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[Kazuma Kiryu]

Yeah I'm thinking Durango has seen some significant improvements, I dont see it any other way. It was probably foolish of Sony to show some of their advantages and features this early, giving MS time to respond. Oh well, competition is good.

man, people still believe there will be massive changes to these consoles...you can't just change memory types, or add components just like that. the unveiling of the ps4 only brought an extra 4gb of the same kind of ram they already had. everything else was known way before. you'll probably get a boost of the same memory kind of a clock boost on the gpu or cpu. the overall system design has been set in stone for a while now, for both consoles.

 

[jimbobb]

So if the most recent leak on the Durango we have is a year old, how is it not possible that Microsoft has gone through and updated all the specs. Sure, responding to Sony now would be more of the way they actually structure their reveal, but I firmly believe that the hardware that has been rumored/leaked will be different in some way.

Unless Microsoft decides to release a new system every 4-5 years, if they don't future proof the system 7+ years out, they could be hurting really bad later in the lifecycle. I say really bad lightly though because it will still be able to do some impressive things, just not as impressive as the PS4.

Perhaps Sony made the move to 8gb RRD5 because they somehow heard that Microsoft was doing big things. Who knows? I can't wait to buy both. I fucking love this time of the hardware cycle. E3 can't come soon enough!

 

[Boss Man]

What I find odd is that in this article: http://www.vgleaks.com/ps4-presentation-confirmed-leaks-and-what-can-we-expect-for-e3-2013/

VGleaks states:

"First of all, I would like to dedicate some sentences to the PS4 specifications presented by Sony. In our Orbis leak, we had written: RAM 4GB GDRR5. Sony has updated and improved these numbers. Developers were working with 4GB not 8GB, the devkit had 4GB. You could think that our documents (SDK) were old, but all our info about PS4 had less than one month and half. Speaking about the other specs, we were right (If I not mistake)."



So their info on PS4 was less than "one month and half" (whereas the Durango info is a year old), yet, in that time frame, not only did the PS4 RAM situation change, now the GPU as well? Also in the bolded part, they claim to have been right on all else but RAM, but now this new article is saying they were wrong on the GPU (14+4 compute) as well?

Damn, that was a very big surprise then.

 

[spwolf]

I see...Would it be able to affect benchmark performance? Seems like it would be only something programmers would be able to take advantage of.

but who else would be using PS4 for programming but developers? .

as i said, it leads to better games but it does not increase theoretical maximal performance.

 

[vpance]

man, people still believe there will be massive changes to these consoles...you can't just change memory types, or add components just like that. the unveiling of the ps4 only brought an extra 4gb of the same kind of ram they already had. everything else was known way before. you'll probably get a boost of the same memory kind of a clock boost on the gpu or cpu. the overall system design has been set in stone for a while now, for both consoles.

People forget the amount of testing that goes into these custom chips. We're talking about upwards of a year for that if not more. Meaning basically all of last year was for final testing before final silicon is ready for manufacturing. Any changes means starting the process over again.

And these details popping out now for PS4 aren't likely new things. They're just new to you and I and everyone not involved in making it

 

[i-Lo]

What I find odd is that in this article: http://www.vgleaks.com/ps4-presentation-confirmed-leaks-and-what-can-we-expect-for-e3-2013/

VGleaks states:

"First of all, I would like to dedicate some sentences to the PS4 specifications presented by Sony. In our Orbis leak, we had written: RAM 4GB GDRR5. Sony has updated and improved these numbers. Developers were working with 4GB not 8GB, the devkit had 4GB. You could think that our documents (SDK) were old, but all our info about PS4 had less than one month and half. Speaking about the other specs, we were right (If I not mistake)."



So their info on PS4 was less than "one month and half" (whereas the Durango info is a year old), yet, in that time frame, not only did the PS4 RAM situation change, now the GPU as well? Also in the bolded part, they claim to have been right on all else but RAM, but now this new article is saying they were wrong on the GPU (14+4 compute) as well?

Makes me wonder what Lherre would have to say...

 

[SneakyStephan]

Tech thread unreadable due to bad posts and memes, I gave up on page 3, thanks guys =\

 

[gcubed]

In laymen terms. Can someone please explain why this is good?

it makes it easier to utilize the power provided

 

[spwolf]

if every dev that got access to those devs knew everything that is to know about PS4, everyone would have known about it 2 years ago.

i always found it perplexing why would people think that someone that has an dev kit, and is leaking info to his friends, will know anything about Sony's business plans - for instance the pricing that was rumored as well as other things. If you have a dev kit, you get your own personal Kaz to talk to?

they would know only what Sony tells them and Sony wouldnt tell them everything for this reason exactly... minnows dont know crap. Playstation Eu boss said in an interview that his staff did not know most of the things about PS4, thats how they were able to keep it a secret.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

I think so.

http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1708222&postcount=1082





Gotta run 3dmark on a 7850 and PS4's GPU to see for sure If devs need to spend more effort to squeeze out better flops at least they could do it, rather than not as well with regular GCN. This is nothing like the Cell SPE magic tricks you needed to know to harness the power there.

True. 7870 would be a better example, seeing as it has more CU's then the 7850. The GPU is basically a downclocked 7870 with 2 CU's disabled for yields. Or maybe just seeing how much better it is than a 7850, since flops wise it s much closer.

 

[CLEEK]

they would know only what Sony tells them and Sony wouldnt tell them everything for this reason exactly... minnows dont know crap. Playstation Eu boss said in an interview that his staff did not know most of the things about PS4, thats how they were able to keep it a secret.

I was always entirely sceptical about Sweetvar26's rumour (which is look more false by the day). His buddy who contracted at AMD and had in depth knowledge about both Sony and MS's contracts and engineering designs. Yeah, sure, because that's how it works. Everyone at AMD gets weekly update e-mails telling them what is going on in their secretive R&D divisions. There would have been a handful of individuals at AMD who knew about both designs, and the two teams working on them would be kept entirely segregated.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Perhaps Sony made the move to 8gb RRD5 because they somehow heard that Microsoft was doing big things. Who knows? I can't wait to buy both. I fucking love this time of the hardware cycle. E3 can't come soon enough!

I'd say they were always aiming for 8GB but it required a whole bunch of hurdles before being possible. Even at dev kit level. Remember, Sony said their decision with the RAM was based on developer feedback. And Crytek were publically giving that feedback up to two years ago

 

[TEH-CJ]

it makes it easier to utilize the power provided

Ok cool thanks

ps4 is soundling like a beast.

 

[Lion Heart]

man, people still believe there will be massive changes to these consoles...you can't just change memory types, or add components just like that. the unveiling of the ps4 only brought an extra 4gb of the same kind of ram they already had. everything else was known way before. you'll probably get a boost of the same memory kind of a clock boost on the gpu or cpu. the overall system design has been set in stone for a while now, for both consoles.

I also mentioned features, OS stuff like the media sharing and recording. I don't see why MS can't add everything PS4 has at an OS level, maybe with the exception of Gaikai related stuff.

 

[KidBeta]

So is it safe to assume that the whole "100% efficiency" comment from before applies to both PS4/720 because of the GNC 1.0/2.0 or modified architecture?

The comment was made in regards to 5 lane SIMD to 1 lane SIMD with the change in architecture to GCN, it will apply to the PS4 as well, in fact I am surprised he didn't mention that. Because it leaves ambiguity and really is a bit iffy.

 

[gcubed]

I also mentioned features, OS stuff like the media sharing and recording. I don't see why MS can't add everything PS4 has at an OS level, maybe with the exception of Gaikai related stuff.

isn't a lot of the "cool" stuff gaikai related though?

I mean i would have to think, as a sane company, that MS was already planning on supporting suspend states. Watching other players, jumping in to control, etc... thats all gaikai

I also don't expect the majority of that cool stuff to be there at launch

 

[bobbytkc]

I also mentioned features, OS stuff like the media sharing and recording. I don't see why MS can't add everything PS4 has at an OS level, maybe with the exception of Gaikai related stuff.

Well, one reason I can think of is that the ps4 has dedicated hardware to do those. the ps4 has dedicated chips to do background downloading and video encoding. rIt remains to be seen if Durango will be similar in this respect.

 

[famfrit]

Translation-GAF. What does it mean!?!!?!

It's over 9.000 !!!

 

[CLEEK]

I also mentioned features, OS stuff like the media sharing and recording. I don't see why MS can't add everything PS4 has at an OS level, maybe with the exception of Gaikai related stuff.

MS Exec: 'Hey guys, we want you to build all that fancy sharing stuff from the PS4 into the XBOX GOLD LOOP™.'
OS Team: 'Wha?'
MS Exec: 'And don't let that impact the existing functionality or design'.
OS Team: 'Huh?'
MS Exec: 'You've got 3 months.'
OS Team: 'FFFFFUUUUUUUU'
MS Exec: *Speeds off on jetski while high fiving himself*

 

[Fehyd]

People forget the amount of testing that goes into these custom chips. We're talking about upwards of a year for that if not more. Meaning basically all of last year was for final testing before final silicon is ready for manufacturing. Any changes means starting the process over again.

And these details popping out now for PS4 aren't likely new things. They're just new to you and I and everyone not involved in making it

I actually think that the lesser-specs speak to MS's plan mainly, that they were hoping on launching before PS4 with a less expensive system, and got caught a bit flat-footed when Sony was much further along than they thought (maybe even due to this RAM supplier).

 

[gcubed]

I actually think that the lesser-specs speak to MS's plan mainly, that they were hoping on launching before PS4 with a less expensive system, and got caught a bit flat-footed when Sony was much further along than they thought (maybe even due to this RAM supplier).

i dont think MS cares as much. They seem to be pushing it more towards a PC with an abstraction layer and copious amounts of reserved RAM.

They seem to be giving the entertainment hub aspect much more consideration then Sony is

 

[thuway]

Damn, that was a very big surprise then.

Do you folks now understand why some of us were so adamant we would not see an increase over 4 GB? Egg over our faces.

 

[Hana-Bi]

Do you folks now understand why some of us were so adamant we would not see an increase over 4 GB? Egg over our faces.

The possibility that more eggs are thrown after the release of final Durango specs are still slim?

 

[thuway]

The possibility that more eggs are thrown after the release of final Durango specs are still slim?

Increase in clock rates, or more RAM (of the same type). That's it.

 

[Fehyd]

The possibility that more eggs are thrown after the release of final Durango specs are still slim?

Its a lot less likely, since much of Durango's supposed (eSRAM) design centers around overcoming the RAM bandwidth issue, and making room for Kinect 2.0 to be integrated.

Other things could've happened between the leaked specs (which are admittedly older than the leaked PS4 specs), but I still think a lot of internal design and testing would've been well on its way with those specs as well.

 

[thuway]

Its a lot less likely, since much of Durango's supposed (eSRAM) design centers around overcoming the RAM bandwidth issue, and making room for Kinect 2.0 to be integrated.

Other things could've happened between the leaked specs (which are admittedly older than the leaked PS4 specs), but I still think a lot of internal design and testing would've been well on its way with those specs as well.

ES RAM is taking up a huge amount of transistors (half the size of a GTX 680).

 

[RoboPlato]

ES RAM is taking up a huge amount of transistors (half the size of a GTX 680).

Holy crap that's huge. Is it still 32mb?

 

[thuway]

Holy crap that's huge. Is it still 32mb?

They can increase the amount, but it is expensive, and large. The point is, it won't make that much of a difference. For those of you who want parity, if MS were to change any part, you would have to wait till 2014 and would pay for it indirectly. Both Sony and MS are locked in. Testing is thorough at the moment.

 

[Reiko]

Increase in clock rates, or more RAM (of the same type). That's it.

Whatever changes that is, MS is keeping than one internal.

Adding a bit more DDR3 wouldn't hurt to justify the 3GB dedicated to the OS.

 

[IHaveCandy]

On b3d they were talking about how the low latency on esram provides a huge benefit for compute. I think ddr3 to CPU latency is about 50 ms and gddr5 is about 300 ms. Now if it takes the CPU longer to do its thing then gpu might have to take its place in some cases which sounds like wasted resources to me. I want Sony to make the most out of that crappy tablet CPU so that the gpu can be focused more on rendering rather then doing compute jobs.

Edit: alright thanks pristine. The cache should help to have data available rather then fetch it with delay.

DDR3 latency is measured in ns, not ms, same with GDDR5.

 

[thuway]

Whatever changes that is, MS is keeping than one internal.

Adding a bit more DDR3 wouldn't hurt to justify the 3GB dedicated to the OS.

The point is, MS believes most people will not care or notice the difference. This generation, a majority of gamers, went unaware that the PS3 ports for games are deficient. COD is the top selling game on PS3, and usually performs atleast 20% worse than the 360 counterpart in terms of resolution, textures, and effects scaled back.

I've said this before, PS4 ports will run at a slightly higher resolution with effects maxed out, with Durango ports being slightly lower resolution and effects. Gamecube to Xbox, PS3 to Xbox 360, and perhaps less visually noticable due to diminishing returns of the coming generation.

 

[Fehyd]

I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like on the subject, but what would actually be some of the disadvantages of using eSRAM like we're led to believe on the Durango, as opposed to the PS4's approach?

 

[IHaveCandy]

The point is, MS believes most people will not care or notice the difference. This generation, a majority of gamers, went unaware that the PS3 ports for games are deficient. COD is the top selling game on PS3, and usually performs atleast 20% worse than the 360 counterpart in terms of resolution, textures, and effects scaled back.

I've said this before, PS4 ports will run at a slightly higher resolution with effects maxed out, with Durango ports being slightly lower resolution and effects. Gamecube to Xbox, PS3 to Xbox 360, and perhaps less visually noticable due to diminishing returns of the coming generation.

PS3 exclusives like Uncharted, Killzone, and God of War really showed what the PS3 was capable when focused on. I'd say those games look better than anything we've seen on 360 from a technical standpoint. Are we going to see an even greater gulf of visual quality between Sony first party and MS first party next gen?

 

[Reiko]

The point is, MS believes most people will not care or notice the difference. This generation, a majority of gamers, went unaware that the PS3 ports for games are deficient. COD is the top selling game on PS3, and usually performs atleast 20% worse than the 360 counterpart in terms of resolution, textures, and effects scaled back.

I've said this before, PS4 ports will run at a slightly higher resolution with effects maxed out, with Durango ports being slightly lower resolution and effects. Gamecube to Xbox, PS3 to Xbox 360, and perhaps less visually noticable due to diminishing returns of the coming generation.

thuway, I would like to point out that maxing out effects sees no gain on console. You can make something in lower fidelity that's not noticeable unless viewed extremely close. You can save performance and use resources elsewhere.

I have no doubt in my mind that PS4 can max out effects though.

 

[IHaveCandy]

I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like on the subject, but what would actually be some of the disadvantages of using eSRAM like we're led to believe on the Durango, as opposed to the PS4's approach?

I'll try to make some silly analogy.

Durango has 9 message couriers. 1 of them is pretty fast, and the other 8 are average speed. All 9 couriers send out messages as needed, and the speed of deliveries matters a lot. The most important and immediately needed messages and packages are carried by the 1 fast courier. This allows for vital information to move the fastest.


PS4 has 8 very fast couriers that all are very fast. They don't have to worry about who is handling the delivery because they are all equally fast.

 

[thuway]

thuway, I would like to point out that maxing out effects sees no gain on console. You can make something in lower fidelity that's not noticeable unless viewed extremely close. You can save performance and use resources elsewhere.

I have no doubt in my mind that PS4 can max out effects though.

The power overhead of PS4 will go to waste because no third party developer is going to dive in and bother to exploit PS4 hardware when the game looks and runs as good as its Durango counterpart. The best you can hope for is slight technical advantages in terms of IQ.

 

[CLEEK]

Increase in clock rates, or more RAM (of the same type). That's it.

I'm sure MS would be wary of any late design changes that increases heat. The last thing they would want is the risk of another RRoD, especially if the performance boost is reality minor like a clock rate increase.

The power overhead of PS4 will go to waste because no third party developer is going to dive in and bother to exploit PS4 hardware when the game looks and runs as good as its Durango counterpart. The best you can hope for is slight technical advantages in terms of IQ.

Even if that were true, I think you're making the rather optimistic mistake that next gen games will all run with a rock solid frame rate and not have any common issues. Even if the PS4 doesn't have more effects, it could run the same code with better results. You could have a game made with the Xbox as the lead platform, yet has performance hiccups. The PS4 version could have the same assets, same textures, same effects but runs solidly.

 

[thuway]

I'm sure MS would be wary of any late design changes that increases heat. The last thing they would want is the risk of another RRoD, especially if the performance boost is reality minor like a clock rate increase.

Agreed. Tech GAF can reiterate this point- do not expect massive changes in silicon unless you want to wait till 2014.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Ms is not the same as they used to be. I believe bkillian was in the meeting when someone asked what would happen if Sony had better specs and their reply was how it didn't matter according to charts and bs like that. He compared the thought process to some cell phone company he used to work for that had potential but made stupid mistakes and didn't know their market which in the end cost the company.

Ms does not care how powerful Sony is. They have a different gameplan and if the last few years is an indication, you will not like it. It's funny too cause they have the resources to probably take them out and they were winning the American market too. What a bunch of fools. If they continue this way next gen they deserve to fail.

On the bright side, hopefully psn will remain free

 

[LukasTaves]

ES RAM is taking up a huge amount of transistors (half the size of a GTX 680).

You are saying this as someone that has inside (as in confirmed) info or just following the speculation that depending on the type, esram may take up to that amount?

 

[Fehyd]

I'll try to make some silly analogy.

Durango has 9 message couriers. 1 of them is pretty fast, and the other 8 are average speed. All 9 couriers send out messages as needed, and the speed of deliveries matters a lot. The most important and immediately needed messages and packages are carried by the 1 fast courier. This allows for vital information to move the fastest.


PS4 has 8 very fast couriers that all are very fast. They don't have to worry about who is handling the delivery because they are all equally fast.

Thank you.

So essentially, because the eSRAM is small, it can only fit so much into it at once, and the rest has to be sent slower? ie. the most important stuff is going to make use of the eSRAM.

 

[Reiko]

You are saying this as someone that has inside (as in confirmed) info or just following the speculation that depending on the type, esram may take up to that amount?

His info is real. It's not confirmed until Microsoft announces it publicly. It's semantics really.

 

[CLEEK]

You are saying this as someone that has inside (as in confirmed) info or just following the speculation that depending on the type, esram may take up to that amount?

Embedded RAM always takes up a big chunk of silicon.

 

[thuway]

You are saying this as someone that has inside (as in confirmed) info or just following the speculation that depending on the type, esram may take up to that amount?

I am 100X more cautious about confirming any thing after this 8 GB GDDR5 shit going down. I want to be surprised and I have no interest in one machine dominating the other.

 

[Wishmaster92]

The power overhead of PS4 will go to waste because no third party developer is going to dive in and bother to exploit PS4 hardware when the game looks and runs as good as its Durango counterpart. The best you can hope for is slight technical advantages in terms of IQ.

That's what the first party titles are for, exploiting the systems true potential. And i am 100% ok with this, at least now the ps4 won't have missing effects in games or screen tearing, choppy framerate in comparison to the next xbox version of the game.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Thuway, you have to remember that third party PS4 games are competing with first party PS4 games. If Killzone Shadow Fall looks way better than BF4 on PS4 because EA is fine with just parity plus enhanced IQ, more PS4 owners will flock to Killzone instead.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Whatever changes that is, MS is keeping than one internal.

Adding a bit more DDR3 wouldn't hurt to justify the 3GB dedicated to the OS.

Do they have the bandwidth to support it? There current set up actually works very well 5GB's total.

 

[Chuck Norris]

isn't a lot of the "cool" stuff gaikai related though?

I mean i would have to think, as a sane company, that MS was already planning on supporting suspend states. Watching other players, jumping in to control, etc... thats all gaikai

I also don't expect the majority of that cool stuff to be there at launch

I got the impression that the majority of the Gaikai functionality would be there. They only started talking about future ambitions and the like when they were discussing having all PS1-3 games available for streaming. Which would be a huge undertaking so would of course take time

 

[Reiko]

Do they have the bandwidth to support it? There current set up actually works very well 5GB's total.

I dunno.

If Sony manages to have 6 or 7GB for games, the gap will widen even more.

MS would be feeling Bethseda problems on their console:/

 

[FairXchange]

Thuway, you have to remember that third party PS4 games are competing with first party PS4 games. If Killzone Shadow Fall looks way better than BF4 on PS4 because EA is fine with just parity plus enhanced IQ, more PS4 owners will flock to Killzone instead.

That's a good point.