at least concede that the 2013 launch consoles will not have a firmware update to support Ultra HD Blu-ray playback in 2016?
It was possible to support UHD Blu-ray in 2013 but did they? When did they make the decision to not support UHD blu-ray in the 2016 models?
There is still Sony calling the 2013 and 2015 PS4 UHD capable while Microsoft calls the 2013 XB1 HD capable.
While I would still loose the bet, I would be satisfied if ALL PS4s are UHD capable as the 40 million PS4s on the market can be used with ATSC 3.
I'd really like some easier to understand technical articles on what the drive requires to lay that to rest.
whitemex88
Member
somehow I knew that after yesterday's unveiling this thread would be bumped yet again
Negotiator
Member
For starters, it needs a stronger laser:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=216275070&postcount=1590
Extra Sauce
Member
I just noticed the thread was originally posted on 04-20.
It all makes sense now.
It all makes sense now.
The UVD block is a DPU that can be updated with firmware & GPGPU can also use CU reservation to have a fast video encoding pipeline. but truthfully I think there is a real reason for the delay that Sony is having for supporting UHD Blu-ray/ H.265. maybe it's some standard that they are waiting for.
jeff_rigby
Banned
UVD 6 is a block of Xtensa DSP with the configurable logic before tapeout supporting 5 HEVC accelerator blocks and is also used for Vision processing. This is what Masaaki Tsuruta, Sony Computer Entertainment 4 January 2012 said was needed in next generation game consoles.
Negotiator
Member
UVD/VCE are fixed-function hardware blocks. Radeon GPU is a fully programmable one.
Totally different things.
Like the HDMI controller... not necessarily the UVD block.
Totally different things.
"some configurable logic"
Like the HDMI controller... not necessarily the UVD block.
The DPUs are update-able through fw
jeff_rigby
Banned
VCE is a hardware codec, UVD is made using Xtensa DSP from Cadence. You really need to read up on it as it's used for True Audio, OpenVX, Vision processing and Codecs BECAUSE it's 100X more efficient at these tasks than a CPU or GPU.
To give an outline of a Xtensa DSP block, after tapeout it consists of a controller CPU with up to 64 simpler ALUs that have 3 or more fixed function accelerator blocks for each. Additionally some of these simpler CPUs can have custom accelerators (configurable logic before tapeout) for HEVC. Processors before tapeout are emulated on FPGA and configurable logic blocks are tested. After tapeout the configurable logic is fixed hardware and no longer configurable.
A generic Xtensa DSP block designed for video that does not have custom accelerators for HEVC (2013 PS4 for example) will use the fixed function blocks that are generic to video processing. This is less efficient but those blocks can be used to emulate in software the fixed function HEVC accelerators defined by Microsoft in 2013. Those Fixed function accelerators for HEVC can be used by other codec familes according to Microsoft. Less efficient for HEVC translates into a larger DSP block and more expensive (about $10).
Vision processing and Codecs use similar routines and a Xtensa DSP block can be used for both and still be 100X more efficient than a CPU or GPU. Additionally they are on a ARM bus and can can be made part of the TEE which is required for codecs. ALL AMD APUs use Xtensa DSPs for UVD and have ARM middleware for gesture recognition using the Xtensa DSP block that is called UVD.
onQ123 made the connection that the GPGPU blocks in the XB1 and PS4 are Xtensa DSP blocks and was seconded by Panajev2001a. I did some research and WOW it all fit and was what Masaaki Tsuruta, Sony Computer Entertainment 4 January 2012 said was needed in next generation game consoles.
There was confusion on what the configurable logic was as it was assumed to be FPGA which will be used in some of the next generation GPUs. Charlie of Semi accurate made this mistake as did onq123 and I early on. Update-able through firmware is often misunderstood, after tapeout it just means using microcode to create a higher level routine that for example emulates one of the 5 Microsoft defined HEVC hardware accelerators. This is less efficient but the 2013 DSP block could appear to the OS as a 2015 or later DSP block with HEVC accelerators.
The Custom Panasonic HDMI chip is not configurable logic it is just built to support the features needed and is much simpler than fixed function HDMI 1.4 chips or Fixed function HDMI 2 chips, the latter which has it's own TEE and duplicates some of the functionality of a TMP module and the cryptographic accelerator blocks in a ARM Trustzone TEE needed for HDCP 2.2.
HDCP 2.2 is used for Miracast, Playready ND, DTCP-IP and is a duplicate of the HDCP 2.2 also needed in Fixed function HDMI 2 chips. The point I was making and was seconded in the article quoting me is that HDCP 2.2 in the media TEE as Southbridge is used for HDMI 2 rather than in the Custom Panasonic HDMI chip. It has to be this way because the hardware design seen in pictures makes no attempt to hide the Pins going into the HDMI chip which now for 1080P and absolutely for 4K media is not allowed. The media has to be HDCP 2.2 encrypted before it leaves the Southbidge ARM TEE.
http://www.synopsys.com/IP/security-ip/content-protection/Pages/default.aspx said:
HDMI 2 chips containing fixed function HDCP 2.2 were not ready for the PS4 launch but creating a custom HDMI chip that just passed HDCP negotiation to the TEE and supported HDMI 2 timing using fixed function hardware was possible. ALL HDCP negotiation and HDCP 2.2 routines take place in the Southbridge ARM media TEE using software routines that are software updateable.
Edit: The question now for this thread is not that it's not possible to support UHD Blu-ray in 2013 but did they? Not covered in this post is a drive that can read Version 2 disks, the technology including more powerful lasers able to write to 4 layer BD-RE disks was available in 2010 and showed up in 2011 drives following the 2010 BD-R whitepaper which defined version 2 4 layer disks. 3 Layer version 2 disks are the UHD standard because it's very expensive adding an additional layer.
exmachina64
Banned
People told you this for months and you steadfastly denied the possibility.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Wait Rigbys banned? What for?
Bet he didn't predict this!
EightBitNate
Member
He posted something in the Hillary-Pneumonia thread. I think that might've been it.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I'd like to know too?
OdysseusVA
Banned
Long live the rigby
hope its a perm
In point of fact, engineers on both sides of the equation have denied that the hardware in question is capable of supporting UHD BD. Jeff switching gears from "The PS4 and X1 will be firmware updated to support UHD BD" to "The PS4 and X1 could have been firmware updated to support UHD BD" is just a continuation of his unwavering belief that he's right and everybody else who says otherwise is wrong. His position on the matter effectively remains unchanged.
Basically Hillary truthing.
Not sure if it's permanent. I enjoy his crazy antics for the sheer entertainment value.
Marty Chinn
Member
I think it was for the conspiracy theory stuff he was pushing about Clinton and her illness. Imagine this thread about Clinton's health.
It turns out that not only is Jeff Rigby not an engineer, he's also not an M.D.
...
We're never going to get this topic changed, are we.
wesleyshark
Banned
Hillary's health was perfect in 2013
She finally got Pneunomia Playback compability.
PeskyToaster
Member
Jeff cut down as his victory parade marched through the triumphal arch. Memento mori, Jeff Rigby.
wesleyshark
Banned
HRC.
HDR.
THINK ABOUT IT.
HDR.
THINK ABOUT IT.
ss_lemonade
Member
I haven't been following this train too much but if all PS4s can be patched to have hdr support, does that mean that they all have hdmi 2.0 ports?
exmachina64
Banned
Doesn't look like it. I think we'll find that the retroactive HDR support is something of a "hack", not unlike how the PS3 supports 3D Blu-rays by actually rendering them at 1080i per eye rather than 1080p.
By simply sending out the full color information via HDMI that has been calculated internally for quality reasons anyway. Most game engines nowadays do, then cut back to standard color definition range in the final step. Omit this step and you get the real picture.
Apparently the custom HDMI chip does have the needed reserves to transport the additional data. Even Rigby got some parts right.
By simply sending out the full color information via HDMI that has been calculated internally for quality reasons anyway. Most game engines nowadays do, then cut back to standard color definition range in the final step. Omit this step and you get the real picture.
Apparently the custom HDMI chip does have the needed reserves to transport the additional data. Even Rigby got some parts right.
Ah okay
whoa jeff of banned? edit: oh... I see
Theonik
Member
PS3 does 1080p per eye for 3D BD. You can't do it for games though not even on 1.4 proper because of bandwidth limits to 30fps.
The limitations manifest with sound on the phat due to no bitstream support.
I'm not certain how this site can affirm that the chip is (restricted to) HDMI v1.4, since its specifications aren't available from Panasonic's web site.
The closest reference you can get from Panasonic is the MN864717M, which is indeed restricted to HDMI 1.4b.
But all you can tell from it is that Sony opted for a custom chip that is probably derived from it.
The only thing we can take for granted at the moment is that the PS4 will be able to drive the 1080p PSVR display at 120 Hz.
Which is something HDMI 1.4b cannot offer (insufficient bandwidth).
I don't know if HDMI 2.0 capable TVs can give feedback about what's connected to the other end, but if they do, we'll certainly know really quick what kind of update is brought (or not) to the console's HDMI port by FW 4.0.
NeOak
Member
[citation needed]
And I would argue more, but it is a waste of time to argue with you. They used the cheapest drive they could get that did 6x BD-ROM. Not upgradable as actually stated by Penello. Something you keep ignoring because it kills your argument.
And while the HDMI chip on the PS4 can do HDR with a hack, the one in the XBO is uncapable of that, otherwise they would have enabled it too or announced something along with all the dirt they threw Sony with the lack of UHD support.
WickedLaharl
Member
I'm dying
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Uncovering Hillary's Demise
SONY's UHD bluray players launch next year.
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=19767
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=19767
Ah, right.
The underlying logic is probably thus: Panasonic's HDMI 2.0-compliant transmitters have a much higher model number while the similarly yet higher-numbered MN864717M supports HDMI 1.4b, ergo it can be reasonably assumed that the MN86471A is HDMI 1.4-based. I'd guess that the chip isn't listed on Panasonic's site as it's a bespoke (custom-made) component of the PS4 rather than a general-purpose part, which would certainly explain how the PS4 supports 1080p120 for the purpose of PSVR.
dr_rus
Member
1080p @ 120Hz is possible on HDMI 1.4b.
dr_rus
Member
If the bandwidth is there then why would it be "stuck" at 60Hz?