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[emag]

Maybe, but is windows in it's current state designed down the core for the needs of gaming?

Yes.

 

[_Ryo_]

Hope there's a live CD version of it. Awaiting for the release.

Live CD steamOS? Doesn't make much sense, as you'd need to install the games anyway and live CDs are generally about trying the OS out without installing anything.

 

[Sentenza]

I'm honestly not sure why people keep assuming/pretending that what's available on Linux today is what will be available on SteamOS tomorrow, with barely any noteworthy addition.

 

[cyberheater]

Windows uses a negligible amount of system resources. On any modern machine, 99% of GPU/CPU resources are dedicated to the software you're running on top of the OS, not Windows itself.

Bullshit. Multiple devs have stated that even with immature drivers from AMD and nVidia that their games ran faster on the Linux platform. And that's because Linux offers a much thinner application layer and doesn't have 100's of processes running in the background that sucks up system resources.

 

[HolyBaikal]

That's too bad, as those are the types of games I would be interested in playing on a Steambox.

It is. Most of the games I am most interested in on Steam are going to be probably some of the last games to reach SteamOS or any version of Linux.

It is possible, though. Just not likely to happen in the near future unless the Steambox is incredibly successful.

It's hard enough to get Japanese games on the PC. It's going to be even harder to get them on Linux. PC is also probably getting increased support in Japan right now because of the mobile market. Phones are more popular than tablets, but tablets are also increasing in popularity in Japan, and, if I haven't heard incorrectly, are at least as popular in Japan as the West. With the increase of Microsoft mobile devices or devices running Windows software, there's becoming more reason for Japanese developers to port their games to Windows or Microsoft software. It's likely why you saw Pac-Man Championship Edition come to the Windows Store before Steam.

There's also the Western appeal of the Steam store. But I think that mobile has also been increasing interest in PC gaming in Japan.

The problem with that for SteamOS, though, is that it is between a lot of successful operating systems that may be hard to pull success from. Mobile is great for Windows PC gaming right now, particularly in Japan, because it means that many mobile developers are going to want to develop for Windows. As it is starting to inch on the popularity of iOS and Android. But SteamOS doesn't have a place in the mobile sphere, and would struggle to find a place, if it tried.

Many people also already have a Windows gaming PC, a system with millions, perhaps billions of pieces of software for it, if you count non-games and extremely obscure abandonware. Many of these people won't need SteamOS or a reason to have and install SteamOS.

This is why I kind of wish that Valve had made some kind of partnership with Google. SteamOS, with all of the benefits of both Ubuntu and Android would be a very powerful operating system that would challenge Microsoft's market dominance.

SteamOS is going to be playing a very similar catch up game to Microsoft for software support. And I do wish them to succeed, though I hope they're willing to to make that struggle. And now, they're not just in a struggle against Microsoft, but also Google and Apple for software. Perhaps Sony, as well.

I think that their best bet would be to spend millions of dollars trying to acquire as much software as possible. Whether it would be software Microsoft would normally get for their systems, software that Google would normally get for their systems, software Apple would normally get for their systems, and software Sony would normally get for their systems.

Somehow I worry that Valve has that kind of commitment. It sounds like Steam's philosophy on this so far is "slow and steady wins the race". And that they want to develop a very small niche and expand upon it. I don't think that Steam wants to make a lot of investments and partnerships and do a lot of serious disruption to multiple industries.

A partnership with Nintendo or Google would be a very good idea, though. Because together these companies could do a lot to disrupt industries and succeed.

 

[Kocolino67]

Hm, I get 404 on this page.

http://steampowered.com/steamosbeta

same result with http://steampowered.com/steamosalpha

 

[Danj]

Where's my SteamOS Valve, it's way past store update time!

 

[Interfectum]

It sounds like Steam's philosophy on this so far is "slow and steady wins the race". And that they want to develop a very small niche and expand upon it. I don't think that Steam wants to make a lot of investments and partnerships and do a lot of serious disruption to multiple industries.

This is exactly how Valve will do it and eventually succeed.

People expecting Valve to come out next year with a glitz and glamour stage show populated by celebs and music acts are in for a rude awakening. They will gain popularity from the bottom up with continuous iteration until they get it right.

I fully expect a lot on GAF to declare Steam Machines a failure next year when they don't sell as much as people think they should.

 

[ashecitism]

People are already declaring it a failure, so yeah I can definitely see "I told you so"s next year :|

Even Sweeney said not to judge this at launch, but maybe years (10 even) from now.

 

[HolyBaikal]

This is exactly how Valve will do it and eventually succeed.

"Eventually" may take 20 years or more. And the amount of success will be very limited.

That kind of philosophy for game design is very good. As well as PC digital distribution on Windows.

But for the industries they're trying to move into, it will make them completely irrelevant.

 

[Dodecagon]

My partitions are ready.

Gold

 

[thefil]

I'm honestly not sure why people keep assuming/pretending that what's available on Linux today is what will be available on SteamOS tomorrow, with barely any noteworthy addition.

If Valve has shown anything with the SteamOS/Steam Machine PR, it's that they don't do bombast. Tomorrow is a beta and a small roll out. I don't think anything new will be made available tomorrow. I think some stuff will be announced as CES (Valve has hinted they are in talks with big players that they will be discussing publicly soon), but even then will be gradually released.

Like Steam itself, SteamOS will expand (if it does expand) not with a bang, but with a whisper.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Bullshit. Multiple devs have stated that even with immature drivers from AMD and nVidia that their games ran faster on the Linux platform. And that's because Linux offers a much thinner application layer and doesn't have 100's of processes running in the background that sucks up system resources.

I have 60 processes running, and most are from Chrome. If you have hundreds running you are compromised. Seems odd most games aren't on Linux then, since it's so superior.

 

[Interfectum]

"Eventually" may take 20 years or more. And the amount of success will be very limited.

That kind of philosophy for game design is very good. As well as PC digital distribution on Windows.

But for the industries they're trying to move into, it will make them completely irrelevant.

I'm not so sure about that. When you start seeing Steam Machines pop up at $399 and $499 that have a much bigger library of games and better specs than the console competition you are going to see a massive groundswell of support. The biggest thing Valve needs to worry about is making sure the SteamOS and Steam Controller are up to par. Other than that the rest will come in time.

 

[Sentenza]

If Valve has shown anything with the SteamOS/Steam Machine PR, it's that they don't do bombast. Tomorrow is a beta and a small roll out. I don't think anything new will be made available tomorrow. I think some stuff will be announced as CES -CUT-

Wait... Do you realize that I used "today" and "tomorrow" in a figurative, non-literal sense, right?

 

[Kocolino67]

People are already declaring it a failure

Where's my SteamOS Valve, it's way past store update time!

waiting cancelled!

Spoiler

not against you, Danj - it was just fitting

//edit...btw. if the beta isn't working perfectly out of the box it must be a failure and total desaster

 

[cyberheater]

I have 60 processes running, and most are from Chrome. If you have hundreds running you are compromised. Seems odd most games aren't on Linux then, since it's so superior.

Don't worry. Once SteamOS comes out and folks see the performance advantages. Lots more will join.

 

[Nzyme32]

This is exactly how Valve will do it and eventually succeed.

People expecting Valve to come out next year with a glitz and glamour stage show populated by celebs and music acts are in for a rude awakening. They will gain popularity from the bottom up with continuous iteration until they get it right.

I fully expect a lot on GAF to declare Steam Machines a failure next year when they don't sell as much as people think they should.

That's pretty much exactly what they said. I'd guarantee people calling it a failure within the first year because it will not sell millions, but that is pretty much Valve's plan, to take a relaxed approach. A couple of quotes that might help explain it in those conversations:

As for Valve’s ambitions for the future of hardware, Coomer explained that the team isn’t necessarily looking to win over casual gamers who don’t own a PC, but instead is catering to Steam users first.

“The focus of most of this work has really been on bringing value to Steam customers,” he said. “Even if we’re only serving a fraction of them, we feel like we’ll be very successful if that fraction is having a great experience in the living room. That number will probably grow over time. We’re not even trying to push our existing users toward the living room or the TV if they don’t want to have that experience. All those customers are currently pretty happy doing what they’re doing in the den with their PCs or laptops. This is just an extra avenue for them, if they want to sit on the sofa like a lot of them do, I think. Then it’s great to have this other option through which you can access Steam. It’s not an attempt to go very far, or really at all at first, beyond our initiated customer base. We’re going to learn a bunch from the people who already value Steam really highly. We don’t feel like we have to jump exponentially outside that group just to be successful in that realm.”

“Usually, when a platform like this gets brought out, it’s a very different working method and proposition to customers,” he continued. “It looks more like a team that’s much larger than us has worked at perfecting something and finishing it, and then reducing risk as much possible and locking down that design, making it ready for a massive initial manufacturing push, spending billions of dollars on marketing. Very different from what we’re trying to do. We don’t have to be so risk-averse. We intentionally are operating this way because we think it will result in a much better product, in the short term and the long term, to be public about this, and to have it iterated with us and with partners and with users. But it lets us start small and grow over time. - IGN - How Valve Engineered the Perfect Controller

We left Valve's headquarters with the biggest, most important questions unanswered — questions that will determine whether the Steam Machine could legitimately challenge game consoles from Sony and Microsoft. Valve wouldn't tell me who the company's hardware and software partners are, what Steam Machines or the Steam Controller will cost, or which killer games might make the Linux-based SteamOS an attractive Windows alternative.

But over the course of my visit, Valve made it clear that's not the point quite yet. The team is focused on serving its existing PC customers above all else, and doing it in a relaxed fashion. "We've been speaking as if it's a foregone conclusion that everyone wants to be in the living room. That's not true, and it's great that that's not true," says Coomer. "There's a little bit of consternation around our most dedicated customers that we might try to shuttle them into a different room in the house. That's not what we're trying to do at all."

Speaking as one of those dedicated customers, I can say that what Valve has built is fairly intriguing even right now: one of the most attractive and customizable miniature computer cases ever built, and a controller with the precision — if not the feel — of a mouse. Valve admits that it has "a lot to accomplish over the next year or two" to prove that its efforts have been worthwhile, but I'm already excited for the Steam Controller. I can hardly wait till January to see what Valve’s partners have been cooking. - Verge - We play with the Steam Machine, Valve's game console of the future

 

[Kingbrave]

I have 60 processes running, and most are from Chrome. If you have hundreds running you are compromised. Seems odd most games aren't on Linux then, since it's so superior.

It has nothing to do with Linux performance and everything to do with the fact that Windows has a large market share. Why take the time to port something when Windows has a higher adoption rate.

 

[thefil]

SteamOS is going to be playing a very similar catch up game to Microsoft for software support. And I do wish them to succeed, though I hope they're willing to to make that struggle. And now, they're not just in a struggle against Microsoft, but also Google and Apple for software. Perhaps Sony, as well.

I think that their best bet would be to spend millions of dollars trying to acquire as much software as possible. Whether it would be software Microsoft would normally get for their systems, software that Google would normally get for their systems, software Apple would normally get for their systems, and software Sony would normally get for their systems.

Somehow I worry that Valve has that kind of commitment. It sounds like Steam's philosophy on this so far is "slow and steady wins the race". And that they want to develop a very small niche and expand upon it. I don't think that Steam wants to make a lot of investments and partnerships and do a lot of serious disruption to multiple industries.

I think you are underestimating the impact of the pre-existing Steam ecosystem, and [indie] developer support of Valve. Not that your assessment of Valve's slow and steady policy is wrong, I just don't think it's going to be a big problem for them. Steam is what is cool and good in gaming in a way that iOS was when Apple launched the App Store. People want to use it, and people want to be on it. That momentum will carry a lot of people through a tumultuous change (look at architecture changes on the Mac, resolution changes on iOS devices, iOS7, etc).

I could be completely wrong, of course.

 

[thefil]

Wait... Do you realize that I used "today" and "tomorrow" in a figurative, non-literal sense, right?

Nope. I interpreted your post as anticipation of a game blowout with release of the beta.

 

[TC McQueen]

Seems odd most games aren't on Linux then, since it's so superior.

Because most versions of it are too complicated for most people to use day to day, plus there's like 5000 versions of Linux out there (hyperbole here). Those two factors make Linux an unappealing platform to support, although targeting one version (SteamOS) will definitely make things easier.

 

[EatChildren]

SteamOS isn't like a console, so it's of no loss to Valve for it to launch slowly and without theatrical celebration. It, like Steam itself, as a long term service plan that will incrementally evolve. It doesn't matter how popular it is today, or even tomorrow. Once it's out that gives Valve, and everyone else, an open source distributable operating system from now until forever.

 

[SteveWinwood]

SteamOS isn't like a console, so it's of no loss to Valve for it to launch slowly and without theatrical celebration. It, like Steam itself, as a long term service plan that will incrementally evolve. It doesn't matter how popular it is today, or even tomorrow. Once it's out that gives Valve, and everyone else, an open source distributable operating system from now until forever.

nah im waiting for the npds to see if its a bomba

 

[Interfectum]

That's pretty much exactly what they said. I'd guarantee people calling it a failure within the first year because it will not sell millions, but that is pretty much Valve's plan, to take a relaxed approach. A couple of quotes that might help explain it in those conversations:

Heh, yeah exactly. I wouldn't even be surprised if Valve sold hardware directly from Steam. Hell you might even be able to trade and sell "Steam Controller codes" on the marketplace. lol

Next year is gonna be a crazy time for Valve.

 

[HolyBaikal]

I think you are underestimating the impact of the pre-existing Steam ecosystem, and [indie] developer support of Valve.

Steam is very powerful. They probably have more active users and sales than the PlayStation Network.

I still don't think that's enough make a significant impact in the hardware or OS industries, however. They need to make a concerted effort to reach out and make sure that their system gets as much software as possible.

 

[thefil]

Because most versions of it are too complicated for most people to use day to day, plus there's like 5000 versions of Linux out there (hyperbole here). Those two factors make Linux an unappealing platform to support, although targeting one version (SteamOS) will definitely make things easier.

It is getting better (on the programming end), though. A lot of the input stack has been moved into the kernel, and there is a patch going in (or has already gone in?) that adds support for a dummy graphics driver that can forward to multiple graphics drivers, etc. SDL has made huge leaps and bounds in recent years as a really good multi-platform, multi-desktop-environment way to get your graphics in resizable/maximizable/etcable window.

I'm in programming though so I have zero realistic understanding of what an average computer user can put up with.

 

[Interfectum]

Steam is very powerful. They probably have more active users and sales than the PlayStation Network.

I still don't think that enough make a significant impact in the hardware or OS industries, however. They need to make a concerted effort to reach out and make sure that their system gets as much software as possible.

They can easily use their existing developer relationships to 'encourage' a linux port. Perhaps people who support SteamOS get more front page exposure on all Steam marketplaces? Maybe developers find that more people will 'cross buy' the Windows version of a game simply because they get the SteamOS version free?

Also game engines are becoming a lot more platform independent so a lot of these games will take days or weeks to port, not months or years.

 

[Nzyme32]

Heh, yeah exactly. I wouldn't even be surprised if Valve sold hardware directly from Steam. Hell you might even be able to trade and sell "Steam Controller codes" on the marketplace. lol

Next year is gonna be a crazy time for Valve.

Indeed, its gonna be an exciting few years

 

[Dicer]

Linux users can technically run 2 versions of Steam, native and a Windows version Via wine...I'd expect the same here. Sure it's not an elegant solution and not EVERYTHING will work, but from my experience plenty of windows game WILL run, and run pretty well.

I know WoW/Minecraft in particular run soooooo much better in Linux, though that is only a few examples. i recall Skyrim running fairly badass as well, but it's been a while.

Will try this via virtual machine first just to give it a look, then decide if I want to put it on my machine straight away.

 

[UnrealEck]

I know WoW/Minecraft in particular run soooooo much better in Linux, though that is only a few examples. i recall Skyrim running fairly badass as well, but it's been a while.

I didn't know WoW and Skyrim were on Linux. This is good news.

 

[thefil]

Will try this via virtual machine first just to give it a look, then decide if I want to put it on my machine straight away.

I made my partition for this back when it was announced. I'm more hyped for this than any game I played this year.

 

[thefil]

I didn't know WoW and Skyrim were on Linux. This is good news.

They aren't. He was talking about Wine, which is a program that "translates" windows programs to Linux/Mac programs. It's dodgy and not user-friendly, but can get even many modern games running passably.

 

[ashecitism]

I didn't know WoW and Skyrim were on Linux. This is good news.

He meant through Wine. Anyway, I recall WoW having an internal linux version at Blizz.

 

[HolyBaikal]

They can easily use their existing developer relationships to 'encourage' a linux port.

Valve appears to have great relationships with many English speaking indie developers and a few very popular PC developers.

But that still leaves many portions of the industry neglected. Not just the console industry, but many major portions of the PC industry. That leaves out Mojang and Minecraft, that leaves out most popular MMORPGs and competitive online games. Important popular games like Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Tera Online, League of Legends, and so forth.

It also leaves out many indie developers other than Mojang. Such as pretty much the entire Japanese indie industry which has been based around Windows and DirectX. It has been difficult enough for localization companies to get ahold of IP and convince Japanese developers to get on Western digital distribution platforms. It will be even harder to convince those developers to get on Linux.

Whether it's Square Enix, or Namco, or Konami, or Mojang, or Blizzard, or EasyGameStation, or ZUN, it will be hard to get people to get people on your platform without actively reaching out.

It may have a metric of success within its niche. But I've never particularly been a part of that ecosystem niche. I signed up for Steam to buy Recettear and support that doujin industry that had been difficult to buy from and full of piracy for so long. The kinds of games I want to buy and play to want to use SteamOS would be games like Recettear, Touhou Project, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy XIV, Tera, Blade & Soul, Ikaruga, Pac-Man Championship Edition, and even games like Minecraft with mods.

I get the feeling that the majority of the developers of these games will not be convinced to move to SteamOS. Not if Valve continues this approach.
Speaking of which, this includes not just the Japanese industry and Japanese development. But also Korean development. And unlike Japan, the South Korean PC industry is already very mainstream. In fact, console gaming is more obscure in South Korea.

It would be good for Valve to try to appeal to the Asian market. Not just the Japanese market, but the South Korean market where PC gaming is already extremely successful.

 

[Morzak]

yep, Gabe called Linux a 'get out of jail free pass for the industry'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYxKIDGh8I#t=1568 (26m in if it doesn't take you there)

You don't think Gabe would talk linux up and rail against windows..... It's not like they have a vested in their own OS.....

Honestly I'd take these talking points from valve with a grain of salt. If it gets us improvements I'm happy, but their interests aren't to free us from Windows, they want you to have their ecosystem open on boot up and preferably never leave the Steam environment.

 

[thefil]

You don't think Gabe would talk linux up and rail against windows..... It's not like they have a vested in their own OS.....

Honestly I'd take these talking points from valve with a grain of salt. If it gets us improvements I'm happy, but their interests aren't to free us from Windows, they want you to have their ecosystem open on boot up and preferably never leave the Steam environment.

But, their interests are tangibly more in line with your interests than Microsoft's are. At least in the long term.

 

[TouchMyBox]

nah im waiting for the npds to see if its a bomba

I'm gonna wait for the inevitable 50% off sale.

 

[Dicer]

They aren't. He was talking about Wine, which is a program that "translates" windows programs to Linux/Mac programs. It's dodgy and not user-friendly, but can get even many modern games running passably.

It's not for mac at all, and it's not nearly as dodgy anymore....but as always YMMV

 

[SteveWinwood]

I'm gonna wait for the inevitable 50% off sale.

its steam right?

will be 95% off at the holidays

 

[Nzyme32]

You don't think Gabe would talk linux up and rail against windows..... It's not like they have a vested in their own OS.....

Honestly I'd take these talking points from valve with a grain of salt. If it gets us improvements I'm happy, but their interests aren't to free us from Windows, they want you to have their ecosystem open on boot up and preferably never leave the Steam environment.

Remember that their OS is open source. I'd eventually imagine that alternate store fronts will be added or users may make custom ones that start at said alternate store. There's a talk (from Variety - DICE 2013 I think) and Gabe explains its part of what they see for the future of steam. They recognise themselves as well as greenlight as being a bottleneck and intend to have the steam store as its own store but then everyone can make their own store to direct users to different content. If I recall correctly, Gabe said he would like to buy from a Yahtzee Croshaw store

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYxKIDGh8I&feature=share&t=30m15s (it makes more sense if you watch the whole thing)

 

[ashecitism]

Yeah, Gabe said they want to open up the Steam API eventually, so people can make custom storefronts and they their cut even, but I don't think it's connected to the OS being open source. Anyway, I imagine that's further down the line together with getting on mobile.

 

[TC McQueen]

I'm in programming though so I have zero realistic understanding of what an average computer user can put up with.

They want absolutely zero command prompt stuff and a simple, intuitive GUI for everything.

 

[thefil]

It's not for mac at all, and it's not nearly as dodgy anymore....but as always YMMV

I guess I meant the Crossover Games platform (which is built on wine) for Mac. You can get similar behaviour on OSX, even if it's not actually wine.

 

[Guess Who]

It's not for mac at all, and it's not nearly as dodgy anymore....but as always YMMV

There are ports of Wine to Mac.

 

[thefil]

They want absolutely zero command prompt stuff and a simple, intuitive GUI for everything.

Well yes, but what does that mean? I am four months out from a Master's degree in Human Computer Interaction and I'm not confident I could design a good user interface for a PC platform. Ubuntu is completely manageable without the command line and has made huge strides in their settings toolkit etc, but still many would call it unusable. Then there's the aspect of familiarity - the free in-store teaching at Apple Stores is a huge factor in OSX being able to get any traction at all with people familiar with Windows, and that is not a viable solution for Linux (although I bet Canonical would love to have Ubuntu Stores).

I think this question is pretty easy to answer in the mobile space, but just look at the mess of options on PC platforms and your head will spin. Nobody seems to like what OSX Lion did (and OSX is still basically that model), Windows, Ubuntu and GNOME all ended up in functionally the same place (but the nuances are enough for people to interpret them completely separately!).

Sorry, this is very off topic - I love talking about desktop environments. Valve has the advantage of operating a very restricted operation - gaming - and have already shown a disarmingly good interface for it (Big Picture).

 

[Phades]

For some irrational reason, I am envisioning a PC vs Mac commercial, but centered around the steambox and PS4. Both sitting down in front of the TV to play. Both firing up their portable devices (shield/vita) for remote play. Streaming media and what have you, then the pryo skipping through and hosing them both PR individuals down with rainbows.

The open release of the steam OS should be a game changer.

 

[xJavonta]

Hopefully by the time I'm home from work this will be out (11PM lol)

 

[HolyBaikal]

Put perhaps a bit more simply, my question is this.

Is Valve's current strategy going to lead to me being able to play most MMORPGs on SteamOS?
That is probably my most favourite "PC-style" genre.

And I personally think they may need a more "bombastic" approach to achieve this degree of success.

 

[cyberheater]

So what time is it now at Valve?