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[Faddy]

Comes with Dragons, Warriors who don't fear death, Dothraki (known for the raping and brutality), Iron Islanders (known for their pillaging) and she the hero!? (Show of course adds Tyrells and Dorne to try and balance it out/they cut out Aegon so who else do they side with!?)


That's not how this works...her character is a deconstruction of the Chosen One. She is given a sad background and mostly seems like a good person, but doesn't always make the best decisions (Killing 163 Noblemen...also the Nobleman she burned was from Astapor). Her arc in a Dance with Dragons is choosing between peace and compromise (the hard way) or through fire and blood (the easy way). Now she mostly keeps the peace, however by the end of ADWD, she seems to choose Fire and Blood.

What? By the end of ADWD she is shitting in a field having done pretty much nothing other than bang Daario for 10 chapters. Her capabilities as a leader are in doubt but it never really gets to any sort of villainy. The other slaver cities are attacking her, there isn't really much prospect of peace unless she allows slavery.

And in the show she burns a Mereenese noble then later she goes back to Hizdar and he is on his knees begging not be burnt and she tells him she will marry him.

Dany has shown traits of being The Mad Queen in the show and Tyrion was clearly unsettled by the carnage brought to Westeros by her Dothraki hoard. Her insistence that Jon bend the knee is another tip to her being power hungry. So the argument that the show has whitewashed her seems pretty unreasonable as well.

 

[Basileus777]

Not sure a feminist like Martin would have his main female character be a villain. But I do think she'll be viewed as a villain by the Westerosi when she arrives.

Given how he has written Cersei post-ASOS, I'm not sure why you think Martin isn't capable of it.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Given how he has written Cersei post-ASOS, I'm not sure why you think Martin isn't capable of it.

Oh, he's certainly capable of it. Who knows? Just seems unlikely to me. Especially since she's probably going to be seen as villainous by the common folk versus perfect Prince Aegon.

 

[Faddy]

Given how he has written Cersei post-ASOS, I'm not sure why you think Martin isn't capable of it.

If you really think about it all the female POVs post ASOS are awful. Like all the leading women are written as stupid or naive.

 

[WaffleTaco]

What? By the end of ADWD she is shitting in a field having done pretty much nothing other than bang Daario for 10 chapters. Her capabilities as a leader are in doubt but it never really gets to any sort of villainy. The other slaver cities are attacking her, there isn't really much prospect of peace unless she allows slavery.

And in the show she burns a Mereenese noble then later she goes back to Hizdar and he is on his knees begging not be burnt and she tells him she will marry him.

Dany has shown traits of being The Mad Queen in the show and Tyrion was clearly unsettled by the carnage brought to Westeros by her Dothraki hoard. Her insistence that Jon bend the knee is another tip to her being power hungry. So the argument that the show has whitewashed her seems pretty unreasonable as well.

You need to re-read her chapters, she starts the book by having one of her dragons murder a little girl, and continually feels guilty about it throughout the book. By her last chapter she can't even remember the girls name, she believes that all of her efforts have been wasted, and that her peace was for nothing. (Now technically Meereen is at war, but not necessarily due to the actions she created.)

I apologise, I forgot about her burning a random person, and thought you meant the owner of the Unsullied from Season 3.

If you really think about it all the female POVs post ASOS are awful. Like all the leading women are written as stupid or naive.

This isn't true, Melisandre, Asha, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Dany...maybe more I am forgetting.

 

[Azzanadra]

If you really think about it all the female POVs post ASOS are awful. Like all the leading women are written as stupid or naive.

I would disagree here, with the characters noted by the poster above. In general by ADWD we see POV characters usually failing against their respective situations/antagonists, including the male ones. Heck Asha (unlike Yara) is sensible and mature, offering the ironborn peace and prosperity symbolized by her chests of food- but when Euron brings the fancy new toys, its not a failure on Asha's part, rather the reader realizes that the ironborn are actually just that stupid. I should probably stop talking about the ironborn now, they are the greatest disappointment in the show- even moreso than Dorne.

Dany in particular is interesting, I don't know if this was intentional but she seemed to have it easy compared to Jon in ADWD- he always had to work for his victories, coming at great cost in the end whereas it looks like Dany's failure to rule Mereen will be rewarded by an army of 100,000 Dothraki.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

i'd forgotten that cersei was perspective character in feast

what a missed opportunity, that stuff sucked

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Cersei chapters were easily my favourite *shrug*.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Arya is amazing I don't even wanna hear it

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Best chapters were the eddard chapters in a feast for crows. Really brought the book back from a bad state.

 

[Turin]

I'm one of those awful people that genuinely enjoyed Brienne's chapters in Feast.

 

[Atraveller]

I'm one of those awful people that genuinely enjoyed Brienne's chapters in Feast.

But what about Brienne chapters in Dance?

 

[Turin]

But what about Brienne chapters in Dance?

You mean Jaime's chapter? It was interesting but I was bummed we didn't get a resolution.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

"Is game of thrones post apocalyptic"

https://youtu.be/aTUbAK1DsOc

Okay what have I just watched!!!

Just got to watching this. I think the COTF reveal in the show last season debunks this. Somehow the COTF with their magic with the first men created all those relics, and then afterwards swore off magic since it lead to the creation of the Others.

 

[Atraveller]

You mean Jaime's chapter? It was interesting but I was bummed we didn't get a resolution.

No I meant her fruitless quest to find Sansa.

 

[Fuzzy]

No I meant her fruitless quest to find Sansa.

Which was in Feast, not Dance.

 

[Turin]

No I meant her fruitless quest to find Sansa.

She only shows up in Dance from Jaime's point of view to lead him to the BWB.

 

[Atraveller]

Which was in Feast, not Dance.

She only shows up in Dance from Jaime's point of view to lead him to the BWB.

Oops

 

[CassSept]

I'm one of those awful people that genuinely enjoyed Brienne's chapters in Feast.

How

I mean, the chapter with Brienne in Duskendale is easily the dullest chapter in the entire series.

Cersei is probably the best AFFC pov character, even with her incessant whining about Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Personally, I'd say apart from Ned Theon's chapters in ADWD are the best in the series, he has a fantastic arc.

 

[jfkgoblue]

How

I mean, the chapter with Brienne in Duskendale is easily the dullest chapter in the entire series.

Cersei is probably the best AFFC pov character, even with her incessant whining about Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Personally, I'd say apart from Ned Theon's chapters in ADWD are the best in the series, he has a fantastic arc.

I found Cersei's descent into madness fascinating and reading her inner thoughts as she comes up with one failure after another is amazing.(Myrish swamp notwithstanding)

Brienne AFFC chapters are just awful. "I'm looking for a high-born maid of three and ten" over and fucking over. The Septon was the best part of her arc, but even he couldn't save it.

 

[Real Hero]

i'd forgotten that cersei was perspective character in feast

what a missed opportunity, that stuff sucked

Whaaat it was great seeing her unravel

 

[Creamium]

The Cersei chapters in Crows were great, the Brienne ones... were not. Low point of the series

 

[Real Hero]

The brienne chatpers work better if you read the ball of beasts version, so they are spread out a bit more

 

[Bubble]

Jaime has the best chapters in Feast hands down, but the best female POV in Feast is definitely Cersei. Arianne's POV is also not that bad

Brienne's chapters in Feast are so utterly pointless. The reader already knows that Sansa is stuck in the Vale with Littlefinger, so the reader knows that Brienne won't find her because she is looking at the wrong place.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

huh -- i just assumed everyone didn't like cersei's chapters

i guess i'm an outlier here. i can't make an actual argument, I can barely remember the specifics. I just remember thinking the cersei in my mind was more interesting pre-Feast than the one Martin portrayed in Feast, but that might be on me I guess.

 

[WaffleTaco]

.

Dany in particular is interesting, I don't know if this was intentional but she seemed to have it easy compared to Jon in ADWD- he always had to work for his victories, coming at great cost in the end whereas it looks like Dany's failure to rule Mereen will be rewarded by an army of 100,000 Dothraki.

She didn't really have it easy though, it just seems like she did. She's constantly fighting her values and trying to to make the right decision. This includes comprising endlessly. The peace only lasts in Meereen because she was there, because there are people who are trying to break the peace.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I'm one of those awful people that genuinely enjoyed Brienne's chapters in Feast.

They're some of Martin's best writing

 

[DeSo]

I think it's the actress but I want Dany to fucking die.

 

[Betty]

I think it's the actress but I want Dany to fucking die.

I don't want her to die, but this unstoppable force she's become got old ages ago, losing one dragon will bring some much needed tension to her outlook on things.

 

[GonzoCR]

They're some of Martin's best writing

I'm in a weird spot where I agree with this yet at the same time find them unbearably dull. It's kind of like, when I see someone quoting from them I think "yeah that was really good", but I can't be bothered to actually go back and read them. The fact that Brienne's search is completely pointless is also really annoying; we know where Sansa is the whole time, so it just drags on.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Brienne's chapters are to show what happens to the common people during war. Maybe there should have been less of them, but I haven't re-read hers in a long time.

 

[elrechazado]

How

I mean, the chapter with Brienne in Duskendale is easily the dullest chapter in the entire series.

Broken man speech and world building.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Briene chapters were great if only for more Podrick. Podrick is in my top 10, and I'm still genuinely distressed that he might be dead in the books.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I'm in a weird spot where I agree with this yet at the same time find them unbearably dull. It's kind of like, when I see someone quoting from them I think "yeah that was really good", but I can't be bothered to actually go back and read them. The fact that Brienne's search is completely pointless is also really annoying; we know where Sansa is the whole time, so it just drags on.

They're not all bangers and a bunch of them go on for too long, but I think that second part is true for most chapters in the last two books. Nevertheless I think they are both great and valuable for expanding the scope of Martin's world and exploring the effects of the war and what it means to rule. Dany's Mereen predicament is genuinely fascinating to me.

If we're talking about chapters where nothing happens, there's an entire Davos chapter where he first gets to White Harbor, learns a bunch of shit that we already knew, and in the end decides to go meet Manderly anyway even though his mission his futile, just as he set out to do from the start. I found its inclusion baffling. I'm reading the entire series for like the fourth time at the moment, and while ASOS is easily the best, I think anything would be a come-down after that. There are definitely some pacing issues especially early on in both Feast and Dance, but the combined boiled leather reading order helps a lot. For my money though I still think ACOK is the worst in the series because it's just a slog getting through the Catelyn chapters and Arya's bouncing around to a lesser degree. It gets good in the last third though. But Catelyn's endless self-flagellation, woe-is-me internal monologue combined with her lack of agency is not fun or interesting. She doesn't develop at all, really. She's the worst POV character in the series imo.

 

[Fuzzy]

huh -- i just assumed everyone didn't like cersei's chapters

i guess i'm an outlier here. i can't make an actual argument, I can barely remember the specifics. I just remember thinking the cersei in my mind was more interesting pre-Feast than the one Martin portrayed in Feast, but that might be on me I guess.

The Cersei chapters were so good that I wished we had her PoV in the first 3 books.

 

[KahooTs]

If we're talking about chapters where nothing happens, there's an entire Davos chapter where he first gets to White Harbor, learns a bunch of shit that we already knew, and in the end decides to go meet Manderly anyway even though his mission his futile, just as he set out to do from the start. I found its inclusion baffling.

Seven books, one story, Davos's own is the road to becoming the realm's master statesman. When he persuades a natural enemy that it is in their best interest to just sit tight the chapter will have its purpose.

 

[Rixxan]

They're some of Martin's best writing

They offer excellent world building and are finely crafted, but they are tedious at the same time because the reader knows it's a fools errand

It's, almost objectively, a misstep from Martin - one of few in the series

 

[WaffleTaco]

The Cersei chapters were so good that I wished we had her PoV in the first 3 books.

I would have liked to see her PoV before she lost both her father and first born. Because of right now, she's a dumb, crazy lady

 

[duckroll]

Brienne chapters were great. Where Martin let everyone down was with Tyrion's chapters. And if we want to talk about a fool's errand, there is no bigger time waster than Quentyn's entire arc. Lol.

 

[Rixxan]

And if we want to talk about a fool's errand, there is no bigger time waster than Quentyn's entire arc. Lol.

Lol

Very true, was so satisfying when that idiot got roasted

 

[WaffleTaco]

Brienne chapters were great. Where Martin let everyone down was with Tyrion's chapters. And if we want to talk about a fool's errand, there is no bigger time waster than Quentyn's entire arc. Lol.

Tyrion's journey being as long as it is, was kinda obnoxious. I kind of like the idea of Quentyn's PoV being a deconstruction of the hero's journey, however the way it turned out was simply another character we grew attached to briefly before dying. It's almost like how the TV show was with certain characters.

On the other hand...it will be why the Martells turn against Dany, and will be an important future plot. I don't know how he could have made the chapters better besides removing them.

 

[KahooTs]

Aegon + Dany is the most natural thing to happen by a wide margin. The spanner in the works had to be substantial, hence Dorne and Quentyn.

 

[Bounceounce]

i'd forgotten that cersei was perspective character in feast

what a missed opportunity, that stuff sucked

As far as i'm concerned the vast majority of people who complain about Cerseis PoV miss the entire point of and complexity of her character, and instead are angry that she doesn't fit the mastermind or at least nor "insane" image they had picked out for her.
If someone complains about her arc and then can't tell me the point of her sex scene with Taena Merryweather (which I see all the time) I immediately don't see the point in discussing her with them.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I like the idea of Quentyn's chapters thematically more than I like reading them. They are definitely a drag and Quentyn is just kind of a boring character, which is the point, but much like with Catelyn, that doesn't make it interesting. They're just long and dull.

 

[Fuzzy]

I would have liked to see her PoV before she lost both her father and first born. Because of right now, she's a dumb, crazy lady

The only thing I probably wouldn't have liked if she was a PoV in the first 3 books would've been her reaction to constantly winning up until Joffrey's death.

 

[Speevy]

This thread has benefited from my absence.

 

[duckroll]

I was honestly fine with it being a failed mission when I first finished Feast. But that was 10 years ago and the story hasn't moved on in any significant way to make that entire character arc worthwhile, so I think it's understandable that many people have gotten rather bitter over it.

 

[The Artisan]

I mean the way they are being described in this discussion currently. All the intrigue regarding the Blackfyres are REALLY interesting for example, but if you read the series of books it isn't even a blip on the radar. In The World of Ice and Fire though, it's an entire chapter of Targ history on its own. So it's about managing expectations. The Blackfyre thing isn't remotely a major plot point in the books proper (some say "yet" but since there won't be any new books coming out.... ).

So is a world of ice and fire a novel or a book that explores the lore? that's kinda the vibe i'm getting

 

[jett]

Brienne chapters were great. Where Martin let everyone down was with Tyrion's chapters. And if we want to talk about a fool's errand, there is no bigger time waster than Quentyn's entire arc. Lol.

Quentyn was trolling.

Why the hell was he a POV character. Why. A complete waste of time.

Tyrion's chapters were just boring.

 

[Fuzzy]

So is a world of ice and fire a novel or a book that explores the lore? that's kinda the vibe i'm getting

It's not a novel.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921478