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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
Well, that's right from the books except its a spear, and the guy who did it was a cruel individual. He got his just desserts though.
Squid_Vicious
Member
Not sure if this was posted yet, but it's small articles like this that will have people believing it was straight up rape.
http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/04/was-th...of-thrones-the-most-disturbing-in-tv-history/
http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/04/was-th...of-thrones-the-most-disturbing-in-tv-history/
The point is it's more complicated than just being a rape scene, and Jaime raped Cersei and it is bad and Jaime is bad. There are character reasons that things happened the way they did that people seem to be overlooking. It's not supposed to be an awesome sex scene, it's supposed to be uncomfortable and gross. The discussion is dominated by "Jaime raped Cersei, wtf. That's different from the books and is bad," and people being unhappy that a character they liked did something they don't like. How about we ask why did he do this? What was going through his head? What was going through Cersei's head? How will this affect things going forward?
It's like they shot a different scene and then edited it down to what we got.
Kadayi
Banned
Why link to Reddit citing an article when you can link to the article itself?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...waldau-on-jaime-lannister-s-darkest-hour.html
Read the whole thing though.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
The show is not the book series.
It's okay for the show to portray Jamie as a rapist son of a bitch, because the creators of the show are clearly telling a different story than the one book readers have experienced.
It will be interesting to see whether they attempt to redeem Jamie from now on, if they'll let him continue to fall into depravity - or just shades of grey.
That is a good thing, because it gives us something new rather than a cinematic retread of written materials. There's always the books for the book readers.
It's okay for the show to portray Jamie as a rapist son of a bitch, because the creators of the show are clearly telling a different story than the one book readers have experienced.
It will be interesting to see whether they attempt to redeem Jamie from now on, if they'll let him continue to fall into depravity - or just shades of grey.
That is a good thing, because it gives us something new rather than a cinematic retread of written materials. There's always the books for the book readers.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
No, that's just how you interpreted it.
I still can't believe this is being discussed. The amount of violence and disturbing imagery in this show and it is sexual violence that gets people riled up? I'll keep that in mind the next time people fondly remember their favourite torture scenes.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Has it really been "years" since Ned and the girls came to King's Landing at this point? Or was that a mess up in the script when Tyrion said that Joffrey had been torturing Sansa for years?
casuallyhardcore
Neo Member
I am kind of enjoying their scenes. They are the only two people that don't care about the politics, and who's ruling what, or have some huge role in the future. They are innocent bystanders trying to survive in westoros.
vedderlax11
Neo Member
Well put, and frankly, the scene in the show was more interesting than in the book.
real_slime
Banned
yeah and i haven't read the books, but i read the relevant excerpt to the scene and it is much more like the complex and dark encounter that the show people are trying to paint what they put on screen as. what i read from the book makes sense - what i saw on the show makes no sense and it bothers me a lot that they decided to turn something which originally wasn't a violent rape into one AGAIN (like they did with the dany scene - and she's 14 in the books, i know, but she isn't in the show). it's just fucked up how they seem to jump at the chance to turn things into assaults on women and then beg off criticism by saying it's complex when it really isn't on screen.
casuallyhardcore
Neo Member
I guess since Arya is a fan favorite for the show watchers, they're going to try to milk this odd duo.
The last time they did this, with the change to Dany's wedding night, they really didn't effectively deviate from the books despite the very different tenor that it established for her and Drogo's relationship. So I don't really expect them to use this event to massively change the upcoming progression of Jaime and Cersei's relationship, despite the fact that this moment is going to hang over everything she does.
Seems like they are going to use the opportunity to explore the wars affect on the countryside, something I remember people were disappointed we didn't see more of last year. I wouldn't be surprised if through their story this season we get our first knowledge of Frey's being targeted, and perhaps we will also see the duo encounter the aftermath of some Frey massacre done by you-know-who.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I have a feeling they'll have the Drogo/fighting pit scene at the end of this season.
Sure, Mereen took fucking forever in the books, but I don't think they'll draw it out on the show.
Sure, Mereen took fucking forever in the books, but I don't think they'll draw it out on the show.
Steelyuhas
Member
Shame that the scene at the coffin according to Graves was supposed to come across as consensual eventually because they didn't execute that well. Obviously it's a disturbing scene in the book as well, but it didn't come off the as Graves intended.
Other than that I thought it was another very strong episode. Dance's Tywin continues to just be incredible.
Few other random notes:
-Bringing a knife to a lance fight! As Greenwald pointed out that was very Indiana Jones like, very cool and I thought the entire last scene was pretty great (launching the collars was a smart move)
-Ser batman of the fingers. Embrace it I guess lol
-I like what Kit is doing with Jon so far, I assume he'll lead a party to Craster's in the next couple of EPs.
-Davos writing a letter to the Iron Bank is a nice direction for that story line, and Shireen is all sorts of adorable.
Other than that I thought it was another very strong episode. Dance's Tywin continues to just be incredible.
Few other random notes:
-Bringing a knife to a lance fight! As Greenwald pointed out that was very Indiana Jones like, very cool and I thought the entire last scene was pretty great (launching the collars was a smart move)
-Ser batman of the fingers. Embrace it I guess lol
-I like what Kit is doing with Jon so far, I assume he'll lead a party to Craster's in the next couple of EPs.
-Davos writing a letter to the Iron Bank is a nice direction for that story line, and Shireen is all sorts of adorable.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
It's not. They're doing Drogon eating the little girl at the end of this season (either Episode 8 or 10 based on who directed the actor involved).
The fighting pit won't be until the end of next season.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Okay, so according to this fan made timeline that seems VERY well researched, it looks like a maybe year and a half pass between Lady getting put down (the first sign of trouble between Sansa and Joffrey) and the Purple Wedding. Ned's beheading and the PW are close to exactly a year apart.
So at least by book timing, that line was wrong.
"In TV history". Of course out comes the hyperbole.
I'm guessing episode 10. They like doing dual meanings for their episode titles when they can, and episode 10 is titled The Children. So I'm guessing children of the forest and children killed by dragons.
I think more time is passing in the show relative to the books out of necessity. The TV format means we are a year between seasons which already makes it feel longer, the actors are aging (both old and young). It only makes sense for more time to be passing, and that's fine I think.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
My predicts:
4: She takes charge of the city
5: She rules shit, harpies are killing unsullied
6: She considers marriage
7: No Daenery
8: Drogo eats the little girl, the dragons are shackled, Khaleesi realizes she has to marry to keep the peace in Mereen
9: Marriage, and fighting scene pit, Drogo appears and flies away with Daenery.
If not, then I expect to see the fighting pit scene early on next season, which I don't think would be nearly as satisfactory (no way they drag it out until the very end of the next season).
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Yeah, that would be my guess, too. It would be a good spot to end the season on for her.
No way is all of that happening in one season. Also, Episode 9 is confirmed to be entirely set at the Wall.
They're not going straight from Drogon eating a little girl to Dany flying off on her, without even setting up any of the politics in Meereen or the impending war in the area. That's just preposterous.
Really? And then they'll have no story left for Dany next season, or even the season after that?
Squid_Vicious
Member
My only problem with the "alter rape" scene was that it was just so poorly done. It was not well directed or acted. It just came across as awkward.
In the books it was shocking but also in a weird way passionate. I thought HBO would have been more careful with it, given that it was one of the more pivotal scenes in the series, but it was just rushed and disappointing.
In the books it was shocking but also in a weird way passionate. I thought HBO would have been more careful with it, given that it was one of the more pivotal scenes in the series, but it was just rushed and disappointing.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
They fast forward things and bring her on a more direct warpath towards Westeros.
I just don't think the show will survive having Dany spending the rest of this season, AND the next in Mereen doing shit all that matters to the show watchers.
Cersei's rape scene is full of FAIL of the highest order. No, the whole "but that's coherent with Jaime, child-pushing personality" do not fly either. Jaime's arc is a redemption arc. And brilliant one, at that. Cersei's rape does not add "grey-ness" nor "struggle" to his character evolution at all because it is flat out incoherent with all his prior behaviour.
If Jaime would perform any other kind of despicable act (more child-murdering, more arrogance, whatever), I would buy that angle, but Jaime started to discover whatever little good was left inside him precisely by being moved by the amount of sexual violence and "lack of chilvarly" that women had to put up in this world (as illustrated by Brienne's travails). And now he himself takes part on that as well. It is bad writting, point blank.
In short, this is a clusterfuck, no matter how you look at it, and I am growing each time more and more tired with how David & Benioff shat the bed with character development in the name of turning characters into pallatable, easy to categorize TV tropes (Stannis the religious fanatic being manipulated by temptress) and / or getting cheap shock value scenes (like Loras getting on with a random male prostitute rather than being faithful to Renly's memory).
And this is far from being the first time that they have fucked up a character's arc. Every single character that has getting improvement over the books has come due to the actor playing them (Tywin, Olenna, Oberyn...) while every single character bed-shitting has been created as a result from the showrunner's writting (Stannis, Renly, Danerys, and now Jaime).
Sorry, but in D&B I trust no more. It is not a question of translating the book faithfully or not. I have loved many of the changes that the show has made, plot-wise. This is a question of their personal character preferences and phobias are getting translated into the show, and its quality and coherence is suffering for it. Fuck that noise.
If Jaime would perform any other kind of despicable act (more child-murdering, more arrogance, whatever), I would buy that angle, but Jaime started to discover whatever little good was left inside him precisely by being moved by the amount of sexual violence and "lack of chilvarly" that women had to put up in this world (as illustrated by Brienne's travails). And now he himself takes part on that as well. It is bad writting, point blank.
In short, this is a clusterfuck, no matter how you look at it, and I am growing each time more and more tired with how David & Benioff shat the bed with character development in the name of turning characters into pallatable, easy to categorize TV tropes (Stannis the religious fanatic being manipulated by temptress) and / or getting cheap shock value scenes (like Loras getting on with a random male prostitute rather than being faithful to Renly's memory).
And this is far from being the first time that they have fucked up a character's arc. Every single character that has getting improvement over the books has come due to the actor playing them (Tywin, Olenna, Oberyn...) while every single character bed-shitting has been created as a result from the showrunner's writting (Stannis, Renly, Danerys, and now Jaime).
Sorry, but in D&B I trust no more. It is not a question of translating the book faithfully or not. I have loved many of the changes that the show has made, plot-wise. This is a question of their personal character preferences and phobias are getting translated into the show, and its quality and coherence is suffering for it. Fuck that noise.
That is just wildly unfair to me. The notion that the showrunner's obviously haven't done anything good is fairly insulting. Forget all the added scenes of Tywin and Olenna (even Jaime) that weren't in the book adding to their characterization, it's obviously only the actors responsible for making them more interesting.
Anton Sugar
Member
This. It's great that they thought it would be this complicated scene that would make you think critically about the characters, but what we got was Cersei saying/sobbing "No" and Jaime forcing himself inside of her.
I don't know why they thought that we'd lose the complexity of the scene by omitting "Quickly, put it in me, do me". It's still two privacy-deprived twins banging on the altar of their dead son. Plenty to discuss there.
bearythebear
Member
I miss sweet Tommen with his cats and hatred for beets. Would have been adorable.
I agree! I still like the show though but I think it could be much better written. Everything else is top class apart from the writing and pacing.
casuallyhardcore
Neo Member
I'm getting this weird feeling they're going to make the Hounds last moment an honorable self sacrifice for the girl. Where Arya is conflicted about leaving him behind.
I think some of you need to take a step back and consider what effect this event had on the audience.
Go ask someone who has never read a single page in the books. Ask them what happened in last night's episode.
I would wager that Ygritte head-shotting that little boy's father or Sandor Clegane stealing from the kindly old man are more often cited.
Jaime and Cersei's relationship is screwed up. Incest is a disgusting behavior between humans, and I really don't think the creators of the show intended for Jaime Lannister to humiliate or defile his sister. It was more a "Fuck me already you stupid bitch." moment. Did they fail in conveying that? Absolutely. But you have to be pretty dense if you equate the show's portrayal of attempted rape in episode 1 (the tavern scene) with what Jaime and Cersei were doing.
Before anyone drags out that stupid straw man "Are you saying she was asking for it", I despise rape in any context. I don't think it should be portrayed unless it is absolutely pivotal to a story, and I never enjoy watching it on this show.
However, as an audience member, I did not think less of Jaime Lannister as a result of what he did. He still comes across as the same desperate, depraved individual who was taught a valuable lesson on loyalty, friendship, and the dangers of overplaying his "position".
If Jaime's redemptive arc to that point in the SHOW can be summed up in "Helped Brienne escape from a bear" then it wasn't much of an arc to tear down.
Wow. He nearly killed a child, killed dozens of Stark men and his own cousin, and helped someone escape from a bear. What a guy. Brienne is the decent character as portrayed in the show, not Jaime.
Go ask someone who has never read a single page in the books. Ask them what happened in last night's episode.
I would wager that Ygritte head-shotting that little boy's father or Sandor Clegane stealing from the kindly old man are more often cited.
Jaime and Cersei's relationship is screwed up. Incest is a disgusting behavior between humans, and I really don't think the creators of the show intended for Jaime Lannister to humiliate or defile his sister. It was more a "Fuck me already you stupid bitch." moment. Did they fail in conveying that? Absolutely. But you have to be pretty dense if you equate the show's portrayal of attempted rape in episode 1 (the tavern scene) with what Jaime and Cersei were doing.
Before anyone drags out that stupid straw man "Are you saying she was asking for it", I despise rape in any context. I don't think it should be portrayed unless it is absolutely pivotal to a story, and I never enjoy watching it on this show.
However, as an audience member, I did not think less of Jaime Lannister as a result of what he did. He still comes across as the same desperate, depraved individual who was taught a valuable lesson on loyalty, friendship, and the dangers of overplaying his "position".
If Jaime's redemptive arc to that point in the SHOW can be summed up in "Helped Brienne escape from a bear" then it wasn't much of an arc to tear down.
Wow. He nearly killed a child, killed dozens of Stark men and his own cousin, and helped someone escape from a bear. What a guy. Brienne is the decent character as portrayed in the show, not Jaime.
Kadayi
Banned
And yet the writers are all the same........there's no improv going on.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Coster-Waldau said that scene was in the books...Martin pretty much has to say something now.
casuallyhardcore
Neo Member
that would be very interesting to see. They need to stretch some of this thing out ome how since they cut so much early on.
Duane Cunningham
Member
I was kind of thinking that too a few weeks ago and somebody pointed out that there's quite a bit they'll probably keep...
- siege of/conquering Meereen
-"betrayal" by Jorah at some point around here
- decision to stay there and rule, probably because of news that Astapor and Yunkai have gone to hell and/or some scenes with Barristan convincing her that Westeros will be even tougher and she needs queen training.
-Sons of the Harpy or some watered down TV equivalent local resistance starts popping up, and there are Dany loyalists too. MAYBE they're "Shavepates" in the show, maybe not. They'll probably spend some time on this conflict one way or the other.
-Hizdhar is probably that handsome young slaver that the camera keeps coming back to in last night's episode. So they'll need to develop him.
-Then the Dragons need to eat some farmers livestock at least one more time and have Dany pay some gold for it.
-THEN the kid gets eaten. And I bet that's the shocking ending for Dany for the season.
Then there's still the wedding, and that'll probably be next season, and THEN the pit scene. And I bet they'll have tons of Dany/Daario bullshit all throughout this to drag it out even further.
HyruleGuardian
Member
This times a MILLION.
Yes, Jaime raped Cersei. Yes, part of Cersei wanted it. No, just because part of Cersei wanted it doesn't make it any less of a rape. Yes, this is change from the book. Yes, it darkens Jaime's character a bit more.
But is it inconsistent with Jaime's character? Absolutely not. Jaime has both light and dark in him, in spades. That's always been consistent. In the show, Jaime feels incredibly hurt by Cersei's rejection of him. He needs to know he still has Cersei... in his mind, he's taking what is his. Even though it is rape, it's not rape in Jaime's mind.
Being on a redemptive arc doesn't mean the moral compass swings only one way. Some of the greatest characters in fiction are incredibly complex, capable of great deeds and great atrocities, all in the same day. There are people like this in the real world.
From the show's perspective, they're making Jaime into even more of a Walter White - capable of good and bad and bad and good. But whereas White Walt truly "broke bad", I think we can still be hopeful that Jaime's character overall will swing in a different direction.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Bryan Cogman will save us next week.
Cornballer
Member
Conkerkid11
Member
It's unfortunate that rational posts like this won't prevent 20 more pages of complaints from book readers who believe they know what's best for the show because they read the same books as the writers.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Yeah. Cogman's episodes are generally among the very best of each season, and he almost never messes up the character moments.
Well said by both of you. Jaime hasn't changed as much as we think he has (in the show). He has been humbled by losing his hand (and by extension his power over others), but what's changed more than him as a character is our understanding of him, as we have spent more time with him. He will always be a bad guy, although one with some honor who we can often times sympathize with. He is not a good guy. He is a complex character.
I think a lot of people are conflating the character we know from the books, the one we have spent 5 books getting to know, with chapters of inner monologues and seeing things from his point of view first hand, with the character we have barely spent three seasons of a TV show with, often times in only one scene in any given episode.
Kadayi
Banned
^So much this.
People are making out like they've sullied a saint. They might of turned a corner, but he was always prone to mis-steps especially when it come to his complex relationship to Cersei.
I don't doubt next episode he's going to be sick as a dog over what he's done and that will greatly impact events going forward for both characters.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Nope. Jaime deplores rape, and has on multiple occasions expressed his disgust at the mistreatment of women. He wanted to stop King Aerys from raping his Rhaella. He came close to killing Robert after he forced Cersei on multiple occasions. He got his hand cut off in part due to preventing Brienne's rape. He executes the men who raped Pia.
Where in this does raping his own sister fit? It doesn't, at all. A few of those examples happened in the show so this isn't book exclusive stuff. Jaime has been quite consistent on rape, before and after pushing Bran.
No one is arguing Jaime's moral compass has gone from bad to good; the series is not that simple. But there are certain things Jaime wouldn't do - Book Jaime and Show Jaime - and rape is on the list.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
He hated her so much in that moment, that he was willing to forgo his morals to punish Cersei while taking care of some of his sexual needs. It kinda fits the character of a broken man who was rejected by the one woman who was the cause of all his torment.
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