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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...
- Thread starter Shikoro
- Start date
Because his info was old?
specialguy
Banned
yup. this is pretty similar to the brutal 360 vs ps3 tech battles of 2005 and 2006.
hell i remember for a time there was this overwhelming feeling like technically ps3 was going to destroy the 360. we just didn't know. every nugget of info was seized on in the runup to ps3 release. it's real capabilities were a mystery. anything from destroying 360, to actually being significantly less powerful seemed possible.
in that end all that fighting and kvetching and they turned out basically the same.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Yeah, it's sad. I've been enjoying this thread up to this point.
I had not clue sweetvar stated AMD thought Durango would be more powerful. That's interesting to say the least, especially after what we've seen so far.
But Proelite, Aegies and karak's info are not.
Everyone wants the one perfect console that will forever satisfy all their gaming desires, and will do anything to convince themselves that they have found it. Threads like this threaten their illusion.
Dreamgazer
Member
The only old info he posted were the ones from the documents that he typed up in one of the old threads ffs. All the other info was up-to-date an directly from the mouth of his source. How many fucking times have I had to type this ffs.
Calm down. You're obviously to emotionally invested in this.
afaik his info on Orbis was old. Sony upped their hardware since.
The thing that was upped was the RAM amount which according to thuway was done very recently. He was the first person to mention that Sony (and MS) had switched to jaguar CPU cores.
Nope, just pissed off about the misinformation regarding the age of Sweetvar26's info.
Proelite
Member
Not really. Both info are about the silicon that was sent to fabs as of mid 2012. Those silicon are likely final unless Sony decided to delay their console by 6 or more months for upgrades.
If Orbis turns out to be more powerful, more likely reason is that Sweetvar26 switched the consoles, or that AMD is counting the various Kinect, Security, and Audio processors into the overall picture.
oversitting
Banned
Theres probably more to the 4 units than just the data caching. This is my speculation from whats been around and what proelite showed me.
phosphor112
Banned
If anything it'll be more like 1.5 to 1.2. The 1.8 is peak theoretical. Those DM Engines probably just help realize that 1.2 TFLOPS better.
Can Crusher
Banned
Exactly.
seattle6418
Member
It's not about being on par with each other, what should worry people is the direction each company is trying to give to their system. General corporate plans don't change over night, and if you look at the leaked PDF Microsoft doc, it's clear they are doing some things that might compromise/sacrifice the hardcore crowd.
There's no need to speculate, just read the official docs and put 2 + 2 together.
There's no need to speculate, just read the official docs and put 2 + 2 together.
Okay? How does that disprove my point? All they've stated is that they're both on par. Spongebob was claiming that Durango would be more powerful because Sweetvar's friend thought it would be.
Whilst somewhat true, only a very small portion of it. For a start, the higher bandwidth Esram is only for 32mb, and 102 GB/s at that. Running parallel to the DDR3 for 170 GB/s is applicable only for a small segment of it, and peak too.
No idea what the deal with these data movers is mind, but if people actually think it will magically turn all 8GB of slow DDR3, super fast, I think they are being very naive.
Still think it could be really powerful tech though, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I think he's just talking about the ones that move data around, and their role coupled with the eSRAM, not necessarily referring to others. Maybe he doesn't even know about those other ones...I'm just saying, for a Sony employee, he explained the potential upside of that setup way better than anyone else I've seen so far
i'm just very suspicious of anyone who despite clearly not being under NDA will aggressively proclaim performance but can offer no insight in to how it's achieved.
infact, it seems the only person who is able to dissect these potential gains in a credible way which satisfies my critical faculties works for sony.
SneakyStephan
Banned
What am I even reading.
So if someone makes a wild claim , being skeptical makes one a fanboy of the 'other team'? (I'm on neither team in this race for mediocrity btw)
I also love how the ERP guy's words are being twisted.
He explains how compute power is only a part of what defines a gpu's overall performance, and people here spin it into it being irrelevant or being able to be compensated for (by a factor of 50 percent even in this case).
He never alluded to such a thing, he was very careful to make that clear too with his closing sentence. He was getting annoyed by people taking a black and white half assed view on performance.
Like a lot of people here still thinking that somehow 12GB of ram would be better than 8 GB regardless of bandwidth or latency because of the memory size bottlenecks of last gen, or the clowns who deduce that ps4 won't get cross game chat again because last time it had less ram accessible for those tasks than xbox360 with its unified ram, hence their logic that having half the ram this time will have the same result.
Or those who think that unified ram = automatically better in every way because they can't process that the problem with ps3's split pool was not that it was split, but that it was not enough ram for that configuration.
(unified = not having to move data as much but it's also not affordable to get enough of it at suffucient bandwidth , hence why on pc you use a large pool of slow DDR as cache and general purpose/cpu ram and a smaller pool of fast vram set aside for the GPU, you know, so you can enjoy the bandwidth, the room to cache to avoid having to page from the HDD AND keep the price low. Win Win Win. Split ram is only a problem if you run out of ram for any part of the chain in the process in the appropriate pool.
At the same time the lack of memory bandwidth gets ignored by the same people who argue the Floating point performance isn't the whole picture. (cherrypicking)
And their argument for them being twins like last gen is that 'cell didn't pan out to make the hoped for difference so they ended up close'.
So how do you get from there to 'but this time the magic sauce and new performance tricks WILL work out , and they will work out so well that they'll close this 50 percent on paper performance gap in compute power and the large bandwidth difference.
Just step back for a second and ponder how much cognitive dissonance is required to conclude that from saying cell was too hard to use and mostly a bunch of hot air being blown.
I don't have to have an opinion on the performance to be annoyed at HOW people come to their conclusions, because the example above sure isn't good science, it's some contradictive mental gymnastics.
Oh and the ridiculousless of trying to pin a bandwidth number or ram number 'on 1080p' (people were playing half life at 'hd resoluushiuns' on 1600x1200 crt monitors 14 years ago with 64MB vram @2.7GB/sec on a geforce 2 mx), it depends on how much you want to do do at that resolution , wether you use deferred rendering etc etc.
So many people drawing parralels from last generation and drawing conclusions or seeing patterns without bothering to understand even the most basic mechanics behind them.
Again, I'm a pc gamer first, psp gamer second, xbox360 and ps3 gamer third, I have no horse in this race, I'm just amazed at the amount of spinning being done here without a single iota of logic to back it up.
Until a developer comes out and can describe how the memory bandwidth and compute power is compensated for (and actually compensated for, not being limited to doing less but doing less faster).
I'm too old and too jaded to fall for blind faith hype and marketing crap from controlled leaks anymore.
Right now my only feelings on the leaks are those of weary pessimism and skepticism, for both consoles.
The thread was entertaining on it's own until today.
This seems about right for this thread.
People spinning and misinterpreting information like crazy, every time anyone provides any objective information or footnote it is immediately spun or misinterpreted, half of the time by the very person posting it and then they jump at eachother's throats over it.
edit: this rant is caused by the turn to an agressive tone and hostility people show to eachother compared to yesterday.
The misinterpeting and shenanigans mentioned above are all good fun until people went hostile towards eachother over their man staring at shadows on his cave wall views.
grimshawish
Banned
Am finding it hard to differentiate what is real and what is not real info from users.
I've decided to ignore all non-'leaked' stuff (e.g. someone felt it was true enough to write an article about and that someone is not Kotaku). Which may or may not be unfair.
Just theres a lot of stuff being bandied about. I have a feeling we won't know even at launch which is stronger. I do feel based on the leaked specs that Orbis should do the best up-front.
People shouldn't act like this isn't a complex situation. It is, and the thread moves quickly.
Aegies admits he doesn't know enough to post on Polygon. He only knows about the dev kits and has been mixing further speculation with fact.
I won't take what he says just as much as I won't take what someone else says. He has been civil in responding to me so I hope he knows am not being bitchy.
Too much 'unclear' info being thrown about. And too many people throwing new info into the ring suddenly when the last thing they said is being discussed.
Yes, calling it with their fanboy tinted goggles.
The reality is that everyone who was leaked information to this board has been saying that the two consoles are close.
It's still quite hilarious that I'm seeing some of the same people who didn't question Thuway and Proelite when they reported that Orbis now has 4GB of GDDR5, but are now so quick to question them about Durango being close to Orbis.
Can Crusher
Banned
Alright Sherlock, we won't speculate anymore.
Sony > MS, Orbis > Durango. We will get Kinect shoved down or throats, and there won't even be a traditional like controller.
Hell they are probably planning for no games post 2014, it's all a smoke screen.
Sooo... like the ps3's 1.8tflops vs the 360's 1tflop...
Actually Proelite said about 3 times that he thinks the durango would be slightly more powerful (once in this thread), and karak said so too.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
What are these grand corporate plans?
What?
Gemüsepizza
Member
As far as I remember he didn't exactly said "more powerful" but "more ambitious" or so.
Karak wouldn't know. Proelite has changed his tune so many times he can't be trusted.
Least we not forget.
oversitting
Banned
I don't think the hard core flops is what microsoft is trying to utilize better. It will help out with memory but there will be more.
Think how tessellation was developed to help with geometry but it didn't work well on the shader engines so AMD and nvidia start putting dedicated tessellation engines into the hardware. I think there could be things like this Microsoft has been trying to push into their console.
I could be completely wrong so don't hold me to it if Im wrong.
Felix Lighter
Member
There is certainly some of that. There's still some interesting discussion mixed in as well. I think this will be a very interesting generation. I really want to see how the OS and online services pan out. A lot has been learned this generation and I want to see how the lessons are applied from the ground up.
Not sure what Karak does or who he is associated with but this really does not sound like an issue based on his earlier comments.
A matter of perspective. By the same token, for the 5 five pages XBox fans have been defending something they possess no concrete information about. It is all based off of rumours on both sides.
Primarily, above everything, people want parity in terms of power. Given a choice between that and being stuck with a less powerful console which translates into receiving poorer ports, all sane individuals will choose parity.
Can Crusher
Banned
You have to be kidding. One guy says the guy is talking about ports, you say whatever you want.
You see how ERP just said that taking into account one thing doesn't paint the whole picture? That other things must be counted, and IF there are differences in other areas it will matter.
So people dismiss bandwidth and that bothers you, but it doesn't bother you that people dismiss amount (something a dev has actually spoken on).
Do I have a horse in this race? Fuck yeah. Orbis is a lock for me. But this is tech speculation, all things must be considered. Our emotionally investment won't mean anything, because it will literally have 0 impact on what Sony and MS put in these consoles.
So out of all the 'insiders' that have given us credible info there are none you trust?
I "know" more than the devkits. I just don't understand what I know.
phosphor112
Banned
It doesn't appear to be connected to the RAM according to the diagram, but it could be wrong.
True, and this is before any leaked screenshots!
And I along with the Master Race will be laughing, drinking wine and enjoying the battlefield from the top of a hill.
Let me get this straight. You can't see how a reasonable person can find it easier to believe company x added more ram rather than company y who claim to have bridged the gap between a 1.2 tf gpu and a 1.8 tf gpu.
Edit: not that tfs are the be all end all.
Can Crusher
Banned
Proelite hasn't "changed" his tune. He clearly messes around from time to time, but he keeps being one of the more informed guys. This is backed up by mods.
There will always be doubters, and haters.
There will always be doubters, and haters.
2005, ps3 was said to have double the flops of 360 but devs and other insiders said it was super efficient, but people on here said it sounded like crap and then started to call it xbox 1.5 after KenK made his comment.
Baconsammy
Banned
I believe I said that as well. As for your last point, I think fanboys don't want that. They want to go "MORE POWER RAWWRRRRR LOL". Devs are much better off with machines that are equal in power and most importantly easy to develop for. Whatever makes their lives easier is what I want.