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VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed

artist

Banned
If this change of specs gains traction then that Sony rumor of pushing for 8GB GDDR5 makes complete sense as well. Well, if you are arguing that (major) specs can change this late then 8GB GDDR5 why the heck not?

Of course, he can't start talking about stuff that will maybe cost him his job.
Which also means he cant voice his displeasure (or support) for a specific console. (Its a wash!)
 

Reiko

Banned
If this change of specs gains traction then that Sony rumor of pushing for 8GB GDDR5 makes complete sense as well. Well, if you are arguing that (major) specs can change this late then 8GB GDDR5 why the heck not?

It's possible as well.
 
If this change of specs gains traction then that Sony rumor of pushing for 8GB GDDR5 makes complete sense as well. Well, if you are arguing that (major) specs can change this late then 8GB GDDR5 why the heck not?


Which also means he cant voice his displeasure (or support) for a specific console. (Its a wash!)

I'm about 99.9% sure this will not happen.
 

Pistolero

Member
If consoles had had some alterations, it would have been during the first half of 2012. Nothing major would possibly change in the last 12 months leading to launch. Unless one counts a small frequency bump (decrease) as a viable modification...
 

Codeblew

Member
But people actually waited for ps2... (on the promise of power AND games btw:p)
It's shameful that dreamcast bombed though, ffs. For its time and incredible price the dreamcast was a monster btw... First console to ever get arcade perfect ports and Sega rocked the hardware world back then with their arcade cabinets.

Yeah, if DC wouldn't have died, I may have stuck with it. But then I saw GT on PS2 and I couldn't resist.
 
If this change of specs gains traction then that Sony rumor of pushing for 8GB GDDR5 makes complete sense as well. Well, if you are arguing that (major) specs can change this late then 8GB GDDR5 why the heck not?


Which also means he cant voice his displeasure (or support) for a specific console. (Its a wash!)


You are going down a road that ain't healthy. You are now starting to argue from a point of view that doesn't make sense anymore, and is clearly biased.

He could have not said anything. He could've just said that the consoles were different. He specifically pointed to 360-Ps3 situation all over again actually.

And when you start with "Well if MS can change so can Sony, or it's not fair" kind of mindset, you are already threading into territory that is console war material.

Because then you are basically just debating that MS can't and won't match Sony because Sony can and will outmatch MS. And that's just a never ending cycle, because if MS tries to get near then Sony just pulls farther away.

How is that even rational?
 

artist

Banned
You are going down a road that ain't healthy. You are now starting to argue from a point of view that doesn't make sense anymore, and is clearly biased.
Right.

He could have not said anything. He could've just said that the consoles were different. He specifically pointed to 360-Ps3 situation all over again actually.
Which is very politically correct. Why you bet your job and outright say x > y? And I dont dock him points for playing it safe.

And when you start with "Well if MS can change so can Sony, or it's not fair" kind of mindset, you are already threading into territory that is console war material.
Right like this - Microsoft can change specs late but Sony cant. And you play the bias card on me?
Because then you are basically just debating that MS can't and won't match Sony because Sony can and will outmatch MS. And that's just a never ending cycle, because if MS tries to get near then Sony just pulls farther away.

How is that even rational?
Never said Sony were going to match MS. Please stopping putting words in my mouth.

Alright, I got which side you were leaning on. Thats all I wanted.
 
You are going down a road that ain't healthy. You are now starting to argue from a point of view that doesn't make sense anymore, and is clearly biased.

He could have not said anything. He could've just said that the consoles were different. He specifically pointed to 360-Ps3 situation all over again actually.

And when you start with "Well if MS can change so can Sony, or it's not fair" kind of mindset, you are already threading into territory that is console war material.

Because then you are basically just debating that MS can't and won't match Sony because Sony can and will outmatch MS. And that's just a never ending cycle, because if MS tries to get near then Sony just pulls farther away.

How is that even rational?


aren't you doing the exact same thing though, cause that's what it looks like from over here. I mean the fact that SuperDae's info is even being considered at all here is kind of ridiculous.
 
Right.


Which is very politically correct. Why you bet your job and outright say x > y? And I dont dock him points for playing it safe.


Right like this; (Microsoft can change specs late but Sony cant)

Alright, I got which side you were leaning on. Thats all I wanted.


Man not only did I not show any kind of side I was leaning on, I also didn't debate that MS can change specs and Sony can't. That slide comment ends up looking poor on you.

The point is, just like Sony changed their specs mid 2012, MS could've done the same in that time frame considering these specs are from february 2012.

Now, Ilherre who you trust has already said specs haven't changed. So either we are talking about small stuff like clock speed, or SuperDae is wrong.

Superdae can be wrong and Ilherre right. But if we say Ilherre is right, then he is right not just when it's convenient, which is exactly what you are doing. And it's no use really trying to start reading what he didn't write just because it fits better our expectations.

And yes, your logic is pure and simple based on "Sony will always be one step ahead". Sony already upped their specs, this isn't a secret.

aren't you doing the exact same thing though, cause that's what it looks like from over here.

Can you give me an example?

I'm not placing double meanings and hidden truths about what Ilherre said. I'm saying what he said, so how does that mean I'm doing the same thing?
 

artist

Banned
Man not only did I not show any kind of side I was leaning on, I also didn't debate that MS can change specs and Sony can't. That slide comment ends up looking poor on you.

The point is, just like Sony changed their specs mid 2012, MS could've done the same in that time frame considering these specs are from february 2012.

Now, Ilherre who you trust has already said specs haven't changed. So either we are talking about small stuff like clock speed, or SuperDae is wrong.

Superdae can be wrong and Ilherre right. But if we say Ilherre is right, then he is right not just when it's convenient, which is exactly what you are doing.
You are just twisting and bending the argument and taking mental victory laps.

llhere said that specs didnt change, thats what I believe. I said as much and havent deviated from that. (In the other thread, I even said 8GB GDDR5 is probably not happening, multiple times)

Now this new theory of changing specs late into the game which you seem to be pushing but only for one side. I could and did call you out on that by bringing up the 8GB GDDR5 rumor, which is certainly not possible according to you. ;)

aren't you doing the exact same thing though, cause that's what it looks like from over here. I mean the fact that SuperDae's info is even being considered at all here is kind of ridiculous.
What SuperDAE says is more plausible (getting a major overhaul) than bumping up the RAM in Orbis. :D
 

nib95

Banned
Sorry man, that just sounds like grasping at straws.

You really think that devs would only know about 8 GB of system memory + 2 gb of Vram becoming 4 GB of GDDR5 when Sony delivered them those kits?

What about the whole "Sony put in 4 GB of GDDr5 because devs complained about memory amount" from last year?

Let's be coherent here. Drawing the least logical conclusion doesn't seem to make sense. Not to mention those "old" dev kits smoke the "new" durango dev kits. So I don't see how that would make them anymore of a wash.

Not saying it isn't a stretch, but right now every angle we're discussing is.

Here's the facts and timeline.

- Orbis and Durango dev kits in use
- Based on these, specs are close, perhaps even giving Durango a slight edge
- A few insiders and Lherre say that either the difference is a wash, or Durango has the edge
- New Orbis dev kit is released, shows paper specs to be more powerful than Durango
- A few insiders back track, stating their opinions were on previous dev kit comparisons
- Lherre offers no further comment
- People look to find answers that could explain comments prior to Orbis 2013 dev kit upgrade
- Secret sauce, Microsoft last min update etc have all been suggested

Questions....

  • Did Lherre know of Orbis' intended specs when he made the comment he did, or base them off the older dev kit he'd been working on?
  • Does Durango actually have any secret sauce? Paper details basically point to no.
  • Did Microsoft change the specs last minute similar to Orbis, and have these specs not even made it to final dev kits yet, even so late in the game?
  • Or...were all the opinions previously just referring to older Orbis vs older Durango and is the difference now wider than before, in Orbis' favour?

It could be any of the above. No one prediction (aside from secret sauce), is really any more outlandish than the other. They're all within reason.
 
Now this new theory of changing specs late into the game which you seem to be pushing but only for one side. I could and did call you out on that by bringing up the 8GB GDDR5 rumor, which is certainly not possible according to you. ;)

I basically didn't say any of that. This is getting a bit weird, because it just seems like you are putting words in my posts.

nib95 said:
- Orbis and Durango dev kits in use
- Based on these, specs are close, perhaps even giving Durango a slight edge (when did this happen?)
- A few insiders and Lherre say that either the difference is a wash, or Durango has the edge (based on target specs or dev kits?)
- New Orbis dev kit is released, shows paper specs to be more powerful than Durango (So it's target specs now?)
- A few insiders back track, stating their opinions were on previous dev kit comparisons (so devs thought that the Durango target spec was more powerful than previous Orbis devkit that has 8GB of system memory, Bulldozer and 2GB of Vram? Doesn't make sense)
- Lherre offers no further comment (Exactly)
- People look to find answers that could explain comments prior to Orbis 2013 dev kit upgrade
- Secret sauce, Microsoft last min update etc have all been suggested (Ilherre comment came after the whole secret sauce)
 

Saberus

Member
I'm just excited to see anything from ether system, but one question about SuperDAE, now he's the one that sold his Durango dev kit. Now from what I remember, Microsoft still owns that hardware, and will request it back once a new Dev kit comes out. So how can he be allowed to sell it? I truly think that if he has info about both systems, its not the current tech that's available in Durango or Orbis.

So it will be nice to know something come the 20th, and maybe better leaks for Durango.
 

artist

Banned
I basically didn't say any of that. This is getting a bit weird, because it just seems like you are putting words in my posts.
Yes, in a way you did;
And when you start with "Well if MS can change so can Sony, or it's not fair" kind of mindset, you are already threading into territory that is console war material.

Because then you are basically just debating that MS can't and won't match Sony because Sony can and will outmatch MS. And that's just a never ending cycle, because if MS tries to get near then Sony just pulls farther away.
And you accuse me of putting words into your mouth when in fact you did that to me (see above).

I'll just end this farcical argument with you on this note;
Sony already upped their specs, this isn't a secret.
COOL COOL COOL!
 

Ashes

Banned
changes:

On ram: The earliest rumour we had suggested that Sony were always thinking about whether the jump to 4GB was viable. That's now happened. : Step up (after saying that they will try)

CPU is a step back in performance, where rumours of a steamroller quadcore got pushed to 8 core jaguar, which is probably a more performance per watt related improvement than raw brute force. : step down - raw performance wise

GPU - We've heard the liverpool code from way back, back when we heard orbis was the code name.


It is kinda weird that basically going from a 2gb to 4gb has slain the 'beastly' X3. And even that change was projected - Sony said they were thinking of 4gb.


The mid 2012 spec bump seems centered around this. RAM.
 

Jack_AG

Banned
my game can shade 50% more pixels than yours

If more pixels are in the shade - that should mean greater heat dissipation and less power consumption and less electrical power energy amps used, right? That means that the new Orbis will be able to run on less lightning than Durango, which means that flux capacitor can be redirecting energy to a different component like a blast processor which means better graphics with more sprites on screen. Sounds like Orbis has a few legs up (few, as in, because it's Cthulu).
 

nib95

Banned
changes:

On ram: The earliest rumour we had suggested that Sony were always thinking about whether the jump to 4GB was viable. That's now happened. : Step up (after saying that they will try)

CPU is a step back in performance, where rumours of a steamroller quadcore got pushed to 8 core jaguar, which is probably a more performance per watt related improvement than raw brute force. : step down - raw performance wise

GPU - We've heard the liverpool code from way back, back when we heard orbis was the code name.


It is kinda weird that basically going from a 2gb to 4gb has slain the 'beastly' X3. And even that change was projected - Sony said they were thinking of 4gb.


The mid 2012 spec bump seems centered around this. RAM.

It's not just the ram though. Double the ROPs and 4 additional CUs, as well as the much higher bandwidth 4gb ram.
 

spwolf

Member
its hard to understand whats going on in this thread, but let me assume this:

1. Both Sony and MS have to tell Devs their target specs, otherwise how can devs create anything for the console? Main point of these first kits was so devs can start developing games early for them and have them ready for launch.


2. There are always several options on the table. I doubt anything is every set in stone until manufacturing starts, everyone likes having options. They research several things and then decide on final spec.
 
Yes, in a way you did;

Uh, no I didn't. I was just telling you that you are already starting from a point that isn't conductive to constructive speculation. You are basically saying "Well if MS upped their game, then Sony also put in 8gb of GDDr5".

Which you know, doesn't make sense. Because MS didn't put in 8 GB of Gddr5 in Durango just because Sony put 4 GB of GDDr5.

What I mean with that, and I'll explain it to you, is that it isn't a rule that if one company tries to do something with its hardware that then the other company is simply gonna react and offer something that is doubly better.

It's not realistic.

And you accuse me of putting words into your mouth when in fact you did that to me (see above).

No I didn't, I actually critiqued exactly what you said. You are criticizing me for something I didn't say.

I'll just end this farcical argument with you on this note;

COOL COOL COOL!

I don't see how making the last sentence seem as it was written by a 12 year old helps your argument at all.

Fact is, Sony upped their specs mid 2012. No such information regarding Durango, and the target specs are from february 2012.

But since Ilherre said the target specs haven't changed, I too believe that they didn't change. At least anything major.

I do agree though, let's end this argument because it's clear that your intentions are just to basically throw tomatoes at me trying to make something stick.

I've no desire of pursuing this conversation with you.

It's not just the ram though. Double the ROPs and 4 additional CUs, as well as the much higher bandwidth 4gb ram.

Yeah between the memory design and the CUs and the ROPs, the difference is at least apparently much larger than what some comments would've suggested.

It's hard to see a "wash" right now between these two systems. Specially because at face value they seem to share very similar gpus at least, in terms of architecture.
 
I find it funny that developers and people with a look at the hardware are saying consoles are more or less a wash and yet we ignore them, making up our own ideas based on rumored, incomplete, unverified, and personal interpretations of "leaks".

People will continue going on believing what they want to, but untill the finalized hardware is officially announced, and we get a glimpse at the tools, this is all just conjecture.

Until then, I see no proof that either console is stronger.
 
So either we are talking about small stuff like clock speed, or SuperDae is wrong.
I already posted about this on the last page, but how can SuperDAE be wrong when he didn't say anything about Durango changing specs, only that the leaked information is old? For all we know, it could be a carefully worded troll. A lot of people are automatically assuming he's saying that Durango specs changed, but he didn't say that at all. People are just making the logical leap to fill in the blanks.

His tweet:
Durango info released in past is old, which, when Orbis info came out, made Orbis look a whole lot better. Derp.
Where in this quote does he definitively say anything changed from what was leaked about Durango? Mind you, he was responding to an obviously upset fanboy, so he could have just been fucking with him. But his particular choice of words give him an out if people call him out later. People are taking purposely ambiguous comments way too seriously.
 

nasos_333

Member
I already posted about this on the last page, but how can SuperDAE be wrong when he didn't say anything about Durango changing specs, only that the leaked information is old? For all we know, it could be a carefully worded troll. A lot of people are automatically assuming he's saying that Durango specs changed, but he didn't say that at all. People are just making the logical leap to fill in the blanks.

His tweet:

Where in this quote does he definitively say anything changed from what was leaked about Durango? Mind you, he was responding to an obviously upset fanboy, so he could have just been fucking with him. But his particular choice of words give him an out if people call him out later. People are taking purposely ambiguous comments way too seriously.

Why try to rationalize based on the specs we have, when all these supposdly leaked specs could be 100% fake
 
Where in this quote does he definitively say anything changed from what was leaked about Durango? Mind you, he was responding to an obviously upset fanboy, so he could have just been fucking with him. But his particular choice of words give him an out if people call him out later. People are taking purposely ambiguous comments way too seriously.

"which(...) made orbis look"


I don't see what's so hard. The whole "made it look" is pretty clear cut.
 
So, you're saying that means he's explicitly saying Durango specs changed from the leaks? Any further arguments from me is useless, if that's the extent of your reading comprehension.

It means he's saying the reason why Orbis specs look much better is because they're being compared to old Durango info.

That implies that something is either missing or altered from the february 2012 target specs leak.

I don't think you have any grounds to judge other's reading comprehension when you are basically saying he wrote something but didn't mean anything. Which is incredible.

I'm guessing you also think that "if only you knew" isn't implying that he knows something the other guy on twitter doesn't know, after all he's only saying if only he knew. Which by itself means 0. And when he says "wait for kotaku news", he's also not telling you to wait for Kotaku news because it will be related. Nah, he's just telling the other guy to wait for Kotaku news, any kind of news I'm sure.

Yeah my reading comprehension.
 
Yeah between the memory design and the CUs and the ROPs, the difference is at least apparently much larger than what some comments would've suggested.

It's hard to see a "wash" right now between these two systems. Specially because at face value they seem to share very similar gpus at least, in terms of architecture.


Yes this has been a confusing me for a while now. We've been hearing from "insiders" and developers that performance wise, that these two machines are basically even. But no matter how we look at the numbers I just don't see how it can be a "wash".

Now, ether Microsoft is holding back a major piece of information that will bring the Nextbox on par with Orbis. Or all of those insiders were just being Diplomatic and didn't was to piss in Microsoft's cornflakes.
 
Depending on the rumor, 4GBs of GDDR5 is already twice as expensive as 8GBs of DDR3, if that is true, does another 4GBs of GDDR5 make sense in view of the smarter, more cost effective decisions Sony has been making lately?

Also, unless the specs changed a while back, both consoles are locked, past the clock-speeds, which tend to get lowered, not raised.
 
It means he's saying the reason why Orbis specs look much better is because they're being compared to old Durango info.

That implies that something is either missing or altered from the february 2012 target specs leak.

I don't think you have any grounds to judge other's reading comprehension when you are basically saying he wrote something but didn't mean anything. Which is incredible.
Bingo! Keyword right there. "Implied" is not "explicit." And I made no claims about what he did or didn't mean. Just stating that with so much attention being paid to all these rumors, many people are choosing their words carefully. When the truth is finally revealed, and if the leaked Durango specs are indeed correct, you can't say that SuperDAE was wrong, because he never EXPLICITLY claimed that anything changed. Sure, it may be implied and logically followed from his constructed sentence, but that is very different from outright making that claim.

BTW, I apologize for pulling your reading comprehension into doubt. There was no need for that.
 
Yes this has been a confusing me for a while now. We've been hearing from "insiders" and developers that performance wise, that these two machines are basically even. But no matter how we look at the numbers I just don't see how it can be a "wash".

Now, ether Microsoft is holding back a major piece of information that will bring the Nextbox on par with Orbis. Or all of those insiders were just being Diplomatic and didn't was to piss in Microsoft's cornflakes.

its a wash because we dont have all the information. We dont know the pipelines and toolsets, we dont have clear information on the cpu, and we dont know if theres specialized hardware. For all we know the orbis is bottlenecked by latency and the durango isn't.
 
Here's my take on things:

The specs of both consoles have to be near final irregardless of what anyone wants to believe.

Why? Simple fact is that if they are to go into mass production and launch in worldwide territories this year it is too late to make significant changes. That's just common sense.

Also I don't believe for a second that there is any chance in hell that either console is going to receive either a last minute upgrade to its GPU or sudden increase in RAM.

Why? COMMON SENSE. It would cost either of them millions of dollars to enact last minute changes on near final designs and set their timelines back.

Do we have the right, final specs? I think they are close. Maybe not completely 100% final but I have to think they are in the 80% realm since they are based off developer kits.

The reality is that there is a ridiculous amount of damage control happening coupled with a lack of concrete evidence.

Somewhere in that wreck - common sense should prevail but it sadly isn't.
 

nasos_333

Member
Here's my take on things:

The specs of both consoles have to be near final irregardless of what anyone wants to believe.

Why? Simple fact is that if they are to go into mass production and launch in worldwide territories this year it is too late to make significant changes. That's just common sense.

Also I don't believe for a second that there is any chance in hell that either console is going to receive either a last minute upgrade to its GPU or sudden increase in RAM.

Why? COMMON SENSE. It would cost either of them millions of dollars to enact last minute changes on near final designs and set their timelines back.

Do we have the right, final specs? I think they are close. Maybe not completely 100% final but I have to think they are in the 80% realm since they are based off developer kits.

The reality is that there is a ridiculous amount of damage control happening coupled with a lack of concrete evidence.

Somewhere in that wreck - common sense should prevail but it sadly isn't.

Didnt xbox 360 change until the last few months before release ?

So, common sense or not, anything can happen

And then there is the problem that these leaked specs can be from anything, old kits even or 100% fake

Developer kits can have up to 2 years older tech than the one in the final harwdare

If we do apply common sense, then we should only laugh at the leaked stuff as fake rumors, until they are (maybe) proven true
 
its a wash because we dont have all the information. We dont know the pipelines and toolsets, we dont have clear information on the cpu, and we dont know if theres specialized hardware. For all we know the orbis is bottlenecked by latency and the durango isn't.

And I would totally satisfied with that logic, but TRUSTED gaf insiders have said that Durango specs have not changed
 
I'm overly frustrated with the number of so-called "insiders" that are popping up all over the place as of late.

Not to mention the ones who pop up, say something and then the next minute they retract their statement or say they had "old information" or some other excuse.

Whatever.
 

Jack_AG

Banned
I'm overly frustrated with the number of so-called "insiders" that are popping up all over the place as of late.

Not to mention the ones who pop up, say something and then the next minute they retract their statement or say they had "old information" or some other excuse.

Whatever.

It's all a ruse. The battle for mind share comes before the battle for market share. A lot of the flip-flopping is deliberate ;)
 
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