Support NeoGAF

[Lazy8s]

Argyle:

I didn't look at the article, but I bet the emulator core just emulates the CPU and geometry coprocessor, and then the commands sent to the graphics chip are run through an emulation layer that maps Model 2 graphics commands to GS graphics commands.

Even using a wrapper for a lot of the graphics functions, the PS2 would be far too slow at current emulation. Handling the CPU would've required some conversion to native PS2 code.

 

[Argyle]

Argyle:

Even using a wrapper for a lot of the graphics functions, the PS2 would be far too slow at current emulation. Handling the CPU would've required some conversion to native PS2 code.

According to the article, you're right. If they converted a good chunk of the VF2 source to native code, then Sega must have run out of time (or they're lazy) since they would have easy access to program variables so that they could optimize their texture usage.

I was a bit surprised that the Model 2 uses the same z-sorting techniques of the original Playstation (according to that article) due to its lack of a z-buffer, but I guess I've seen the telltale flashing polys on Model 2 games, I just never reallly thought about it...

 

[Azrael]

Great attract mode comparison.

Disgraceful conversation from a machine that was hyped beyond belief to be the best of the best back in the days... 80 million pps! Can see Lau's stage so I can see the mis-aligned background if possible?

Funny, but I bet you any money this would have appeared more perfect on the Dreamcast.

Azrael's First Law of Fanboyism:

If a PS2 game is flawed, it must be the hardware's fault.
If a GC/X-Box/DC game is flawed, it must be the developer's fault.

 

[DCharlie]

"Azrael's First Law of Fanboyism:
If a PS2 game is flawed, it must be the hardware's fault.
If a GC/X-Box/DC game is flawed, it must be the developer's fault."

that's not strictly true :

fanboyism :

PS2 : if it can be done on the Xbox/GC, it can be done twice as good on the PS2.

Xbox : but we have lots of big impressive numbers!!! have we become sony yet? no? what if we throw lots of money down the tube???

GC : we don't like online because we have no friends, and it's okay to ignore shrinking 3rd party support because nintendo are apparently releasing a new game in 4 months time....

 

[Lazy8s]

Argyle:

I was a bit surprised that the Model 2 uses the same z-sorting techniques of the original Playstation (according to that article) due to its lack of a z-buffer, but I guess I've seen the telltale flashing polys on Model 2 games, I just never reallly thought about it...

The frame of reference back in that time would've been PlayStation (Saturn was better off in that regard for its perspective-correct VDP2 rings), so the Z-buffering issue might've been deceptive since Model 2 compared so favorably in the IQ of graphics features and by having perspective correction for textures. The expert software design work of SEGA's arcade games probably played a part as well -- look at how little attention they managed to draw to Model 2's monochrome texturing limitation.

 

[Argyle]

Argyle:

The frame of reference back in that time would've been PlayStation (Saturn was better off in that regard for its perspective-correct VDP2 rings), so the Z-buffering issue might've been deceptive since Model 2 compared so favorably in the IQ of graphics features and by having perspective correction for textures. The expert software design work of SEGA's arcade games probably played a part as well -- look at how little attention they managed to draw to Model 2's monochrome texturing limitation.

Although Saturn may have had perspective correction on its VDP2 (did it? maybe I'll dig up some old docs and see), it was far behind the Playstation in terms of drawing speed and, well, to be frank, the VDP1 appears to have been designed by monkeys (quads for primitives? rasterizing *backwards* compared to like, just about all graphics hardware? broken translucency?). That said, I loved the machine (as a gamer), glad I never had to work on the thing

I was talking more about how all you hardcore sega nutjobs say "MODEL 2/3/whatever IS FROM THE FUTURE" so I assumed it had a Z-buffer since it was OH SO AHEAD OF ITS TIME. Last time I make that mistake

Speaking of broken translucency, I had forgotten that Model 2 can't do translucent polys either until I booted up my DOA board

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

They sort of updated it for Shun's VF3 stage - but no bridge. I really loved some of those VF3 stages. Don't know why VF3 gets such a hard time with fans, I really loved it (though I can never go back to playing it since VF4 admittedly, I think I loved the game's art design and music more than anything else, whereas VF4 / Evo / FT is pure gameplay euphoria).

I'm aware of the VF3 version. But I want a godamm next-gen bridge.

I have to say that I was very found of VF3's stages, I thought they exhibited some great designs, with my favourite probably being Pai's rooftop. I felt in comparison VF4/Evo's stages were a bit hit and miss. Stuff like the Aquarium, the Garden and the Great Wall were great but the Dojo, the Cave and the Harbour were a bit on the dull side.

 

[KyotoMecca]

I'm aware of the VF3 version. But I want a godamm next-gen bridge.

I have to say that I was very found of VF3's stages, I thought they exhibited some great designs, with my favourite probably being Pai's rooftop. I felt in comparison VF4/Evo's stages were a bit hit and miss. Stuff like the Aquarium, the Garden and the Great Wall were great but the Dojo, the Cave and the Harbour were a bit on the dull side.

Totally agree about your thoughts on the VF3 stages. I actually really liked Shun's VF3 raft as well as the ones you mention (or is that Harbour, I can't remember the proper name!) VF3's music also kicked total ass.

 

[Sho Nuff]

So it's an emulator... I think that's good news, actually, 'cos they can use it on future projects.

Note that the CD is only like 200mb or so, so that would bid well for an ultimate Model 2 collection on a DVD...even though they'd prolly just keep selling them for 2500 a pop.

Still, I wish there was a way for the artists to touch up the textures for the lower resolution. They've been really badly downsampled. I wish there was a better way to deal with the 57.5fps display conversion too, because the visual frame drops are annoying.

It would be cool if we could get Gunblade and Moto Raid, both those games are really neat. Maybe Rail Chase as well.

 

[hirokazu]

That's kind of what they did. Did you not read the thread?

It's not like you can compare an N64 emulator to a Model 2 emulator, though. I mean, there isn't even one single fully functional, high speed Model 2 emulator available on the PC whereas N64 emulation has been around for years now.

Emulating Model 2 is FARRRR more complex.

oops, i only read the first page, got boring after that

 

[TheDiave]

It's still better than the Saturn version, and nobody complained (much) about that. I fail to see what the big deal is.

 

[Shompola]

the big deal is that the saturn version is 10 years old or so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[XS+]

The big deal is that the Model 2 version was 10 years ago actually.

 

[Shompola]

that too.

 

[hirokazu]

So it's an emulator... I think that's good news, actually, 'cos they can use it on future projects.

Note that the CD is only like 200mb or so, so that would bid well for an ultimate Model 2 collection on a DVD...even though they'd prolly just keep selling them for 2500 a pop.

Still, I wish there was a way for the artists to touch up the textures for the lower resolution. They've been really badly downsampled. I wish there was a better way to deal with the 57.5fps display conversion too, because the visual frame drops are annoying.

It would be cool if we could get Gunblade and Moto Raid, both those games are really neat. Maybe Rail Chase as well.

...though what's the point if its gonna have the same sort of limitations as VF2 has... its playable and all, but it'll get the same sort of reponse, all the bickering and complaining that its not arcade perfect and all. why didn't they just wait for the PS3 and release them on that, for example, i'm sure it'd be able to handle it.

 

[dark10x]

...though what's the point if its gonna have the same sort of limitations as VF2 has... its playable and all, but it'll get the same sort of reponse, all the bickering and complaining that its not arcade perfect and all. why didn't they just wait for the PS3 and release them on that, for example, i'm sure it'd be able to handle it.

The thing is, all of the current consoles (including the Dreamcast) could handle any Model 2 game they want to throw at them. If they were to simply code the game from scratch, they could pull it off.

Same goes for Model 3 games.

 

[Sho Nuff]

We can only hope it can get better. If 2ch is bitching about stuff, then I'm sure the developers are aware of it.

 

[xexex]

thanks for the exellent comparison Sho Nuff, I imagine you put a fair bit of effort into this.


I can't believe that AM2 flubbed this up so badly. still, it's by far the best home version of VF2. I'll pick it up if it comes stateside, but otherwise, I might not import it. well maybe.