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[Creamium]

- Inside Game of Thrones: Dany's Homecoming

This vid showed a few new outfits (at least I think they were not seen before)

Also Dinklage says him being Hand under a woman "creates some complications and it's very lovely to play that out". Tyrion has a shot at becoming Jorah 2.0

Nothing you list there was ever earned by her character in any way. Let's just look in broad strokes at her time in Braavos:

All she did in S5 was fail and constantly question and disobey Jaqen to the point that he had to blind her as punishment. She then spends two episodes of S6 on the street, gets beaten up by the Waif a couple times, and Jaqen just shows up like, "OK- you're cool to come back and train again now." Cue up a couple more lost stick fights to the Waif, and, all of a sudden, she's ready for a new contract! Which, she fails to execute, of course.

Next, knowing full well that either the Waif or Jaqen himself will be coming for her, she just goes galavanting around town in broad daylight throwing big bags of money around to book passage out of town. She then allows a stranger to approach her, never even considering that it might be a faceless assassin, gets her belly sliced open from left to right and then stabbed in the abdomen multiple times.

Let's face facts: she's dead. Her character is dumb as a box of rocks at this point. She's constantly failed in her training, questioned Jaqen at every turn and is openly defying the clearly defined rules of an ancient order of fucking assassins that strikes fear in the hearts of everyone on the globe. When Ned was this stupid, he paid for it with his life. When Robb was this stupid, he paid for it with his life. When Jon was this stupid, he paid for it with his life.

Arya? Nah. She's rewarded for being stupid. Based on what we've seen to this point, we have no reason to believe that she'd be anything other than the shittiest faceless assassin in history, but she gets to pass go, collect $200, and become a master assassin because reasons. And Jaqen is totally cool with her thumbing her nose at the Many-Faced God and just doing what she wants, killing who she wants, etc.- also, because reasons. IN the span of a couple episodes, she goes from losing stick fights against a teenage girl to making Frey pies and wiping out entire houses.

I largely liked S6 and thought it was a great turnaround from the lackluster season before it, but Arya's arc in Braavos was a low point throughout for me. That girl's got so much plot armor on her at this point, I can't figure out how she's able to walk.

Great post. Exactly how I felt after my s5&6 binge. It was so disappointing to see what they'd done with Arya

 

[Faddy]

If you don't understand what I'm getting at when I reference a character moment being properly earned or not properly earned, then we're not speaking the same language.

What did Arya learn in seasons 5 and 6 that make her any more qualified to be wearing faces and making Frey pies now than she was at the end of season 4? Based on what we were shown, pretty much anyone can walk into the House of Black and White, do some Q&A about who you are and who you aren't, scrub some floors, wash some corpses, get hit with a stick a bunch, and come out the other side an unstoppable assassinating machine.

Wearing a face for the purpose of impersonating someone evidently requires nothing more than possession of the face itself. Apparently, anyone can do it. No magic and no attunement with the Many-Faced God is necessary, because Arya was never on board with any of it. All she did was openly question both Jaqen's teachings and the established rules of this ancient order every step of the way.

Discipline? Not necessary. Infiltration techniques? Never even talked about. Fighting skills? Evidently, not necessary- as she could never manage to compete with the Waif in anything resembling a fair fight.

So, knowing that- why even go to Braavos at the end of season 4? Just cut off some faces and get to fucking work. Arya is a badass assassin not because of anything she learned or earned while in Braavos, but simply because D&D say so, because revenge and The North Remembers and what-fucking-not.

I notice you left out the end of my point because you clearly don't understand what I am getting at. The story has all sorts of unearned, undeserved, inconsistent outcomes.

This is about qualifications or levels, the story is about people doing things because they have the will and ability.

No one can just wander into the service of The House of Black and White. People have to earn a coin. And if anyone can change faces why have we only seen people associated with the Faceless Men do it. There is clearly more to it than just cutting off a face like Hannibal Lector. It seems like a much stronger glamor, that ties part of the deceased soul to the wearer. Kind of like the transformation masks in Majora's Mask.

 

[WriterGK]

my first reaction was that it was a flashback and we'll see how she kills him, but after he said winter has come and stopped the women from drinking I knew what was up.

Yeah indeed. Arya has become so awesome.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Comming into this thread so I don't accidentally spoil Eurons gift in the other thread.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I notice you left out the end of my point because you clearly don't understand what I am getting at. The story has all sorts of unearned, undeserved, inconsistent outcomes.

I left it out in order to stay on topic. I understand what you're saying. The thing is- the show's failings in prior seasons don't excuse failings in later ones. I also disagree with the examples you named, but if we start getting into that we're just losing ourselves in the weeds, eh?

No one can just wander into the service of The House of Black and White. People have to earn a coin. And if anyone can change faces why have we only seen people associated with the Faceless Men do it. There is clearly more to it than just cutting off a face like Hannibal Lector. It seems like a much stronger glamor, that ties part of the deceased soul to the wearer. Kind of like the transformation masks in Majora's Mask.

You're describing the way it should be after seasons 5 and 6. What I'm saying is that the way things progressed doesn't square up with you describe. All Arya had to do to get into Fight Club was wait it out for a bit. The show then spends an inordinate amount of time focused on games of truth or dare, scrubbing floors and stick fights when it should have been addressing what you've written above. Wearing the faces should be a special skill. It should require successful training and dedication.

But, evidently, it requires none of those things, if we have only what we saw to go by.

All it requires is being Arya.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Kinda liked how the episode shown a different side with the Lannister soldiers.

 

[Faddy]

I left it out in order to stay on topic. I understand what you're saying. The thing is- the show's failings in prior seasons don't excuse failings in later ones. I also disagree with the examples you named, but if we start getting into that we're just losing ourselves in the weeds, eh?



You're describing the way it should be after seasons 5 and 6. What I'm saying is that the way things progressed doesn't square up with you describe. All Arya had to do to get into Fight Club was wait it out for a bit. The show then spends an inordinate amount of time focused on games of truth or dare, scrubbing floors and stick fights when it should have been addressing what you've written above. Wearing the faces should be a special skill. It should require successful training and dedication.

But, evidently, it requires none of those things, if we have only what we saw to go by.

All it requires is being Arya.

Why are these failings? Isn't the most admired thing about GRRM's story how he subverts tropes. Part of that is having an inconsistent and unjust world like the one we live in. I could come up with a 100 examples from the books of people being unjustly rewarded, it is a huge theme of ASOIAF.

Back to Arya. Why should changing faces be difficult? Jaqen does it with ease after Harrenhall. Why should the usefulness of the ability be matched by difficulty. That is a very standard way of thinking about things. She gained the knowledge of how to change faces, posing to kill Meryn, why should she lose that ability? Wouldn't that be a larger inconsistency that Arya couldn't easily change faces while Jaqen could.

Maybe the real secret of the faceless men is not revealing they are faceless men when caught. If they were all master assassins with stealth attributes of 100 why was Jaqen in the black cells? Maybe that is why they spend all their time on the game of faces.

 

[bengraven]

There are two much more important shots in the teaser

Spoiler

Muthafucking Arya looking at Nymeria!?

Can you imagine

Spoiler

her leading an army of wolves into Kings Landing after Dany wiped it clean...only a few scant stragglers in the Red Kee including a paranoid Cersei?.

 

[Kettch]

Kinda liked how the episode shown a different side with the Lannister soldiers.

Probably helps that I have no idea who Ed Sheeran is, but I thought the scene worked fine as well.

People raise legitimate issues with the long term writing of Arya, but I'm really feeling like this show at this point is doing Jaime dirty. Far from the guy he's become in the books, all he seems to do in the show is hang around next to Cersei vaguely disproving of everything but not doing anything about it like a one handed John McCain. I'm sure he will turn on her at some point but he's sure taking his sweet time. I would have thought blowing up half the city and causing their son's suicide was a last straw kind of thing.

I guess given they literally cleared out all the King's Landing characters except Cersei last season if he wasn't there Cersei would have no one to talk to except Gregor. It was really notable when Euron showed up on his own and you realize that's literally everyone from that plotline in the scene, him, Cersei, Jaime and a zombie.

I think most of us Jaime fans have long since made peace with the fact that his show character is trash. The one bright side of this is that we might not get his story line in the books spoiled, considering that he's in a completely different place both literally and figuratively.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I want to see the two weeks Arya spent living as Walder Frey.

 

[John Dunbar]

based entirely on the show, how do the faceless men even make any sense? there's like two people working there and one of them was grossly incompetent and now dead. braavos was a mistake, it's nothing but trash.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Is Arya overpowered now?

 

[BFIB]

So I'm assuming they are leaning towards Jon being a Targaryen?

If so, wasn't a big point of season one about how all Baratheon's have thick black hair, Targaryens are more of a light blonde, with the Lannister's being a darker blonde? Its what lead Ned to start looking closer at the lineage of Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella in the first place correct?

So wouldn't that make Jon possibly part Baratheon?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Why are these failings? Isn't the most admired thing about GRRM's story how he subverts tropes. Part of that is having an inconsistent and unjust world like the one we live in. I could come up with a 100 examples from the books of people being unjustly rewarded, it is a huge theme of ASOIAF.

Still pretty sure you and Latvian Hitman may be talking about two different things.

I wonder if all the shocking deaths/twists would really be all that shocking if you (proverbial you, not YOU) paid attention. Ned's death was perhaps the exception but that needed to be that shocking to establish the world that we're in, although Joff was already known to be unpredictable.

Robb's, though--you could see that coming, if you were looking out for it.

Their fates were imbued with their own character and the consequences of their actions. There is a logic to it. Ned wanted to be decent man in an indecent time. Robb followed his dick and insulted a crotchety old man with seedy connections. Etcetera.

Arya just seems to be getting off pretty easily after learning some bo staff, how to mostly suck at being blind, how to not escape a guild of assassins, and how to not be and then be Arya Stark. It's just sloppy, probably one of the sloppiest storylines in the show, TBH.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Is Arya overpowered now?

Shes practically a Mary Sue

So I'm assuming they are leaning towards Jon being a Targaryen?

If so, wasn't a big point of season one about how all Baratheon's have thick black hair, Targaryens are more of a light blonde, with the Lannister's being a darker blonde? Its what lead Ned to start looking closer at the lineage of Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella in the first place correct?

So wouldn't that make Jon possibly part Baratheon?

Last season confirmed, through Brans vision, that Jon was the son of Aegon and Neds Sister. He gets his hair from the Starks. Ned took him as his own bastard.

 

[John Dunbar]

So I'm assuming they are leaning towards Jon being a Targaryen?

If so, wasn't a big point of season one about how all Baratheon's have thick black hair, Targaryens are more of a light blonde, with the Lannister's being a darker blonde? Its what lead Ned to start looking closer at the lineage of Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella in the first place correct?

So wouldn't that make Jon possibly part Baratheon?

i don't remember any of that. baratheons just have black hair, others come in all colours.

 

[gspec]

Shes practically a Mary Sue



Last season confirmed, through Brans vision, that Jon was the son of Rhaeger and Neds Sister. He gets his hair from the Starks. Ned took him as his own bastard.

FTFY

 

[Burt]

Last season confirmed, through Brans vision, that Jon was the son of Aegon and Neds Sister. He gets his hair from the Starks. Ned took him as his own bastard.

Rhaegar - Aegon was one of the babies that got killed by the Lannisters at the end of the rebellion. They didn't explicitly say it either, but the only piece of the puzzle that's missing is a big Rhaegar-shaped hole. Regarding the original question, if Lyanna had been getting knocked up by the timeframe-appropriate Baratheon, there wouldn't have been a rebellion at all.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

FIFY

Rhaegar - Aegon was one of the babies that got killed by the Lannisters at the end of the rebellion. But regarding the original question, if Lyanna had been getting knocked up by the timeframe-appropriate Baratheon, there wouldn't have been a rebellion at all.

Oh Rhaegar

Shit here I am telling a coworker that it was Aegon who knocked Lyanna up -_-

 

[Angry Grimace]

So I'm assuming they are leaning towards Jon being a Targaryen?

If so, wasn't a big point of season one about how all Baratheon's have thick black hair, Targaryens are more of a light blonde, with the Lannister's being a darker blonde? Its what lead Ned to start looking closer at the lineage of Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella in the first place correct?

So wouldn't that make Jon possibly part Baratheon?

This was like the major plot reveal from last season, dude.

He's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Why are these failings? Isn't the most admired thing about GRRM's story how he subverts tropes.

We're not discussing the books, we're discussing the show. And we're not discussing tropes, we're discussing poor story progression and characterization.

Back to Arya. Why should changing faces be difficult?

I didn't say changing faces should be difficult. I said learning to change faces should be difficult. If it weren't, then why isn't everyone doing it?

Look- I feel like Arya's entire arc in Braavos was botched from a storytelling perspective and made a couple lengthy posts detailing why I felt that way. Basically, I think the whole arc was predictable, repetitive and lacked creativity, and I don't think her recent accomplishments were earned in any way during her time in Braavos.

So far, the major counterpoints I've seen from you are:

- Yeah, but she did those things that you're saying weren't earned. Let me list them for you.
- Here are other examples of bad writing from earlier in the show, therefore it's all good.

Sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree and let this thread resume it's normal course.

 

[KahooTs]

I wonder if the show is going to make Euron a dragon rider, and the gift he's coming back to Cersei with is one of the dragons.

 

[Fuzzy]

Plus, casting for this show doesn't care about hair colour.

Maybe Stannis' seed wasn't that strong?

 

[Johnlenham]

What are those chains on the bookshelves for? I'd assume they were for locking up the books each night but you don't need that many chains for that.

How does it work? Do the chains have writing on them to identify where the book goes?

Presumably more valuable books were chained to the shelves to prevent anyone walking away with them.

All library's used to have books chained to the walls like that to stop people stealing them back in the day. For example

The loose ones made no sense atall, but hey plots got to move on somehow.

I wonder if the show is going to make Euron a dragon rider, and the gift he's coming back to Cersei with is one of the dragons.

hes going to try and capture and bring back the dwarf I imagine.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Last season confirmed, through Brans vision, that Jon was the son of Aegon and Neds Sister. He gets his hair from the Starks. Ned took him as his own bastard.

The show has confirmed Lyanna as one parent, but has yet to confirm Rhaegar as the other. It's coming, though, obviously.

 

[Dany]

The show has confirmed Lyanna as one parent, but has yet to confirm Rhaegar as the other. It's coming, though, obviously.

What. that was the entire point of the finale last year lol. That Rhaegar is Jon's dad

 

[Faddy]

.

If you are not going to discuss things honestly then I'll leave it at that.

 

[mantidor]

What. that was the entire point of the finale last year lol. That Rhaegar is Jon's dad

The show has barely mentioned Raeghar, one of my friends in my viewing party thought Jon was the son of Robert lol

 

[Latvian Hitman]

What. that was the entire point of the finale last year lol. That Rhaegar is Jon's dad

Call me a loon if I missed something obvious- but was Rhagar's name even spoken in the finale? We've all known the R+L=J thing forever, but for show-only folks, I thought the point was revealing that Jon was Lyanna's kid and not Ned's, thus clearing Ned's good name and proving that he was not a whoremonger during the rebellion.

Like I said- if I missed something regarding Rhaegar, just chuck it at me. I'll eat my share of crow.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

The show has confirmed Lyanna as one parent, but has yet to confirm Rhaegar as the other. It's coming, though, obviously.

Maybe it was Ser Arthur Dayne.

 

[Speevy]

Call me a loon if I missed something obvious- but was Rhagar's name even spoken in the finale? We've all known the R+L=J thing forever, but for show-only folks, I thought the point was revealing that Jon was Lyanna's kid and not Ned's, thus clearing Ned's good name as a wartime whoremonger.

Like I said- if I missed something regarding Rhaegar, just chuck it at me. I'll eat my share of crow.

Yes.

Rhaegar's name is spoken in the finale. Rhaegar hid Lyanna away in the Tower of Joy, and had Ser Arthur Dane and his men guarding her.

 

[Moff]

give me those sweet Bran flashbacks

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Yes.

Rhaegar's name is spoken in the finale. Rhaegar hid Lyanna away in the Tower of Joy, and had Ser Arthur Dane and his men guarding her.

Good point! But nothing about him being Jon's dad, correct? I mean, as far as the show is concerned, we've got nothing more than a quick smirk from Littlefinger to go by regarding any idea that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar and held against her will, right?

Pretty sure there's a reveal yet to come that will need to spell this all out, otherwise the show-only folks aren't going to see the connection.

 

[Speevy]

Good point! But nothing about him being Jon's dad, correct? I mean, as far as the show is concerned, we've got nothing more than a quick smirk from Littlefinger to go by regarding any idea that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar and held against her will, right?

Pretty sure there's a reveal yet to come that will need to spell this all out, otherwise the show-only folks aren't going to see the connection.

I mean, if you're a show-only person, you're meant to know that Jon is not the son of a tavern slut as Ned had told everyone, and since the Starks don't do the incest thing, you're meant to know that he is not the son of Ned Stark either.

So (by show logic) he's the son of Lyanna Stark and an unnamed character.

Lyanna outright says "He'll kill him if he finds out. You know he will."

Since Robert wouldn't kill his own flesh and blood, we're meant to assume the child was not Robert's. And since she was put there on Rhaegar's orders, it's a safe assumption that the child is Rhaegar's.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I mean, if you're a show-only person, you're meant to know that Jon is not the son of a tavern slut as Ned had told everyone, and since the Starks don't do the incest thing, you're meant to know that he is not the son of Ned Stark either.

Jon is totally going to bone his aunt.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I mean, if you're a show-only person, you're meant to know that Jon is not the son of a tavern slut as Ned had told everyone, and since the Starks don't do the incest thing, you're meant to know that he is not the son of Ned Stark either.

So (by show logic) he's the son of Lyanna Stark and an unnamed character.

Lyanna outright says "He'll kill him if he finds out. You know he will."

Since Robert wouldn't kill his own flesh and blood, we're meant to assume the child was not Robert's. And since she was put there on Rhaegar's orders, it's a safe assumption that the child is Rhaegar's.

No- I get that. But there was a line or two of her dialog you couldn't make out right before she says "He'll kill him if he finds out..." This is D&D we're talking about here. I'd be expecting another reveal of some sort. I highly doubt that the showrunners feel like they've revealed Rhaeger being the father to the masses just yet.

give me those sweet Bran flashbacks

Pretty much.

Jon is totally going to bone his aunt.

Targs will be Targs...

 

[Speevy]

Jon is totally going to bone his aunt.

But he's a secret Targaryen. When you're a secret Targaryen, you can totally bone your aunt, on the back of a dragon.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Good point! But nothing about him being Jon's dad, correct? I mean, as far as the show is concerned, we've got nothing more than a quick smirk from Littlefinger to go by regarding any idea that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar and held against her will, right?

Pretty sure there's a reveal yet to come that will need to spell this all out, otherwise the show-only folks aren't going to see the connection.

Jusy about everyone besides Robert has had but good things to say about Reagar. Including Ned. I dont think he kidnapped and raped her.

 

[Moff]

as if anyone watching the show would remember a line Littlefinger dropped a few seasons ago. The Tower of Joy was confusing for many, some thought this was Neds kid. Most who know about Rhaegar being the father probably read up on it online to clear up the confusion. It was not really handled well in the show. A detail like that works nicely in a book but you can't just place a scene like that in an episode, make it seem important and not spell out what really happened there. I don't know how they could have done it any better without making it completely stupid and riuning it, though. As a book reader I really liked the ToJ scene.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

But he's a secret Targaryen. When you're a secret Targaryen, you can totally bone your aunt, on the back of a dragon.

And naked.

 

[kirblar]

I actually like the loose chains in context, it conveys that no one's actually afraid of theft, as we see w/ Sam pulling off his mission without a hitch.

 

[Gigglepoo]

And naked.

Duh. How would a dragon even wear clothes?

 

[Robdraggoo]

Why would Ed have a problem letting meera and bran through the wall even if he wasn't bran stark, they just let thousands of wildlings through not too long ago.

 

[John Harker]

We're not discussing the books, we're discussing the show. And we're not discussing tropes, we're discussing poor story progression and characterization.



I didn't say changing faces should be difficult. I said learning to change faces should be difficult. If it weren't, then why isn't everyone doing it?

Look- I feel like Arya's entire arc in Braavos was botched from a storytelling perspective and made a couple lengthy posts detailing why I felt that way. Basically, I think the whole arc was predictable, repetitive and lacked creativity, and I don't think her recent accomplishments were earned in any way during her time in Braavos.

So far, the major counterpoints I've seen from you are:

- Yeah, but she did those things that you're saying weren't earned. Let me list them for you.
- Here are other examples of bad writing from earlier in the show, therefore it's all good.

Sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree and let this thread resume it's normal course.

Why do you keep saying "should?"
You don't know the mechanics of this world.

Thoros of Myr gets drunk and says a bedtime nursery rhyme and people come back from the dead. Shouldn't that be hard?

Magic is coming back to the world in ways people don't understand. Warg blood runs in her veins. There's plenty of elements you can throw together to as to why she can do what she can do. That's not really the takeaway though, is it?

She's become who she was born to be.
And it's cool to watch.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Jusy about everyone besides Robert has had but good things to say about Reagar. Including Ned. I dont think he kidnapped and raped her.

Well, we pretty much know he didn't. We're talking about the unsullied show watchers, here. I don't think many of them are too keen on their Robert's Rebellion history 101.

She's become who she was born to be.
And it's cool to watch.

Oh, Christ. Her arc in Braavos was poorly written and handled. I wrote two long posts detailing why I feel that way. You either agree that it was poorly written, or you don't. Don't quote me and reply with "She's becoming who she was born to be." That's not an excuse for shitty writing. I'm about done responding to the topic.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Why would Ed have a problem letting meera and bran through the wall even if he wasn't bran stark, they just let thousands of wildlings through not too long ago.

The last guy who let thousands of wildings in was stabbed by a half-dozen Watchers.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Well, we pretty much know he didn't. We're talking about the unsullied show watchers, here. I don't think many of them are too keen on their Robert's Rebellion history 101.

It's mentioned on the show too

 

[Speevy]

And naked.

Flying over Oldtown where Jorah can watch.

 

[usp84]

Any idea who the prisoner with the burned hand is?

 

[Ithil]

Any idea who the prisoner with the burned hand is?

Uh, Jorah. The guy with the most distinctive voice.
He's not a prisoner either, he's a patient.