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[SneakyStephan]

The 7850 (1.8tf) and 7770 (1.2tf) are still quite capable components. They both make a strong gaming PC, though not the highest end.

7970m is also way better than any AMD 2011 laptop component.

I own a 6870 (which is > 7770) and let me tell you it aint much.
It was the budget range GAMER GRADE card (76xx and below are for the sims and not much else) 2 years ago.
I paid 160 euros for mine a year and a half ago...

I bought it because I was skint, it does okay I guess, 35-70 fps depending on the area in bf3 sp campaign at 1080p with no AA, about 30-50 fps in multiplayer. 40-50 fps in witcher 2 with no AA. It gets 60-70 fps in console ports mostly without AA. In planetside 2 (with no other players around so I'm not cpu limited) I get about 35-50 fps on the highest settings (highest in the menu, people with good gpus can go WAY higher with the renderquality and LOD settings by editing the ini )without AA.
It was good enough by 2011 standards but wasn't anything to get excited for back then ,and certainly isn't anything to get excited for by the end of 2013.
It's definitely starting to show it's age now in the graphically more ambitious new pc games (like hawken and planetside2)

7850 (rumored to be in orbis) is about 50 percent faster than my 6870 and is about the minimum you'd expect to run games like bf3 at 60 fps with no AA.

I still can't say I'm excited for orbis either, it seems about the minimum you'd expect to get consoles out of the res/framerate/LOD ghetto and still get a reasonable jump in graphics, but to me 'minimum of expectations met' does not equal excitement or hype.
It equals relief that is for sure, and I'm also very relieved they went with 4GB and not less, but again relief that it didn't match a worst case scenario =/= excitement.

The durango gpu on paper is definitely in the realm of hugely dissapointing to me.

edit: smh at all the console warrior 'who will win the gen' and marketing crap: are you all gamers or football supporters?
I get excited when there is something to be excited about be it hardware potential or the games.
All I hope for now is that MS and sony show some interesting games so we won't need that 'everything was uncharted' Dolan picture anymore.
If they want hype they'll have to show some games because the hardware sure isn't doing it for me.

 

[Busty]

What the hell is the data move engine?

Loooooooooooooooooove. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[shinra-bansho]

This is a copy+paste out of documentation folks.

May not be the newest documentation, but much as with their Wii U copy+paste job, it isn't made up.

But where's the special sauce/fourth block/wizard jizz to Durante then...?

 

[Feindflug]

feelings are no arguments, though.

There is no way to think that Microsoft could produce a better exclusive lineup for the next-gen than Sony.

How can you be sure about anything else other than that Sony will probably have more 1st party exclusives? as far as quality goes how do you know or predict anything about this? it's a new system so 3rd party exclusives are a possibility, there are a lot of hints that MS is interested in creating new IP's and finally MS has a lot more 1st party studios this time around.

So how exactly there's NO WAY MS will have a better or equally good exclusive line-up? do you know something or is this just wishful thinking?

 

[ThisWreckage]

How can you be sure about anything else other than that Sony will probably have more 1st party exclusives? as far as quality goes how do you know or predict anything about this? it's a new system so 3rd party exclusives are a possibility, there are a lot of hints that MS is interested in creating new IP's and finally MS has a lot more 1st party studios this time around.

So how exactly there's NO WAY MS will have a better or equally good exclusive line-up? do you know something or is this just wishful thinking?

Sony has repeatedly shown that their first party devs can push hardware. Those games also have the sales and critical acclaim to back it up. The myth that Sony games do not sale is rubbish. Even some of their least successful games have pushed over 2 million copies. Heavy Rain did that much. God of War, Gran Turismo, and Uncharted are monster franchises.

 

[Karma]

How can you be sure about anything else other than that Sony will probably have more 1st party exclusives? as far as quality goes how do you know or predict anything about this? it's a new system so 3rd party exclusives are a possibility, there are a lot of hints that MS is interested in creating new IP's and finally MS has a lot more 1st party studios this time around.

So how exactly there's NO WAY MS will have a better or equally good exclusive line-up? do you know something or is this just wishful thinking?

The whole thread is wishful thinking.

 

[Leflus]

What does Zipper have to do with anything we're discussing?

We were discussing MS and Sony's potential first party output next gen. Zipper were used as an example of a Sony dev that didn't succeed this gen.

Just because Sony has a stellar lineup of first party studios right now doesn't automatically mean that they'll create great games for the PS4. There might be a higher probability than with Microsoft's studios, but it's still an assumption.

Besides, there's a lot of interesting things going on with Microsoft Studios right now. I suggest waiting untill the consoles have been revealed before we pass a judgement.

What does Zipper have to do with anything we're discussing?
What happened to Bungie?

They became independent again, and MS built up a new studio to replace them.

 

[Ashes]

Loooooooooooooooooove. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

ha ha.

You crazy fool.

Next gen can't soon enough.

Fix this shit Guerilla G Bungie er Epic? Or Turn 10? 343. Somebody. Anybody.

 

[Busty]

Just so you know.

This...,

Just because Sony has a stellar lineup of first party studios right now doesn't automatically mean that they'll create great games for the PS4....

..., is just baffling. How can you argue with something like that.

Its' like saying "Just because your Porsche is faster than my Nissan Cherry it doesn't automatically mean you'd beat me in a drag race. Your car might explode or you might have a heart attack mid race."

 

[Mandoric]

I think Europe will be MS goal next gen. Phil Harrison is probably going to play a pivotal role as to how Microsoft can push their philosophy in Europe. I still believe MS has to drop their paywall in order to see greater profits for their ecosystem in the US and Europe.

Europe should be everyone's goal. It's as much bigger than the US as the US is compared to Japan, and full of people who like the US mass market before this gen subsist on an odd mix of modern consoles, extremely long lifecycles for older consoles, and a significant PC contingent.

Sony probably needs a better message than "we're the only ones paying you any attention" because that kind of failed for them in the US when they were challenged, MS needs to connect with Euro devs but has far fewer natural advantages in that market, and if I knew what Nintendo needed to do I'd be hopping a flight to Kyoto and trying to sell myself as a consultant rather than posting on GAF about it. Whoever pulls this off it probably going to be sitting extremely pretty for the next couple generations.

 

[Ashes]

Just so you know.

This...,



..., is just baffling. How can you argue with something like that.

Its' like saying "Just because your Porsche is faster than my Nissan Cherry it doesn't automatically mean you'd beat me in a drag race. Your car might explode or you might have a heart attack mid race."

ha ha.

 

[Feindflug]

Sony has repeatedly shown that their first party devs can push hardware. Those games also have the sales and critical acclaim to back it up. The myth that Sony games do not sale is rubbish. Even some of their least successful games have pushed over 2 million copies. Heavy Rain did that much. God of War, Gran Turismo, and Uncharted are monster franchises.

You're talking about Sony devs pushing hardware and Heavy Rain selling 2 million copies...AFAIK sales and production values does not equal quality.

The whole thread is wishful thinking.

I guess you're right.

 

[Leflus]

Just so you know.

This...,



..., is just baffling. How can you argue with something like that.

Its' like saying "Just because your Porsche is faster than my Nissan Cherry it doesn't automatically mean you'd beat me in a drag race."

That sentence came out wrong... . It was meant to be written from a PS3 fan's perspective. And way to go for ignoring the rest of my post.

Keep in mind that there's people out there that prefers MS' output. I guess it all comes back to people having different feelings.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Sony has repeatedly shown that their first party devs can push hardware. Those games also have the sales and critical acclaim to back it up. The myth that Sony games do not sale is rubbish. Even some of their least successful games have pushed over 2 million copies. Heavy Rain did that much. God of War, Gran Turismo, and Uncharted are monster franchises.

Like many things in this thread, the sales of every game in Sony's first party lineup aren't quantifiable so they really fall in the realm of speculation. The are people who will try to convince you that Ratchet, Warhawk, Starhawk, Socom, PSABR, LBP 2, LBP Kart, Twisted Metal, Heavenly Sword, Folklore, Killzone 3, Resistance 1-3, Motorstorm 1-3, Wipeout, and everything on Vita were all massively successful with absolutely no data to back it up. All the while thoroughly ignoring/dismissing similarly performing titles from MS.

 

[PdotMichael]

I'm surprised to see some reactions of my statement.

of course I can't look in the future and there is the possibility that...[insertwhateveryouwant]. But if you compare the amount of first party studios and the output of games and qaulity then it's very easy to predict which company will have an adventage in the next generation.

 

[Dabanton]

Damm. This thread has turned into a real mess. Fully expected once certain types dropped in here.

We don't even know what exclusive games either Sony or MS have in store yet, so whats the point of saying that either or will have a better lineup at this point of time?

I've even seen people saying they already 'know' what console their getting because the other system won't have any games.

Whole lot of jr psychics up on Gaf it seems.

 

[stryke]

Sony has repeatedly shown that their first party devs can push hardware. Those games also have the sales and critical acclaim to back it up. The myth that Sony games do not sale is rubbish. Even some of their least successful games have pushed over 2 million copies. Heavy Rain did that much. God of War, Gran Turismo, and Uncharted are monster franchises.

Quick FYI - Quantic Dream is not first party.

 

[Busty]

That sentence came out wrong.....

No it didn't.

Quick FYI - Quantic Dream is not first party.

They aren't owned by Sony but they do have a 'multi game' deal with them.

 

[OrbitingCow]

I think some people are going off a cliff here. When these systems are even semi-comparable in architecture the ports are going to be very much the same. All the major differences will be in first part unless Sony has a massive machine going. Look at what they have done with the incredibly complex coding for PS3 ports at this point. This is not going to be nearly as tough IMO.

 

[Insane Metal]

I want Orbis leaks

 

[JaggedSac]

I want Orbis leaks

I am sure Sony will design the hardware so that there are no leakages.

 

[Globox_82]

Quick FYI - Quantic Dream is not first party.

they will be soon. besides they are second party atm FYI

 

[Busty]

I want Orbis leaks

You do NOT want your Orbis leaking.

Trust me.

 

[mrklaw]

Like many things in this thread, the sales of every game in Sony's first party lineup aren't quantifiable so they really fall in the realm of speculation. The are people who will try to convince you that Ratchet, Warhawk, Starhawk, Socom, PSABR, LBP 2, LBP Kart, Twisted Metal, Heavenly Sword, Folklore, Killzone 3, Resistance 1-3, Motorstorm 1-3, Wipeout, and everything on Vita were all massively successful with absolutely no data to back it up. All the while thoroughly ignoring/dismissing similarly performing titles from MS.

I'm going to go with

'I prefer Sony first party exclusives, they seem to resonate with me more than most of MS' ones. I don't particularly care about sales - as long as Sony continue to provide me with those kinds of titles, I'll continue to want to buy their hardware'

but I'm an easy sell anyway. I'd buy Durango if it had a PGR game at launch. or a Viva Pinata game. Or anything shiny.

 

[Feindflug]

I'm surprised to see some reactions of my statement.

of course I can't look in the future and there is the possibility that...[insertwhateveryouwant]. But if you compare the amount of first party studios and the output of games and qaulity then it's very easy to predict which company will have an adventage in the next generation.

Yeah and guess what quality is subjective...PS3 line-up is highly overrated IMO and has a lot of mediocre games that people treat like they're masterpieces.

Does that justifies my prediction that MS will have the better line-up next gen? of course not because we don't know shit about what exclusives both Sony and MS have in store for the next gen systems.

 

[Insane Metal]

You do NOT want your Orbis leaking.

Trust me.

LOL

 

[Ashes]

You do NOT want your Orbis leaking.

Trust me.

orbis leaks are more likely in the other thread.

 

[DieH@rd]

What if this Data Move Engine is just a fancy name for a video upscaler? All games will be rendered ion 720p30 and then magically upscaled to 1080p60fps [Force Unleashed 2 tech]....

 

[Jadedx]

Wow, the hate is strong on page 65. Some of it sounds like what people want to happen.

This is gaf, everything turns in to a ms hate fest. So I give up. When the full specs come out and the devs say they are about equal gaf will still hate on it.

 

[Busty]

This is gaf, everything turns in to a ms hate fest. So I give up. When the full specs come out and the devs say they are about equal gaf will still hate on it.

Wait. I thought the secret GAF Illuminati had instructed us to secretly hate Nintendo?

Did I miss a meeting?

 

[Reiko]

I'm going to go with

'I prefer Sony first party exclusives, they seem to resonate with me more than most of MS' ones. I don't particularly care about sales - as long as Sony continue to provide me with those kinds of titles, I'll continue to want to buy their hardware'

I think we should care about sales.

Some of the Xbox exclusives from last gen went the way of the dodo due to dwindling sales.

Remember Blinx? Brute force?

 

[LukasTaves]

Possibly, but more than that, I think. I don't totally understand it, so I don't really want to get into it.

Just a wild guess: A hardware for decoupled sampling. (separating the samples you need for shading from the ones you need for visibility, which allows to be used even in the last stage of the pipeline, like post processing, increasing quality and reducing cost of some of the post process techniques or even AA). There were some really neat presentations about that in the last few siggraphs, even though they were all implemented in current gpus, so i don't know if you would actually need a custom hardware for that XD

I think the idea is the equivalent of head-tracking, but for audio. Granted, I don't know if that's what it does, but I've heard crazy things about the audio hardware in Durango (and I don't imagine the capability is much different for Orbis, since apparently I have to say that now).

I would be curious to know from people here what would make them want a new, more powerful kinect. Like, what features would sell you on it.

My list:

- Fish-eye type of lens, with very wide FOVs so the space requirements for kinect are drastically reduced. I guess similar results could be accomplished with 2 kinects, but i imagine that would be harder to set up.
- Less noise from the data, reducing the need to filter/smooth it, thus reducing delay. Competing TOF cameras seems to have a lot less noise.
- 640*480 @ 60fps for depth should be enough to get finer detail even at the maximum distance.
- A HD video camera, because video chatting with that low ass vga camera of kinect sucks.
(The sensors kinect use are actually already HD, so those last two could be doable without changing the hardware)
- Dedicated processor not just to process the data from kinect, but also applying it to games (For example, skinning characters using the skeleton data)
- A specialized controller that would like a nunchuck for each hand, wirelless, completely small, with analog stick and some buttons.
- Automatic controller mode switching: Say i'm playing the newest Elder Scrolls, sit on my couch using the controller... At any time i can put my controller to the side, grab the nunchucks and kinect would understand that now i want to use it, so now the game would listen to the nunchucks and motions... If I ever get tired i can just grab the controller again, at any moment, and go back to traditional control.

You and Microsoft don't see eye-to-eye.

This "secret sauce" stuff drives me nuts. Yes, AMD did have more engineers on the Microsoft project. Yes, the hardware in the Durango is more customized than Sony's. Yes both of their dev kits are more powerful than final hardware will be.

However, consider that even the Wii U had "secret sauce" (ARM core, DSP, etc) to offload certain tasks off the main hardware.

That's true, but Wiiu packs a comparable power to PS360 despite being a lot smaller than both (even when compared to Ps3 super slim). And more importantly with less than half of the power consumption. And i wouldn't rule out that nintendo is having much bigger profits margins on it than both Ms or sony.

 

[TheOddOne]

How can you be sure about anything else other than that Sony will probably have more 1st party exclusives? as far as quality goes how do you know or predict anything about this? it's a new system so 3rd party exclusives are a possibility, there are a lot of hints that MS is interested in creating new IP's and finally MS has a lot more 1st party studios this time around.

So how exactly there's NO WAY MS will have a better or equally good exclusive line-up? do you know something or is this just wishful thinking?

One thing for sure is that Sony will have more titles. People forget that a bulk of their games come from publishing, as in their partnership with outside developers. The quality of those collaborations can sometimes be questioned, but it does show that Sony goes after titles. They will keep doing that and deliver first party content. Microsoft isn’t going to match them output wise, but that does not mean that they won’t bring their A game. We’ve heard reports that they are investing in some new titles, not only report but their job listings and recent opened studios also reflect that.

I never really understood the “x has more studios” argument, because to judge a console by that seems shallow. Eventually it should boil down to games, those are the most important. If Sony and Microsoft both announce 6 new games, and from them all I like 2 Sony games and 3 Microsoft games, does it really matter how many studios the one has over the other? Nope. I’m going to buy all those games, not because of how studios one has over the other, but because those games interest me. It’s foolish to align yourself to one console these days, because all console manufactures will bring new content and they will fight for our attention. You should not miss out if you are gamer.

 

[ii Stryker]

Easy tiger.

Meant to form that as a question. Is that not the case?

 

[Xenon]

Yeah and guess what quality is subjective...PS3 line-up is highly overrated IMO and has a lot of mediocre games that people treat like they're masterpieces.

Does that justifies my prediction that MS will have the better line-up next gen? of course not because we don't know shit about what exclusives both Sony and MS have in store for the next gen systems.

I agree with this and would add that for me the majority of them have a high emphasis on graphics.

 

[NBtoaster]

I own a 6870 (which is > 7770) and let me tell you it aint much.
It was the budget range GAMER GRADE card (76xx and below are for the sims and not much else) 2 years ago.
I paid 160 euros for mine a year and a half ago...

I bought it because I was skint, it does okay I guess, 35-70 fps depending on the area in bf3 sp campaign at 1080p with no AA, about 30-50 fps in multiplayer. 40-50 fps in witcher 2 with no AA. It gets 60-70 fps in console ports mostly without AA. In planetside 2 (with no other players around so I'm not cpu limited) I get about 35-50 fps on the highest settings (highest in the menu, people with good gpus can go WAY higher with the renderquality and LOD settings by editing the ini )without AA.
It was good enough by 2011 standards but wasn't anything to get excited for back then ,and certainly isn't anything to get excited for by the end of 2013.
It's definitely starting to show it's age now in the graphically more ambitious new pc games (like hawken and planetside2)

7770 should be able to get 30fps in BF3, high, with 4xAA.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7770-7750-benchmark,3135-6.html#

Basically a match for the 6850, but in Crysis 2 it has superior DX11 performance. Though I agree it's unspectacular.

 

[Pistolero]

This thread started nice only to transform into a hilariously mean congregation, as if we, sweet gizmos, turned into gremlins once we were fead a bunch of unconfirmed infos.
Even if we were to accept those rumors as true (which I doubt...Durango might very well turn up to be the more powerful of the rival sisters), it would be absurd to declare a...what...20 % advantage -on paper- as the end of it all. This supposed marginal superiority is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Leflus]

No it didn't.

Heh. If you say so.

Even if it didn't, you still didn't read the entire post. My point is that people shouldn't just assume that history will repeat itself. Rare could shit out pure gold, while 343 Industries could make something that makes HaloGAF even more furious.

I think we should care about sales.

Some of the Xbox exclusives from last gen went the way of the dodo due to dwindling sales.

Remember Blinx? Brute force?

This gen too. Kameo. ..and I still believe that Lost Odyssey had franchise potential. It's too bad that MS gave up on Japan.

It's definitely going to happen next gen too. We just don't know about them yet.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Quick FYI - Quantic Dream is not first party.

I stand corrected.

 

[OrbitingCow]

I honestly do not think devs will be aiming for 30FPS next gen. These specs look to me like they can pull of 60. 30FPS fucking blows and everybody knows it including them. Coding to the metal they should be able to do 60 for the vast majority of games. You drop resolution before you go back to the uncomfortable assfuck that is 30FPS, excuse my french.

Just putting in Warhawk again man that fucking game has judder that will cause seizures and tearing that has you in tears at times. Love the game, general and all, but it is hard to go back. I don't think any dev in their right mind would ever target 30FPS again.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

Wow, the hate is strong on page 65. Some of it sounds like what people want to happen.

Yup, so they can have something to complain about on an internet video game message board.

These. Specs. Are. Fine. Especially for a dedicated gaming console.

 

[Shahed]

It get's tiring reading so many posts from people with agenda's (on both sides). Sure I'd want both systems to be as powerful as they can be, but regardless if Durango is equal to or less powerful than Orbis (as per rumours), it will still get all the third party games on top of worthwhile exclusives that make it worthwhile

I'm more interested in the integration of Kinect. Personally since I detest motion control, I hope that it's as optional as possible. I'd hate for me to be required to use it

 

[Pistolero]

30 vs 60 fps is not dictated by hardware per se. It boils down to developers' targets and compromises. You could use the most powerful CG on the market and still make it choke by bombarding the screen with graphical effects.

 

[mrgreen]

Microsoft probably spent a lot of money customizing their chipset. If controlling the living room doesn't pan out for them, and consumers choose the PS4 as their "do it all box" because it puts prettier pictures/better IQ on screen; what does MS do?

I know I'm probably in the minority now, but I don't want a "do it all box." I just want another great Xbox to play standard games, with a controller that's the same or better as now.
I have no interest, personally, in Kinect, I want absolutely nothing to do with mobile-type games that are cheap. I don't want a console that is into fucking Face book and Messenger and YouTube.

I really hope MS release a version of Durango (really shit name btw) that is just for people like me, without Kinect and any other accessory that isn't needed to play games like Halo. If they don't then I simply won't bother buying their next console at all.

That's why I'd be very disappointed if Durango is in the slightest bit underpowered in order to keep costs down. I'd rather pay more any day of the week.

 

[Leflus]

I'm more interested in the integration of Kinect. Personally since I detest motion control, that it's as optional as possible. I'd hate for me to be required to use it

Agreed. They need to do it right this time. The first version was fine for party games and a few gems like Child of Eden and The Gunstringer, but it never lived up to Microsoft's hype.

If they really are going to bundle it with every Durango, they need to be 100% sure that it doesn't turn out the same way as its predecessor.

Edit: Making the controls as optional as possible would be nice too.

 

[OrbitingCow]

30 vs 60 fps is not dictated by hardware per se. It boils down to developers' targets and compromises. You could use the most powerful CG on the market and still make it choke by bombarding the screen with graphical effects.

Oh I agree. But no sane dev will target 30FPS because it's fucking awful. Sure, maybe someone with no gaming knowledge whatsoever up top lets this pass but....

In the end I think both of these systems are going to be more equal than not. Certainly from a coding perspective.

It's pretty obvious that Teen GAF is really concerned about all this though.

 

[Mr.Green]

Stuff

Impostor!

 

[LukasTaves]

I honestly do not think devs will be aiming for 30FPS next gen. These specs look to me like they can pull of 60. 30FPS fucking blows and everybody knows it including them. Coding to the metal they should be able to do 60 for the vast majority of games. You drop resolution before you go back to the uncomfortable assfuck that is 30FPS, excuse my french.

Just putting in Warhawk again man that fucking game has judder that will cause seizures and tearing that has you in tears at times. Love the game, general and all, but it is hard to go back. I don't think any dev in their right mind would ever target 30FPS again.

You could have a billion times more power than PS4 and Durango will have and still target 30 fps. It doesn't matter how much power you have, you can always do better/more with half the framerate. Until a point where you hit diminishing returns, of course, but we are far from there.

High end Pc gaming can achieve high framerate ad resolutions because you are literally throwing a lot more hardware than the software requires.

Edit:

Oh I agree. But no sane dev will target 30FPS because it's fucking awful. Sure, maybe someone with no gaming knowledge whatsoever up top lets this pass but....

In the end I think both of these systems are going to be more equal than not. Certainly from a coding perspective.

It's pretty obvious that Teen GAF is really concerned about all this though.

On the contrary, i think sane devs will target 30fps to provide prettier graphics. The average gamer directly correlates the game graphics to it's quality, just look at this very forum no how much shit a game gets if it's not redeemed good looking enough.

 

[Reiko]

Oh I agree. But no sane dev will target 30FPS because it's fucking awful. Sure, maybe someone with no gaming knowledge whatsoever up top lets this pass but....

In the end I think both of these systems are going to be more equal than not. Certainly from a coding perspective.

It's pretty obvious that Teen GAF is really concerned about all this though.

Prepare for disappointment.

 

[mrgreen]

Impostor!

HAHA I didn't know you had the same (almost) username other wise I wouldn't have chose it. Sorry