Support NeoGAF

[LordRaptor]

Yeah, fellow Brightonian here, and Southern really are the worst.

For those not familiar, there's a crowdfunded campaign going on right now (which is so close to hitting its final stretch goal) for a judicial review of their tender.

That's more than a 1000 people paying money they never expect to get back just to get a judge to look at how fucked it is.

 

[darkace]

FTFY

How does privatisation = 'for the mates'? Corruption is far more likely to occur with centrally controlled goods.

 

[Carcetti]

The problem of privatization of essential public services is more like this:

Contrary to what people might think, the purpose of a company who takes on these responsibilities is not to take a good care of these services. That may happen, but it's equally valid tactic to just siphon as much money off it as you can and let it all rot, moving the problem to someone else. Short term gains > long term gains because the system is a train of revolving doors that can move money and executives always to new ventures.

 

[Khoryos]

Yeah, fellow Brightonian here, and Southern really are the worst.

For those not familiar, there's a crowdfunded campaign going on right now (which is so close to hitting its final stretch goal) for a judicial review of their tender.

That's more than a 1000 people paying money they never expect to get back just to get a judge to look at how fucked it is.

Welp, I just threw some money on there - got it to a nice round £24,000.

 

[GeordieMark]

I can't believe they did that. They really have completely misjudged the mood. The guys I work with that use Southern are at their wits end.

 

[Ravensmash]

Don't loads and loads of other train operators do exactly that? In fact I'm sitting on the Cambridge to Kings Cross Great Northern service right now and I'm 99% sure the only staff member on board is the guy "driving" the train. There was an RMT guy on LBC the other week claiming that the door guys get special training to recognise suspect packages, so apparently they also fulfil an anti-terrorist role too. Woo.

Routinely doing a similar route, I am 99.9% sure that their trains are driver only.

The only staff you ever see on board are ticket inspectors.

 

[storafötter]

I got to experience how bad Southern was by just using them while on holiday in London.

 

[keep]

the DLR only have the wizened key master as a concession to unions.

As a person who has lived for over 10 years less than 10 feet away from a DLR station and uses its services pretty much every single day of the year, the myth that the trains would drive themselves just fine is utter bollocks. Dismissing the train operator as a 'key master' just shows you haven't used the service regularly and are buying into the usual propaganda of magical trains that always run on time and never have any flow or capacity issues, customers who behave impeccably and never trip over/faint/stop the doors/get rowdy/travel without paying their ticket/don't know where they're going/bring in unacceptable vehicles onto the train (I once saw a guy trying to get a motorbike on it)/etcetera.

The argument that an automatic driverless service would be equally as good is nonsense for the simple reason that we are HUMANS and as such we bring an infinite number of HUMAN ISSUES wherever we go and interact. You can't programme a machine to tackle all of these.

 

[pulsemyne]

How does privatisation = 'for the mates'? Corruption is far more likely to occur with centrally controlled goods.

Oh I think you would be very surprised if you looked at some of the directorships of the companies involved and just who most are friends with.

 

[King Gilga]

Southern deserve all the shit they get.

I try to keep my train using in this country to a bare minimum, but the few times I've used them have all been terrible.

If I had to use them to commute I'd be on suicide watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHu_cfy33bY

This is about trains.

The tube is fine, hell compared to the trains it's literal heaven.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Southern are awful, but Thameslink are not much better. Lots of delays, cancelled trains and overcrowded trains.

I feel sorry for the commuters on Southern. The stories you hear about it makes me almost happy to be stuck with Thameslink and that's saying something.

I recently changed from a Thameslink commute to a Southern starting in zone 3. Southern, at least outside the nightmare period where they went down to one service an hour, have generally been a lot better. At least in terms of overcrowding - there's still as many delays and cancellations, but getting a seat every day is a far cry from the jawdropping overcrowding on the Thameslink service.

 

[CyclopsRock]

As a person who has lived for over 10 years less than 10 feet away from a DLR station and uses its services pretty much every single day of the year, the myth that the trains would drive themselves just fine is utter bollocks. Dismissing the train operator as a 'key master' just shows you haven't used the service regularly and are buying into the usual propaganda of magical trains that always run on time and never have any flow or capacity issues, customers who behave impeccably and never trip over/faint/stop the doors/get rowdy/travel without paying their ticket/don't know where they're going/bring in unacceptable vehicles onto the train (I once saw a guy trying to get a motorbike on it)/etcetera.

The argument that an automatic driverless service would be equally as good is nonsense for the simple reason that we are HUMANS and as such we bring an infinite number of HUMAN ISSUES wherever we go and interact. You can't programme a machine to tackle all of these.

I think you're overstating it pretty significantly. When was the last time you saw a tube train driver gets out of the front seat to deal with something? Yet they don't have anyone on board, and often not on the platform either. Besides, as far as they go these are all far better arguments for having a person on the platform, not on the train ( this also goes for the problem of a bendy platform, too). Someone on a train can only readily be in one carriage at a time. Any help they can offer to the people of that carriage cannot simultaneously be offered to anyone else.

 

[darkace]

Oh I think you would be very surprised if you looked at some of the directorships of the companies involved and just who most are friends with.

Not really? I can't remember a single privatisation in my country where ties like this were exposed.

Actually Telstra was pretty bad, although that was driven more for a desire for a high sale price than malicious intent.

 

[LordRaptor]

Well in the UK we recently privatised the Post Office for about half what it was worth, and the people in charge with valuing its worth were also investors who were supposedly going to remain as institutional investors, but immediately flipped their shares for huge profits at the tax payers expense.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Newsflash: Strikes that affect the public will never gain sympathy from the public. More at 9.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Newsflash: Strikes that affect the public will never gain sympathy from the public. More at 9.

This news story is about people being more sympathetic to the strikers than the company.

 

[LordRaptor]

Newsflash: Strikes that affect the public will never gain sympathy from the public. More at 9.

Well, that's what Southern were hoping for.
The News is how badly that backfired on them.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Merseyrail are pretty good to be fair. Some Dutch company bought them. Although ironically, they are currently being replaced by a bus service for a few months while the lines have work done. People are usually surprised to learn that there are 5 underground stations in the area.

And nobody ever seems to realise about the St.Georges hall entrance either, lad ^_^

 

[7aged]

I recently changed from a Thameslink commute to a Southern starting in zone 3. Southern, at least outside the nightmare period where they went down to one service an hour, have generally been a lot better. At least in terms of overcrowding - there's still as many delays and cancellations, but getting a seat every day is a far cry from the jawdropping overcrowding on the Thameslink service.

To be fair to both Thameslink and Southern, a lot of the delays are due to infrastructure problems on the Brighton mainline which they share. Network Rail needs to invest in improvement of the line. Of course that doesn't excuse the shit trains and poor customer service.

I think you're overstating it pretty significantly. When was the last time you saw a tube train driver gets out of the front seat to deal with something? Yet they don't have anyone on board, and often not on the platform either. Besides, as far as they go these are all far better arguments for having a person on the platform, not on the train ( this also goes for the problem of a bendy platform, too). Someone on a train can only readily be in one carriage at a time. Any help they can offer to the people of that carriage cannot simultaneously be offered to anyone else.

Yup, the jobs of train driver and guard are pretty much superfluous with driverless trains and screen doors.

 

[stephenjames]

I live in Brighton - work in London. This affects my life.
The whole situation is terrible. I wish they would sort it out.

 

[Crispy75]

Ok, check out this tube/rail map of London. For the interests of this thread, note Southern's routes in dashed green.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xoS3E7z0QKs/TXoRcquwRHI/AAAAAAAACNM/0Tt0rXLuu1I/s1600/tuberailcombined.png

South of the river, the railways were built by a handful of competing companies, all with their own terminal stations, and desperate to serve each others' markets. True unbridled competition. As a result, interchange is terrible, there are loads of crossing points, and loads of routes that share tracks. Delays on one line create delays on seemingly unrelated lines. Capacity is constrained. It's a miracle it even works.

Compare with the tube and rail in North London, where individual lines are traversed by individual operators. It's no surprise Midland get high praise - they are the only operator on their line. Ditto TFL rail.

Untangling the South London Railways mess is a generational problem. Stations way outside London demand their West End *and* City terminals, and nobody wants to give up the services they are used to. Having separate infrastructure and multiple operating companies is only a barrier to that effort.

 

[badcrumble]

Privatizing anything with inelastic demand or a geographic monopoly is absurd and usually quite destructive. It's something right-wing ideologues do but it doesn't actually make any sense in terms of the public betterment.

 

[darkace]

Privatizing anything with inelastic demand or a geographic monopoly is absurd and usually quite destructive. It's something right-wing ideologues do but it doesn't actually make any sense in terms of the public betterment.

Given Japan runs this system very well privately, it's hard to say that it will inevitably fail. Just that this privatisation has been bad.

 

[Acinixys]

Privatizing anything with inelastic demand or a geographic monopoly is absurd and usually quite destructive. It's something right-wing ideologues do but it doesn't actually make any sense in terms of the public betterment.

I feel that this is more about giving a single entity the monopoly

Since theres no competition they can fuck everything up 24/7 and still make money since consumers cant use a competitors service

 

[Dougald]

The worst thing about privatization has been the constant annual above-inflation ticket price increases that have come without much actual improvement to much of anything. It's been especially grating the last 6 or so years where most people have seen their wages stagnate.

Most people feel like these companies are squeezing people with no other choice for all the money they can possibly get, just for the privilege of getting to go to work

 

[Crispy75]

Given Japan runs this system very well privately, it's hard to say that it will inevitably fail. Just that this privatisation has been bad.

Yep. Whilst I'm personally the filthiest of filthy red commies who'd rather see the peoples' ownership of all infrastructure, privatised public transport can work. London Buses for example are all run by private companies, but TfL (a public body) sets the fares, timetables and service standards. Companies bid their lowest price for each package of routes, but are penalised for under-performing and rewarded for over-performing. Everyone's interests are aligned.

 

[Dingens]

The worst thing about privatization has been the constant annual above-inflation ticket price increases that have come without much actual improvement to much of anything. It's been especially grating the last 6 or so years where most people have seen their wages stagnate.

Most people feel like these companies are squeezing people with no other choice for all the money they can possibly get, just for the privilege of getting to go to work

actually I'd argue that the worst thing is even higher government subsidies.
read an article a few years back where they calculated that government is spending way more on UK rail after privatization then before. It's a mess

How does privatisation = 'for the mates'? Corruption is far more likely to occur with centrally controlled goods.

and yet, "corruption" is way cheaper for tax payers than private companies in natural monopolies.

[...]I read a great article a few years back about Japanese rail infrastructure allows for competing train services and it keeps the standards and prices affordable and good quality.

[...]
Japan has a very well-run private system.

Given Japan runs this system very well privately, [...]

where did this myth originate from?
The only reason why train service in Japan works to a certain degree is due to societal factors. Service etc did not improve nor change after privatization. The only thing that changed were prices and deteriorating job security and pressure resulting in a huge spike in accidents.
Sure, it's nice if you are a tourist and only travel in and between big hubs, but for everyone else? As soon as you leave the bigger area of Tokyo, or need to commute daily, you'll start to feel the pain. I had a 2 station commute (2.5km) and paid around 10k yen a month (that's roughly 130&#8364. for that kind of money, I could've commuted 3 whole months from my home town to university (~50km) with my "corrupt government controlled" rail service back home.
If anything, Japan is not a good example of privatization, just the least bad one

free market ideology requires choice, but if you have no choice, you should not leave it to the market.

 

[King Gilga]

Given Japan runs this system very well privately, it's hard to say that it will inevitably fail. Just that this privatisation has been bad.

Have you seen how expensive trains are in Japan?

 

[CyclopsRock]

actually I'd argue that the worst thing is even higher government subsidies.
read an article a few years back where they calculated that government is spending way more on UK rail after privatization then before. It's a mess

Genuine question: Is that per-passenger? Because passenger rates have gone up far in excess of population growth since privatisation.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

The worst thing is that the trains themselves are terrible. It's an enlightening experience heading to different European countries with their modernised train carriages and more punctual timing. The rail system itself needs improving -and yes that is a government issue- but this penny pinching by private companies is stifling development on a lot of lines.

 

[Lego Boss]

Privatizing anything with inelastic demand or a geographic monopoly is absurd and usually quite destructive. It's something right-wing ideologues do but it doesn't actually make any sense in terms of the public betterment.

Experts. Don't you know that BREXIT showed that experise is over-rated?

 

[CyclopsRock]

The worst thing is that the trains themselves are terrible. It's an enlightening experience heading to different European countries with their modernised train carriages and more punctual timing. The rail system itself needs improving -and yes that is a government issue- but this penny pinching by private companies is stifling development on a lot of lines.

I think a lot of that is Network Rail's responsibility though, right? Like, in the Netherlands they have those wicked double decker trains but we can't do that because a) all the bridges and tunnels are too low and b) our track gauge is too thin to support trains of that weight. Similarly, a lot of platforms are too short because they were designed 150 years ago for much smaller trains than we might wish to run now. None of this is really to do with penny pinching from the private companies, though naturally they could buy newer trains which may well be necessary and desirable but fundamentally doesn't help with over crowding and the like.

I don't know if I just have woefully low expectations, but many of the same problems exist in the Tube as a result of us being the first industrialised nation and the first to have a significant train presence, so others were able to learn lessons from our mistakes.

 

[Crispy75]

HS2 will be such a radical improvement over all other trains in the country. The first real main line built for over 100 years.

So that's why South London has such shitty transport links!

Also, the ground is full of gravel so much more tricky to tunnel through with 100 year-old technology.

 

[Bleepey]

Ok, check out this tube/rail map of London. For the interests of this thread, note Southern's routes in dashed green.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xoS3E7z0QKs/TXoRcquwRHI/AAAAAAAACNM/0Tt0rXLuu1I/s1600/tuberailcombined.png

South of the river, the railways were built by a handful of competing companies, all with their own terminal stations, and desperate to serve each others' markets. True unbridled competition. As a result, interchange is terrible, there are loads of crossing points, and loads of routes that share tracks. Delays on one line create delays on seemingly unrelated lines. Capacity is constrained. It's a miracle it even works.

Compare with the tube and rail in North London, where individual lines are traversed by individual operators. It's no surprise Midland get high praise - they are the only operator on their line. Ditto TFL rail.

Untangling the South London Railways mess is a generational problem. Stations way outside London demand their West End *and* City terminals, and nobody wants to give up the services they are used to. Having separate infrastructure and multiple operating companies is only a barrier to that effort.

So that's why South London has such shitty transport links!

 

[Yagharek]

Newsflash: Strikes that affect the public will never gain sympathy from the public. More at 9.

Southern Rail could do with a new twitter communications officer.

 

[Jacknapes]

Yep, knew it would be Southern Rail. And what did they expect really, Southern Rail are by far one of the worst (if not the worst) rail operator in the UK.

 

[Crispy75]

Here's an incredibly thorough article about the roots of the issues with Southern

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/railway-roulette/

Seriously, if you want any more detail than this, you might be ill.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

I think a lot of that is Network Rail's responsibility though, right? Like, in the Netherlands they have those wicked double decker trains but we can't do that because a) all the bridges and tunnels are too low and b) our track gauge is too thin to support trains of that weight. Similarly, a lot of platforms are too short because they were designed 150 years ago for much smaller trains than we might wish to run now. None of this is really to do with penny pinching from the private companies, though naturally they could buy newer trains which may well be necessary and desirable but fundamentally doesn't help with over crowding and the like.

I don't know if I just have woefully low expectations, but many of the same problems exist in the Tube as a result of us being the first industrialised nation and the first to have a significant train presence, so others were able to learn lessons from our mistakes.

It is. I agree that the government needs to make investments too. I'm hoping the high speed rail project will speed up a lot of the problems we are facing with our infrastructure and services - but even then, it's frankly embarrassing when my girlfriend has automated opening doors in Sweden and then she has to pull the damn handle from outside the train when she is in the UK. There is no excuse for a train running directly between two capitals -in this case Cardiff and London- to have such poor carriages in place.

 

[Crispy75]

It's frankly embarrassing when my girlfriend has automated opening doors in Sweden and then she has to pull the damn handle from outside the train when she is in the UK. There is no excuse for a train running directly between two capitals -in this case Cardiff and London- to have such poor carriages in place.

Those trains are being replaced. Here's one in testing

500 new carriages making up 122 new trains, costing £4.5bn. Some will be Diesel-electric hybrid so they can run on wired and unwired tracks. (and the Cardiff route is currently being wired up)

 

[Dingens]

Genuine question: Is that per-passenger? Because passenger rates have gone up far in excess of population growth since privatisation.

since the reason for privatization was reducing or rather eliminating government spending on rail, I don't see how this should matter as the overall gov. spending on PRIVATE rail should be zero. If the government still has to chime in with tax payer money, than why the heck do you need private rail companies? if those companies can't survive by themselves, even while being shitty and cheap as heck all around, than those have no reason to exist on your beloved free market.

[...]a) all the bridges and tunnels are too low and b) our track gauge is too thin to support trains of that weight. Similarly, a lot of platforms are too short because they were designed 150 years ago for much smaller trains than we might wish to run now. None of this is really to do with penny pinching from the private companies, though naturally they could buy newer trains which may well be necessary and desirable but fundamentally doesn't help with over crowding and the like.[...]

seems like a lot of lame excuses tbh. infrastructure isn't set in stone. bridges and tunnels can be modified, and the same is true for train stations. France only recently had to modify around 1300 stations all over the country. The only reason UK rail companies can't do the same is because they have to make a profit and initial costs are too big of a hurdle for for-profit companies.

And even without any modifications, not being able to buy new trains seems like a weak excuse... It most likely goes back to the problem I mentioned before. it's not a free choice scenario, and people have to take the train, no matter how old it is. Being a for profit company, why invest in new trains if you could make the same profit with keeping the old ones?

 

[Jezbollah]

since the reason for privatization was reducing or rather eliminating government spending on rail, I don't see how this should matter as the overall gov. spending on PRIVATE rail should be zero. If the government still has to chime in with tax payer money, than why the heck do you need private rail companies? if those companies can't survive by themselves, even while being shitty and cheap as heck all around, than those have no reason to exist on your beloved free market.



seems like a lot of lame excuses tbh. infrastructure isn't set in stone. bridges and tunnels can be modified, and the same is true for train stations. France only recently had to modify around 1300 stations all over the country. The only reason UK rail companies can't do the same is because they have to make a profit and initial costs are too big of a hurdle for for-profit companies.

And even without any modifications, not being able to buy new trains seems like a weak excuse... It most likely goes back to the problem I mentioned before. it's not a free choice scenario, and people have to take the train, no matter how old it is. Being a for profit company, why invest in new trains if you could make the same profit with keeping the old ones?

The train operators do not look after the lines that they operate on - that's down to Network Rail. TOCs look after the rolling stock, stations and employees who deliver the actual rolling service to the commuter.

 

[MCN]

East coast generated a surplus of £200m before it was needlessly handed over to Virgin.

Virgin East Coast, who are next in line to strike over needless job cuts.

Privatisation was never a good idea, and it has been one disaster after another. We've ended up with price gouging, and parts of the country are still using Pacer trains which should have been taken out of service 20 years ago.

 

[Lucumo]

I had a 2 station commute (2.5km) and paid around 10k yen a month (that's roughly 130&#8364. for that kind of money, I could've commuted 3 whole months from my home town to university (~50km) with my "corrupt government controlled" rail service back home.

130€? When was that? Japan has been deflating its currency for many years now. Also, if it was just 2,5km, why not use a bike or walk? I wouldn't have paid 10k for such a short distance.

I'm hoping the high speed rail project will speed up a lot of the problems we are facing with our infrastructure and services - but even then, it's frankly embarrassing when my girlfriend has automated opening doors in Sweden and then she has to pull the damn handle from outside the train when she is in the UK. There is no excuse for a train running directly between two capitals -in this case Cardiff and London- to have such poor carriages in place.

Really? Darn. Here, we have electrical outlets for your devices, even in regional trains.

 

[Crispy75]

seems like a lot of lame excuses tbh. infrastructure isn't set in stone. bridges and tunnels can be modified, and the same is true for train stations. France only recently had to modify around 1300 stations all over the country. The only reason UK rail companies can't do the same is because they have to make a profit and initial costs are too big of a hurdle for for-profit companies.

Even in a glorious socialist paradise, it still wouldn't make financial sense to modify the existing railways for european-sized trains. The modifications that France recently made were about subtle changes to platform clearances in the order of cm. In order to accomodate the much larger european trains, entire tunnels would have to be rebored, hundreds of bridges rebuilt (raised by over 2ft), tracks relaid (passing trains would need to pass further apart), stations rebuilt (the gap between two platforms would need to be wider) and overhead wiring raised. The cost would be gigantic, regardless of who was paying.

And of course, you couldn't make such drastic modifications to the infrastructure while the trains were still running on it.

 

[Crispy75]

Really? Darn. Here, we have electrical outlets for your devices, even in regional trains.

Funnily enough, the door-handle carriages he's complaining about have been thoroughly upgraded with aircon and power outlets at every seat. It's just the doors (and general vestibule area) that betray their 1970's heritage. Still the fastest deisel train in the world btw

 

[frankie_baby]

It is. I agree that the government needs to make investments too. I'm hoping the high speed rail project will speed up a lot of the problems we are facing with our infrastructure and services - but even then, it's frankly embarrassing when my girlfriend has automated opening doors in Sweden and then she has to pull the damn handle from outside the train when she is in the UK. There is no excuse for a train running directly between two capitals -in this case Cardiff and London- to have such poor carriages in place.

To be fair the trains with the outside handles the intercity 125 is anincredibly good train, there's a reason why they are still in service after more than 40 years its just how good they they are

 

[Dougald]

To be fair the trains with the outside handles the intercity 125 is anincredibly good train, there's a reason why they are still in service after more than 40 years its just how good they they are

Yeah, people whose train service consist of pacers (which are literally just bloody buses on train tracks) would kill to get an old 125

They are getting long in the tooth now though

 

[Lucumo]

Funnily enough, the door-handle carriages he's complaining about have been thoroughly upgraded with aircon and power outlets at every seat. It's just the doors (and general vestibule area) that betray their 1970's heritage. Still the fastest deisel train in the world btw

You didn't just get completely new carriages? Is that even worth it?

 

[frankie_baby]

You didn't just get completely new carriages? Is that even worth it?

Refiting probably costs a fraction of all new carriages, the trains are being replaced on their current routes next year with brand new ones though the 125s will probably still be used on some other routes somewhere for a good few years replacing some shitty trains

 

[Lucumo]

Refiting probably costs a fraction of all new carriages, the trains are being replaced on their current routes next year with brand new ones though the 125s will probably still be used on some other routes somewhere for a good few years replacing some shitty trains

Hm...you have even worse trains? But from what you are saying, you are getting some new ones at least (well, at least a route connecting two major cities). Makes me wonder how it is in other countries. No AC in summer seems like a pain though.