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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

J

Jack_AG

Banned
CrunchinJelly said:
Well I guess they already copied the Wiimote so it stands to reason that Kinect would be next.
Click to expand...

Kinect wasn't around in the PS2 days like EyeToy was. DOF is just a natural progression which Sony was slow to move on. Didn't "copy" the idea for camera support - but did borrow the idea for tech. But hey - you can pretend the EyeToy never existed to support your argument - there are no rules that say you can't ignore facts - but you will get called on it.

EDIT:
I should make it known I fuggin hate motion gaming. Give me my pad and nothing more. That's just me tho. I didn't buy into Kinect or Move.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
JaggedSac said:
I don't know much about what kind of things stereo cameras can do, but if anyone knows, what kind of depth information does this provide?
Click to expand...

In theory, it provides the same information as a 3D camera : a depth map of everything it can see by both cameras. Only to be able to estimate it, the device has to match pixels in both images that belong to the same object : if that dot in image A is the same object as that other dot in image B, the pixel distance between those positions in both images is proportional to the real depth of the object.
So the problem of traditional stereovision is that its accuracy depends on the object you're watching. If it has many small and recognizable markers, you will have a good depth estimatioin of each one of them. If it is a uniform surface, there's no way to know the depth on all its points.

Kinect in itself is almost stereovision by the way, except that instead of two cameras watching pixels, there is one emitter projecting special dots, and one camera recognizing and localizing them. So the matching of features is easier, with better density and reliability.

Jack_AG said:
Kinect wasn't around in the PS2 days like EyeToy was. DOF is just a natural progression which Sony was slow to move on.
Click to expand...

The progression is not so natural. Depth cameras used to be very, very expensive (something like 5000€ for a 32x32 resolution), and before they became really affordable, other ways of using computer vision were considered. The strategy Sony chose (tracking objects of known size and colour) was probably the most logical and safe one at that time. Announcing a 3D sensor with full body tracking software, and releasing it one year later took everybody by surprise, especially among people active in computer vision.
 
V

Vashetti

Banned
I haven't seen this mentioned, if so I apologise.

But, what do we think the likelihood of PS2 backwards compatibility returning with the PS4 is?

PS2 production was officially ended last year and the necessary parts for PS2 emulation surely must be very cheap by now.

I know there is Gaikai, but ideally I'd like to just put in a PS2 disc and it run, though with better emulation options as the PS4 is naturally more powerful than the PS3.

I expect PS1 compatibility to be a given.

Edit: Shit sorry I got Durango and Orbis mixed up.
 
J

JaggedSac

Member
Alx said:
In theory, it provides the same information as a 3D camera : a depth map of everything it can see by both cameras. Only to be able to estimate it, the device has to match pixels in both images that belong to the same object : if that dot in image A is the same object as that other dot in image B, the pixel distance between those positions in both images is proportional to the real depth of the object.
So the problem of traditional stereovision is that its accuracy depends on the object you're watching. If it has many small and recognizable markers, you will have a good depth estimatioin of each one of them. If it is a uniform surface, there's no way to know the depth on all its points.

Kinect in itself is almost stereovision by the way, except that instead of two cameras watching pixels, there is one emitter projecting special dots, and one camera recognizing and localizing them. So the matching of features is easier, with better density and reliability.
Click to expand...

I see, thanks. So each camera image is segmented into objects via colors, edges, etc and then those objects are compared with each other and depth maps are created for those objects. Definitely seems like it would be somewhat unreliable unless you were quite sure of what you were looking at.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
JaggedSac said:
I see, thanks. So each camera image is segmented into objects via colors, edges, etc and then those objects are compared with each other and depth maps are created for those objects.
Click to expand...

That would be one way of doing it, but like you say it would be unreliable, or too dependent on hypothesis. The most common way to do stereovision is to do the matching at pixel level (or on a small cluster of pixels more precisely) and try to have a depth map as dense as possible, and then try to segment objects from that data. But since that depth map may have big holes of unknown data, you need to add some kind of model or other trick sooner or later.

Anyway like we discussed on the other topic, it may be more realistic to think that stereo wouldn't be used for full 3D modeling of the environment, but for tracking of small known objects, like a led on a controller. That would certainly be as precise and reliable as the current Move.
 
S

Spongebob

Banned
Jtyettis said:
If 720p is the target then we have problems. A box that is 8 years old that does 720p just fine versus tech 8 years newer that is still there would be a very serious issue. Again 1080p at 30 better be the min.
Click to expand...

That will likely be the maximum for any game that's complex.
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
CrunchinJelly said:
He seems to assume it's running a full version of Windows which he doesn't like.

So I'd say he's jumping to a few conclusions.
Click to expand...

Because he's strictly going off of RUMORS only. He's not jumping to conclusions - he's swimming in the rumor pond with the rest of us.

Technically - ANYTHING any of us speculate on it can be called "jumping to conclusions". It's speculation, nothing more and that's all we really have right now.
 
C

Clay Davis

Member
Eideka said:
And yet he knows more about tech than any of you.

I hope he's wrong though.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't read too much into it. he's apparently basing his 'musings' on old specs and assuming a lot.

a word of advice, it helps to read the comments to get some perspective on his comments. he's completely down on durango, calling it a dvr numerous times and claiming microsoft won't be creating a custom os for durango.

of course he might be right on the money, but it's unlikely.
 
H

Hana-Bi

Member
Jtyettis said:
If 720p is the target then we have problems. A box that is 8 years old that does 720p just fine versus tech 8 years newer that is still there would be a very serious issue. Again 1080p at 30 better be the min.
Click to expand...

With just the raw specs and the believe that MS just want a DVR with some gaming apps, then we would certainly get such a low target. But that's just his opinion and we got some infos that MS don't want to step down their game...
 
C

Can Crusher

Banned
Eideka said:
And yet he knows more about tech than any of you.

I hope he's wrong though.
Click to expand...

The guy says Durango is gonna be a cheap PC with off the shelf Windows on it, focused on DVR and delivering games for the casual market. It will also make profit day 1.

He might know about tech, but he doesn't seem to know anything that isn't out there.
 
C

Clay Davis

Member
Jack_AG said:
Because he's strictly going off of RUMORS only. He's not jumping to conclusions - he's swimming in the rumor pond with the rest of us.

Technically - ANYTHING any of us speculate on it can be called "jumping to conclusions". It's speculation, nothing more and that's all we really have right now.
Click to expand...

wouldn't be too sure about that.

As for the big picture, you are talking about making money on the platform and insuring your investors want to pump money into your company. Something tells me that the big picture for Microsoft aligns well with: (a.) not making a custom OS, it is high cost, (b.) cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss, (c.) selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers, (d.) focus on the more casual, larger player base, (e.) refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often, (f.) build a "PC", easier to port games from. Which aligns with my predictions.
Click to expand...

http://timothylottes.blogspot.fr/2013/01/orbis-and-durango.html
 
F

FrankT

Member
Eideka said:
And yet he knows more about tech than any of you.

I hope he's wrong though.
Click to expand...

As do I.

Though I will never buy the years ahead of PC... though you may have to wait a few years out line. Even the best rumors PS4 is offering is bested by my year old rig. Obviously this is a closed environment so the rewards will come, but in a few years the gaming PC HW will run laps around everything. Like it always does.
 
E

Eideka

Banned
Clay Davis said:
I wouldn't read too much into it. he's apparently basing his 'musings' on old specs and assuming a lot.
Click to expand...
Old specs ? Can many things change in the final hardware, like more edram ? I doubt it.

As do I.
Though I will never buy the years ahead of PC... though you may have to wait a few years out line. Even the best rumors PS4 is offering is bested by my year old rig. Obviously this is a closed environment so the rewards will come, but in a few years the gaming PC HW will run laps around everything. Like it always does.
Click to expand...
The point of a home console is not to compete with high-end PC anyway, the software is what matters first and foremost. Even on the hardware side the leaked specs are decent, not wonderful but reasonable.

In my mind consoles are the more mainstream side of gaming while PC is purely for tech enthusiasts and high-end visuals. I'm fine with that.
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
Clay Davis said:
wouldn't be too sure about that.
Click to expand...

Bro, everything we know is a rumor, it's all speculative. I really don't think I (more like I hope I don't) need to explain any further.

I know hardcore Sony fans are rejoicing and XBOX fans are a bit hurt - but I take everything he says about BOTH with a nice helping of salt.

All we can do is speculate which is what he is doing.

By your logic - your statement is jumping to conclusions - so back up a bit and chill back in the "i really don't give a shit because we really don't have anything CONCRETE to go on" zone with the rest of us.

Speculation is fine and if it feels good or stings - then you're doing it wrong.

Let's just be glad this gen is ending since it went on a few years too long.
 
C

Clay Davis

Member
Jack_AG said:
Bro, everything we know is a rumor, it's all speculative. I really don't think I (more like I hope I don't) need to explain any further.

I know hardcore Sony fans are rejoicing and XBOX fans are a bit hurt - but I take everything he says about BOTH with a nice helping of salt.

All we can do is speculate which is what he is doing.

By your logic - your statement is jumping to conclusions - so back up a bit and chill back in the "i really don't give a shit because we really don't have anything CONCRETE to go on" zone with the rest of us.

Speculation is fine and if it feels good or stings - then you're doing it wrong.

Let's just be glad this gen is ending since it went on a few years too long.
Click to expand...

there's speculation and there's what he's doing. the entire blog post is laced with bias and extremely slanted in tone.

I prefer my speculation neutral, not full of negative assumptions based on nothing.
 
V

Violater

Member
Clay Davis said:
there's speculation and there's what he's doing. the entire blog post is laced with bias and extremely slanted in tone.

I prefer my speculation neutral, not full of negative assumptions based on nothing.
Click to expand...

Did you read the whole thing?
I think his being seemingly exited about Orbis is the prospect of the OS implementation vs the idea of Durango being a windows 8 run system.
 
XtremeXpider

XtremeXpider

Member
Violater said:
Did you read the whole thing?
I think his being seemingly exited about Orbis is the prospect of the OS implementation vs the idea of Durango being a windows 8 run system.
Click to expand...

I don't think so:
(b.) cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss,
(c.) selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers,
(d.) focus on the more casual, larger player base,
(e.) refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often, .
Click to expand...

Not related to OS implementation.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
coldfoot said:
USB3 makes firewire pointless.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, the latest versions of USB and firewire still keep the same drawbacks and benefits... there's more to a protocol than max bandwidth, especially when latency is important.
But then I don't pretend that MS should use firewire, just that using USB is not a given to connect a camera, especially if you're considering a proprietary connector. There are other options, and some of them can provide lower latency and not require additional CPU.
 
C

Clay Davis

Member
Violater said:
Did you read the whole thing?
I think his being seemingly exited about Orbis is the prospect of the OS implementation vs the idea of Durango being a windows 8 run system.
Click to expand...

XtremeXpider said:
I don't think so:

(b.) cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss,
(c.) selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers,
(d.) focus on the more casual, larger player base,
(e.) refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often, .
Click to expand...

Not related to OS implementation.
Click to expand...

pretty much this. thanks for going to the effort of pointing out the things I have issue with.

I just came away with an unseemly taste in my mouth after reading the whole thing and the comments.
 
V

Violater

Member
XtremeXpider said:
I don't think so:


Not related to OS implementation.
Click to expand...

How funny you left out
"(a.) not making a custom OS, it is high cost,"
or is it because he said
"If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU."

Or is it because he "seemingly" compared the nextbox to a DVR and did not write as long an analysis on the Durango but linked mostly to the already existent Eurogamer rumors.

Either way his original post did not seem nefarious yet he was called out for being biased and responded in kind.
 
I

-ImaginaryInsider

Member
Clay Davis said:
wouldn't be too sure about that.

As for the big picture, you are talking about making money on the platform and insuring your investors want to pump money into your company. Something tells me that the big picture for Microsoft aligns well with: (a.) not making a custom OS, it is high cost, (b.) cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss, (c.) selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers, (d.) focus on the more casual, larger player base, (e.) refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often, (f.) build a "PC", easier to port games from. Which aligns with my predictions.
Click to expand...

http://timothylottes.blogspot.fr/2013/01/orbis-and-durango.html
Click to expand...

I don't agree with that, more than likely it is still going to be a heavily customized OS based on an existing OS, just like the 360's was. Yes it will play Apps from Windows 8/RT, but them just dragging and dropping a full version of a preexisting OS because it saves a couple of bucks is a bizarre point.

I do agree this should knock consoles back into quicker hardware cycle, I don't think developers want 7-8 year cycles, and no matter what you do, you can't future proof against newer more efficient designs, so you might as well put a new console every five years if you can price it right.
 
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