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[Kadayi]

It's a Jaime POV chapter, but it's a third person narration for that portion.

They're all third person narration. But that hasn't stopped many of them being unreliable.

There's nothing to suggest that the third person narration is unreliable. It's not as if there is a Cersei passage later where she recounts the tale in a different way or something either.

I didn't realise you'd read all the books. Care to tell us how it ends? Given GRRM has filled in D&D about the main narrative arcs for all of the characters it might be something that might not come to light until later on, but needed to be in there because we're not experiencing the unreliable narrator. It might not be something that comes up unless say Jamie dies and Cersei hears of his death for instance?

Personally I'm of the opinion it's likely a creative decision in order to highlight the end of their relationship and the ramifications from that assault will play out over the rest of the season, but at the same time I thought it was an interesting theory.

 

[Iksenpets]

Man, I don't think what Jaime did is necessarily out of character — he's completely sick in the head when it comes to Cersei and is so wrapped up in the idea of the significance and purity of their relationship, that I could see him failing to even grasp the idea that she could not want him — but from a meta perspective of what it does to the narrative, it's awful. I mean, first off there are a significant number if viewers who will just never forgive rape, and regardless of what the director or Nikolaj says, that was rape. Say what you will about how pushing Bran out the window was worse, this is just going to hit some people harder. And now this is just going to loom over everything in Cersei and Jaime's relationship. When he finds out about how unfaithful she's been, it's no longer a loyal man being betrayed, it's a rapist slut-shaming his victim. When he burns Cersei's letter, it's not longer breaking off a toxic relationship, it's a rapist discarding his victim. It completely changes the power dynamic in their relationship from one where he is the victim of her constant manipulation and is always dragged down by her, to one where, no matter what she does, we always know that Jaime can ultimately seize power if he wants it.

I kind of hope that the scene was filmed more closely to the books and then made rapier in the editing room, just so that I don't have to reeeeeaaally worry about those comments from the director saying this was consensual by the end.

Rest of the episode was excellent though.

 

[DrForester]

 

[Moff]

It almost feels like slander towards GRRM at this point.

I think there have been enough links posted to interviews and comparisons in the unsullied thread that make clear to everyone who is interested in the topic, that GRRMs version differs from what we have seen on the show.
invading the unsullied thread just seems wrong for me, even if the cause seems important to some.

 

[PhoenixDark]

D&D are missing the point, then. You don't make a character "complex" by simply balancing good acts with (horribly and irredeemably) evil acts. That's a sign of a bad writer. A good writer knows that a complex, morally grey person will be consistent and will have believable and consistent motivations. GRRM is exceptionally good at writing such characters, but D&D obviously aren't. Jaime isn't complex because he rescues maidens from bear pits but also defenestrates children; he's complex because of the motivations behind those acts.

This is the best point on the issue, IMO, and something many miss with respect to what "a complex character" actually means. I've long doubted D&D understood this.

Jaime does or tries to do a variety of heroic things from the minute he's knighted. In many ways his redemption arc is him rediscovering his honor, not gaining it for the first time.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Has Oberyn been called the Red Viper in show? I can't remember.

I was hoping that would be mentioned as Tywin discussed his knowledge of poison, but alas.

I want Oberyn to stay

 

[3N16MA]

I would hope so. It certainly seemed like rape to me. But it wouldn't terribly surprise me if they just brushed it off.

Well according to Graves it was consensual by the end.

Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.

I'm going to assume that based on the directors take on that scene it will not be brought up as a rape later on. It sure seemed like rape to me and they did a poor job of actually portraying what they wanted to.

 

[-griffy-]

Well according to Graves it was consensual by the end.



I'm going to assume that based on the directors take on that scene it will not be brought up as a rape later on. It sure seemed like rape to me and they did a poor job of actually portraying what they wanted to.

And according to the showrunners Jaime forced himself on her and it was a horrifying and uncomfortable scene.

It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see obviously Joffrey's body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this and she's saying no, and he's forcing himself on her. So it was a really uncomfortable scene and a tricky scene to shoot.

The director also calls it a rape in a separate interview.

This is so dysfunctional and bizarre." She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, "He's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her.

 

[Valhelm]

 

[Cybit]

Except that's not how it happens in the book. It's never rape in the book.

I'm pretty sure the exact quote is "No, not here" from Cersei.

Ah, here it is

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons...” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

At best, it is hella ambiguous. She's definitely not up for it at the beginning.

Also, among things in this show that are "messed up", this is the thing that makes people upset? Hell, the lack of consent is arguably the second most messed up part of the act, next to the fact they're doing it next to their dead son's corpse. Won't get into the ridiculous amount of death and far more terrible things that happen on a regular basis in this world. Isn't there a point where a pregnant woman gets stabbed in her stomach?

This series is about subverting expectations and deconstructing modern fantasy tropes. It seems like a lot of the issues with this change are because they did it so jarringly and to a beloved character; even though the series has absolutely no problem completely annihilating expectations on a regular basis.

Also, I'd argue that they have the knowledge of where Martin was intending to go next, and with the fact that Cersei is far more likable (relatively speaking) in the show than in the books, they seem to be building towards having the King's Landing part of Book 4 be far better. That section needed Cersei to be a more likable character / easier to empathize with, and Martin tries to do that in Book 4 to no avail. I think this is one of the changes they are making with that long term goal in mind.

Talking to a friend of mine who loves both the books and the series; she approved of the changed scene because she remembers that Martin has made comments to the effect of "I wish I had made Jaime darker and Cersei slightly more likeable in the books." I can't find interviews with him saying that, but this might be the showrunners going towards Martin's modern intent. The fact that people are seeing a literal knight in shining armor who throws a kid out of a window in the first episode as a "hero" is sort of nutso.

 

[Randdalf]

I wonder how they're going to banish Jorah, when will Ser Barristan tell Daenarys that he was actually a spy?

Who the hell is teleporting all these ravens to Stannis?


I half expect Davos to get a note about Daario pissing on the ground next week.

Dragonstone is not far at all from King's Landing. It doesn't surprise me that Stannis is quick to hear about it.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"Not here" means she's uncomfortable with the location and the "sacrilege" of it, not that doesn't want to have sex. "Not here" followed by "yes, yes, quickly!" is a lot different than "no, no, stop, stop!" and forceful physical resistance. The book scene is fucked up because of the incest and the dead body nearby, not because it was rapey.

I'm pretty sure I've never seen that GRRM comment about Jaime and Cersei. Citation needed. And also, no one has ever said Jaime is a "knight in shining armour hero".

Edit: dammit I always forget to quote, anyway this post was addressed to Cybit, not Randdalf obviously.

Edit 2: ultron said it better than I could. Thanks.

 

[ultron87]

I'm pretty sure the exact quote is "No, not here" from Cersei.

Ah, here it is



At best, it is hella ambiguous. She's definitely not up for it at the beginning.

There is a huge difference between how it is presented there and how it was presented on the show. In the books this is the first moment they see each other after he gets back from the city after being gone for a long time. With that context, the "not here" transitioning to "quickly" can pretty easily be interpreted as "I'd like to have sex with you, but maybe not in a church by our dead kid?" She's objecting to the setting, not the act.

In the show he's been back for awhile and she's already turned his advances down. So when he forces himself on her in the sept she is objecting to the act itself, and continues to object with no consent that we can see.

 

[3N16MA]

And according to the showrunners Jaime forced himself on her and it was a horrifying and uncomfortable scene.



The director also calls it a rape in a separate interview.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

"Not here" means she's uncomfortable with the location and the "sacrilege" of it, not that doesn't want to have sex. "Not here" followed by "yes, yes, quickly!" is a lot different than "no, no, stop, stop!" and forceful physical resistance. The book scene is fucked up because of the incest and the dead body nearby, not because it was rapey.

I'm pretty sure I've never seen that GRRM comment about Jaime and Cersei. Citation needed. And also, no one has ever said Jaime is a "knight in shining armour hero".

Edit: dammit I always forget to quote, anyway this post was addressed to Cybit, not Randdalf obviously.

Edit 2: ultron said it better than I could. Thanks.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen such a comment from George before either.

 

[Cornballer]

More discussion:

- WiCnet: George R.R. Martin responds to fan’s concern over Jaime and Cersei’s scene in “Breaker of Chains”

I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

- Sam Adams weighs in over on IndieWire: Is "Game of Thrones" Obsessed With Sexual Assault?
- Alyssa Rosenberg with a response: What the rape scene on last night’s ‘Game of Thrones’ means for the show

 

[Moff]

With that context, the "not here" transitioning to "quickly" can pretty easily be interpreted as "I'd like to have sex with you, but maybe not in a church by our dead kid?" She's objecting to the setting, not the act.

if you look at the dialogue in the show, though, it looks like she is definitely objecting to the setting, too.

-Why have the gods made
me love a hateful woman?
-Jaime, not here, please.
-Please.
- Stop it.
- Stop it. Stop.
- No.
-Stop it.
-Stop.
-Stop.
- Stop. It's not right.
- ( Grunts )
-It's not right.
-It's not right.
- I don't care.
- ( Crying )
- Don't.
- I don't care.
- Don't. Jaime, don't.
- I don't care.

the execution of the scene is definitely bad, though, i dont think its necessarily a problem of "bad writing", though, as many have said here. both the actors and the director have said it was a difficult scene, we dont really know what was going on the set that led to that poor execution, that definitely resembles rape more.

and that the scene blacked out before cersei could go on with the whole "give it to me, brother you are home now", definitely doesnt help. but maybe they thought that was actually too bad writing to include it in the show.

 

[Valhelm]

GRRM basically said he's upset with how the scene was portrayed. That doesn't really come as a surprise.

 

[Anton Sugar]

GRRM basically said he's upset with how the scene was portrayed. That doesn't really come as a surprise.

Haha, IMO, his comments feel like a very, very polite "...yikes."

 

[Morrigan Stark]

More discussion:

- WiCnet: George R.R. Martin responds to fan’s concern over Jaime and Cersei’s scene in “Breaker of Chains”

Thanks, was just gonna post this. This is quite telling:

In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

GRRM is very careful to not outright say D&D messed up, but you can tell that he thinks it. Heh.

 

[-griffy-]

GRRM basically said he's upset with how the scene was portrayed. That doesn't really come as a surprise.

That's now really how I read his comments. They come across as pretty rational and acknowledge the different place the characters are in on the show compared to the equivalent scene in the book, and how that would necessitate it to play out differently, as well as the difference in format between the two mediums. His wording comes off purely neutral to me.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That's now really how I read his comments. They come across as pretty rational and acknowledge the different place the characters are in on the show compared to the equivalent scene in the book, and how that would necessitate it to play out differently, as well as the difference in format between the two mediums. His wording comes off purely neutral to me.

He's careful to remain neutral, and he'll obviously never say outright that the showrunners screwed up, but there is a rather telling subtext of disappointment and disapproval. Especially with this line: "The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.”"

 

[3N16MA]

In the book it seems like Cersei wants it just not in front of their dead son and the location is too risky. She is basically saying "l want you but let's get out of here and go somewhere more safe." By the end of it she does not care and wants Jaime as much as he wants her.

In the show it seems like she really is not in the mood and wants nothing to do with it. She has already denied him once and seems in no hurry to take him back. She says "not here" once and the rest sounds like her begging him to stop.

 

[shadowkat]

I don't know. GRRM sounds neutral but the apology at the end makes me feel like he doesn't really approve of the change.

 

[Incandenza]

The soundtrack this season has been fucking awesome. Everything sounds so ominous and chilling.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I understand that they can't make the show exactly like the book, but there isn't a scene from last nights episode that came from the book, everything was made up by HBO and they are changing the characters.

It's so frustrating to watch because there is no good reason for most of it.

 

[Valhelm]

D&D have a weird interest in rape. Dany's explicitly consensual wedding night scene was changed to rape as well.

 

[real_slime]

Interesting response from GRRM.

I think his ostensible neutrality is possibly genuine, but he does say a few things which indicate that he realises there is a significant change in the action of the scene from the book passage, and that it changes what the scene means quite drastically. It's also possible that he doesn't want to shit all over the work of people he must know quite well by now, and which he has an equal stake in the success of.

 

[Enosh]

I'll never understand some of the timeline changes

I mean was Jamie talking with joffrey about the book and rushing to him when he was chocking really worth the hassle of having him be back at KL so much sooner when it effected scenes like this and the whole not giving a fuck about Sansa despite his promise to catelyn? I don't get what exactly was gained by having Jamie return to KL some 2 or 3 episodes sooner

 

[Liquidsnake]

Dude I am so happy Little Finger is back in the fold. Every line he speaks all of his inflections are really a work of genus.

I hope you all see it too.

 

[Anton Sugar]

D&D have a weird interest in rape. Dany's explicitly consensual wedding night scene was changed to rape as well.

Yeah, never understood why that was changed. I was shocked to read the book and come across that scene, it is empowering versus the version HBO gave us.

 

[Cybit]

Hrm, based on Martin's response - that changes my thoughts on it.

Admittedly, among things that have happened on the show / are going to happen on the show, it's not the "bridge too far" for me; the show is about awful things happening in general. Part of me is a little skeptical as to why "this" change is the "the creators are terrible / awful people" as opposed to the far darker things that happen throughout the series.

I do think they're going to try to go down the route of using this as what breaks up Jaime and Cersei, and have Jaime be far darker (for now) and Cersei be a little easier to empathize with to help set up Book 4 better.

In a weird way, the change in scene was "logical" per the timeline shift (which was necessary due to the fact that actors & actresses, well, age), as Martin explains, but HBO has best be prepared to explore the logical consequences of the change. I think trying to stick strictly to the book for those two would be a mistake. Just let the natural consequences & changes play out as they should.

As for the Dany wedding night; I am not sure modern TV audiences would take a 13 year old giving "consent" much better. Without the narration / ability to get into people's heads, I do understand that certain parts will probably need to dramatically change to make sense.

I always took this scene in the book to be far darker than Martin intended it apparently; I'm now just cautiously curious as to how this will play out throughout the series. I'm already imagining they will combine Books 4 & 5 into a single "book" and split it amongst the next two seasons.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Martin's response is basically "don't look at me." And I don't blame him. He can't outright say "that was a bad decision" without kneecapping the showrunners.

 

[Iksenpets]

D&D have a weird interest in rape. Dany's explicitly consensual wedding night scene was changed to rape as well.

As much as I dislike this change, the Dany/Drogo change never bothered me. The show was just more honest about the fact that in a society with arranged marriages like that, wedding nights are basically rapes. Changing Drogo to not care about consent definitely makes him a darker character, but it fits with the sort of guy who would buy his bride. And Dany giving consent is a product of her being brainwashed by a society that says this is ok, so her denying consent in the show is just making her viewpoint more relatable to modern viewers, and again, being more honest about what's really happening. And I don't think the rape there poisons the relationship, since it's a pretty unhealthy relationship anyway. Dany loves Drogo because it's more better than being his sex slave and is a path to some form of power over her life. I saw her relationship with Drogo as really poisoning her attitudes towards men altogether, and leading to the debacle with Daario, who she's always comparing to Drogo in her head. The power dynamic shifts between Jaime and Cersei when he rapes her, but even without the rape, Drogo always held power ultimately with Dany, prior to his death.

 

[Forsaken82]

Well according to Graves it was consensual by the end.



I'm going to assume that based on the directors take on that scene it will not be brought up as a rape later on. It sure seemed like rape to me and they did a poor job of actually portraying what they wanted to.

That is the only problem I have with the scene... Non book readers are going to view Jaime as a horrible character now (which is so far from his character in the book at this point) after he has for the most part been done extremely well on the show from his turn as a King Slaying Incestual family man to a knight trying to reclaim his honor. And here he goes, in a scene that screams rape, the only thing that Non book readers will see is "so much for his reclaimed honor/glory... he just dropped back down 20 pegs."

Many will see a scene like that and immediately write a character like that off because rape is such a vile scenario.

 

[Ephidel]

Watching it now, although I did read most of the thread already.
Well, we have a new way to find Shae if her ship had not yet sailed ("Bar the gates of the city. Seize every ship in the harbor").

And we have Littlefinger. Oh gosh, I saw the comments about Aiden Gillen's "new accent" and I figured it would just be another of his weird modulating ones. I couldn't have imagined anything like this. It sounds like he needs a crate of soothers. Or like he took his misty mysterious ship thing too much to heart while he was waiting in the bay all that time and needs an eye-patch and a peg leg :|

We're all liars here.
[...]
But you're safe now. I promise you that. You're safe with me

Oh Littlefinger.

Tywin and Tommen are pretty awesome. New Tommen has potential.
The rape scene was ... both not as bad, and worse, than I expected it to be, somehow.

Might book passage across the Narrow Sea. Fight as a sellsword. Second Sons, could be. Seems like a good fit for me.

You know, if he were to end up there instead of as a Gravedigger that could be interesting. Tyrion, Jorah, and Sandor trudging towards Meereen with Brown Ben Plum - shame a place full of fire breathing dragons would be a horrible place for him to end up.
Would get in the way of the theories that set him against un-gregor though I guess.
(Not overly sure about the 'I'm no thief'/'Man's got to have a code' and the 'I thought you weren't a thief'/'I wasn't' moment though. Bit of a rapid turnaround)

We're willing to use blood magic to put you on the throne, but we're not willing to pay men to fight?

<3 Davos.
Shireen too. I really like TV show Shireen. Their teacher/student friendship is sweet.

I'm somewhat baffled by how Moles Town can be skeevier than I imagined a town full of whores would be :|

So many of the character interactions are great. Oberyn/Tywin, Tyrion/Podrick, Arya/Sandor.
And I also continue to be impressed by the new and improved Jon Snow, actually acting like he has a brain and actually being somewhat of a leader. And more than that, when he has an opinion he is actually explaining his reasoning for things instead of just insisting upon it. Shame by the time we hit the AFFC/DWD content more fully he'll probably have devolved into a moron again.

I think that just makes it worse that That Scene has tainted this episode though :|

Meereen is ... bigger than I thought.
And as much as I knew it wouldn't happen, for a moment there I really wanted Dany to proclaim fire was her champion like her father. Her 'do I have a champion? no, not you. no, not you either. still no... yes, you' was a bit dumb but at least Daario still has his creepy daggers.

 

[SamVimes]

It seems like every time the show creators are changing stuff from the books and it doesn't involve Tywin it's always much worse.

Oh well.

 

[The One and Done™]

Cersei scene was rape. Period. Unbelievable people think it wasn't.

 

[LordCanti]

They're all third person narration. But that hasn't stopped many of them being unreliable.



I didn't realise you'd read all the books. Care to tell us how it ends? Given GRRM has filled in D&D about the main narrative arcs for all of the characters it might be something that might not come to light until later on, but needed to be in there because we're not experiencing the unreliable narrator. It might not be something that comes up unless say Jamie dies and Cersei hears of his death for instance?

Personally I'm of the opinion it's likely a creative decision in order to highlight the end of their relationship and the ramifications from that assault will play out over the rest of the season, but at the same time I thought it was an interesting theory.

They aren't all third person narration though :/ First person narration is used as well. This is in the same chapter as the previous line I posted:

Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. I loved Tyrion. I was good to him. Well, but for that one time . . . but the Imp did not know the truth of that. Or did he?

It starts third (Jaime had not wanted to believe it) and then transitions to first (He knew the boy was mine. I love Tyrion. I was good to him)

If there are examples of a third person narration being unreliable in this series, I would welcome them.

Martin's response is basically "don't look at me." And I don't blame him. He can't outright say "that was a bad decision" without kneecapping the showrunners.

Somewhere out there, GRRM is fuming. I can feel it.

 

[Electric_ Cthulhu]

I'm probably one of few people who liked that Episode better than the one depicting the purple wedding.

Much has been said about the 'rape' issue and I don't have much to add. What really matters is the perception of the non-readers and they seem to agree that it was at least executed poorly by the director and showrunners. I don't think D&D are very rape fixated per se.

GRRMs statement is very diplomatic. I don't think he is very happy with the outcome but is clever enough not to say it in public.

I liked they Dany scene. Hurling the shackles over the walls of Mereen was a nice touch in my opinion. And I loved the scenes with Arya and the Hound. Maisie Willaims continues to impress. Aiden Gillen on the other hand... not so much.

 

[RedShift]

They aren't all third person narration though :/ First person narration is used. This is in the same chapter as the previous line I posted:



It starts third (Jaime had not wanted to believe it) and then transitions to first (He knew the boy was mine. I love Tyrion. I was good to him)

If there are examples of a third person narration being unreliable in this series, I would welcome them.

The biggest example is that Sansa recalls the Hound kissing her during the Battle of the Blackwater in her internal narration, but that never happens. She also slightly misremembers the name of Joffrey's first sword. GRRM has come out saying this is intentional.

I don't think this scene is a case of unreliable narrator though.

EDIT: Oh, right, third person. Can't remember which those two were.

 

[Eidan]

Complete nonsense. Considering all the context of the circumstances (Cersei being Cersei, it was a reunion and they desperately missed each others, etc.), it made sense, whereas this rape doesn't.:

Nope. It was pretty dumb in the book, and honestly made more sense in the show.

 

[DrForester]

AV Club did a nice write up on the issue.

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

I think between this and the GRRM story that this is new thread worthy, but I'll let those who moderate us and the show only thread make that call.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Nope. It was pretty dumb in the book, and honestly made more sense in the show.

Your repeating it as if it were fact doesn't make it true, you know.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

D&D have a weird interest in rape. Dany's explicitly consensual wedding night scene was changed to rape as well.

"Explicitly consensual"? I don't have the text handy, but that's the last way I'd describe that sequence.

 

[Eidan]

Your repeating it as if it were fact doesn't make it true, you know.

Would it make you feel better if I just slapped "IMO" at the end?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

AV Club did a nice write up on the issue.

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

Great article. Thanks for posting.

"Explicitly consensual"? I don't have the text handy, but that's the last way I'd describe that sequence.

The text has been posted earlier, and yes, it was explicitly consensual, and we have GRRM on the record to say it was.
Edit: oh you were talking about Dany/Drogo, not Jaime/Cersei. Sorry.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

"Explicitly consensual"? I don't have the text handy, but that's the last way I'd describe that sequence.

In the show, Drogo says "no" as to get her to stop covering herself. In the books, he asks "no" as a question, as to give Dany the power to do things in her own time.

 

[jett]

How can people not understand it's called the purple wedding because he chokes to death? And because his face turns purple.

 

[LordCanti]

The biggest example is that Sansa recalls the Hound kissing her during the Battle of the Blackwater in her internal narration, but that never happens. She also slightly misremembers the name of Joffrey's first sword. GRRM has come out saying this is intentional.

I don't think this scene is a case of unreliable narrator though.

EDIT: Oh, right, third person. Can't remember which those two were.

Yeah I don't remember either. Personally speaking, I like a third person narration to be reliable. I think it is for GOT, but I can't say that I've looked into it deeply enough to know one way or the other.

How can people not understand it's called the purple wedding because he chokes to death? And because his face turns purple.

Who doesn't understand?