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Video Games Are Better Without Stories
- Thread starter RedlineRonin
- Start date
petethepanda
Member
I'm on board with some of the ideas - just swapping out "all games" for "some games," as the medium has the space for both traditional narratives and games that entirely eschew them - but he lost me when he started talking down to young adult fiction.
Dude is like to run into something with his nose held so high in the air.
Article said:
Dude is like to run into something with his nose held so high in the air.
But there is tons of games telling stories in different ways, and I'm pretty sure there is way more different kind of games today then before. I guess we just look at games differently, I don't think of games imitating movies just because they have cutscenes, I see it as games telling stories using different ways depending on the situation. A game like Uncherted 4 is using both gameplay, interactive cutscenes and regular cutscenes depending on the moment to tell the story in different ways. I don't see how a game like that is hurting the progress of storytelling in games.
So lets agree to disagree I guess
More_Badass
Member
It would be odd to expect them not to borrow from other mediums. Film borrows from theater, tv from film, and so on, and games contain elements from every other medium - film, music, literature, art, etc.
He is on point.
"Neiled" it.
Exactly. This is why I don't understand gamers' insistence on having the medium just exist in its own little separate microcosm of design, despite the fact that the ship sailed the moment the first video game was even made.
BlastProcessing
Member
You don't need to say they shouldn't exist. Simply making proclamations about what games should and should not try is more than enough to limit the medium.
I just don't get how you can think that taking a prescriptive stance about what games should be is somehow an argument for removing limits.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I didn't say any of what you're saying. I said something shouldn't be the baseline. That's completely different than saying something shouldn't exist or that people shouldnt try to do things in certain ways.
Radical Edward
Member
Don't see a lot of movies?
Or is it due to the interactivity games provide?
Context should certainly be provided to motivate the player but it shouldn't detract from gameplay. I personally dont like The Last of Us because it puts its cutscene and story far ahead of gameplay. Imo it was a incredibly boring game because I really couldnt do much in the game as a player. There was much more watching than playing.
BlastProcessing
Member
You said:
You are saying what games should and shouldn't do. You are saying that if games don't comport themselves in the way that you approve, that they are limiting themselves. You also drop some good stuff about what comic books should and shouldn't be as well, so I guess this is just a natural thing for you?
People enjoy stories in games, they shouldn't go anywhere because of that.
With that said, I actually want to make an argument about why I love stories in games so much.
What I love the most about games stories isn't even interactivity, but the...periphery of it, I suppose. In both movies and books you are only ever allowed to glance at the world through the path presented to you. Either a viewpoint character, or a scene, or through snapshots.
I love Wheel of Time's world, for example. I wish I could just spend hours going to each separate place in it and just seeing the architecture, the story of its people, and many other things of the sort. I find Game of Thrones' world fascinating, but I only really see glimpses of it - I don't know the architecture of the castle, I can't fully imagine the day-to-day lives of people living there.
That isn't to say that I wish the show or book would take the time to show me such things, it would kill the pacing of a linear story.
But games can present a linear story while still allowing you to turn around and just take in the world. This is one of Deadly Premonitions' greatest strengths, in my opinion. You go through the entire story, which is told in a linear fashion, and the "open world" is used as a detailed background to really set the mood for the story and lets you find out as much or as little as you want about it. This...for the lack of a better word, archaeological approach to the environment is just fascinating to me in so many ways.
To me, that is a kind of storytelling you seriously can't find in anything but games by virtue of how they are built.
My ideal game would be open world, but without proper sidequests. I'd just want the world filled with detail and characters that told you interesting things about the world, take part in meaningless daily activities characters in that world would engage in, and a straightforward plot to guide you forward.
Not sure if any of my rambling made any sense, but I hope it did!
With that said, I actually want to make an argument about why I love stories in games so much.
What I love the most about games stories isn't even interactivity, but the...periphery of it, I suppose. In both movies and books you are only ever allowed to glance at the world through the path presented to you. Either a viewpoint character, or a scene, or through snapshots.
I love Wheel of Time's world, for example. I wish I could just spend hours going to each separate place in it and just seeing the architecture, the story of its people, and many other things of the sort. I find Game of Thrones' world fascinating, but I only really see glimpses of it - I don't know the architecture of the castle, I can't fully imagine the day-to-day lives of people living there.
That isn't to say that I wish the show or book would take the time to show me such things, it would kill the pacing of a linear story.
But games can present a linear story while still allowing you to turn around and just take in the world. This is one of Deadly Premonitions' greatest strengths, in my opinion. You go through the entire story, which is told in a linear fashion, and the "open world" is used as a detailed background to really set the mood for the story and lets you find out as much or as little as you want about it. This...for the lack of a better word, archaeological approach to the environment is just fascinating to me in so many ways.
To me, that is a kind of storytelling you seriously can't find in anything but games by virtue of how they are built.
My ideal game would be open world, but without proper sidequests. I'd just want the world filled with detail and characters that told you interesting things about the world, take part in meaningless daily activities characters in that world would engage in, and a straightforward plot to guide you forward.
Not sure if any of my rambling made any sense, but I hope it did!
I would say there is some merit in this article, especially in games where the driving factor is the story and the gameplay elements impede the continuation of the plot. I remember being extremely aggravated during a scene in Spec-Ops where I reached a fail state about 15 times before being able to progress. While some may say the fail state is incorporated into the narrative, it doesn't negate the fact that video games are one of the few mediums where progress is physically haulted. A lot of times this creates a jarring and combative experience between narrative and gameplay.
Definitely can't agree with the article, but rather than cinema envy...I think enough game developers try to mimic movie storytelling, and too few try to push player interaction within a narrative.
"Walking Simulators", or games that just take from Looking Glass environmental storytelling, do involve slightly more of the player in the story. Unfortunately that slightly more is just picking up the pieces of a narrative, and putting them together in your mind like a simple puzzle. I think the medium could do more to involve the player in the tale itself, than leaving a tale for the player to find. Not that these other types of experiences need to be discarded in the process though.
For me, the game stories that have had the most impact in my life, have either been driven around player choice altering the tale (Planescape Torment), or driven by emergent moment generating systems (Civilization series). The latter has been the types of stories games have brought to the table since chess, and are utterly unique to just all types of games. The former though is where I think video games can do them best, because code and AI allow for more organic ways a player can alter the world around them, vs. a book saying turn to page 56 to see an outcome. Dialog trees are fun, but so many other mechanics could branch a story, and too few devs try much beyond that...for now.
"Walking Simulators", or games that just take from Looking Glass environmental storytelling, do involve slightly more of the player in the story. Unfortunately that slightly more is just picking up the pieces of a narrative, and putting them together in your mind like a simple puzzle. I think the medium could do more to involve the player in the tale itself, than leaving a tale for the player to find. Not that these other types of experiences need to be discarded in the process though.
For me, the game stories that have had the most impact in my life, have either been driven around player choice altering the tale (Planescape Torment), or driven by emergent moment generating systems (Civilization series). The latter has been the types of stories games have brought to the table since chess, and are utterly unique to just all types of games. The former though is where I think video games can do them best, because code and AI allow for more organic ways a player can alter the world around them, vs. a book saying turn to page 56 to see an outcome. Dialog trees are fun, but so many other mechanics could branch a story, and too few devs try much beyond that...for now.
PuppetMaster
Member
Now we know why TLoU was so dark and brutal. Damn Druckmann! He took the authors soul.
MegaSackman
Member
I'm thinking about movies released last year, think about the animated genre.
Oscar nominated movies:
Zootopia, Moana, Kubo, Life as a Zucchini, Red Turtle. Now, I haven't seen the last two but give me The Last Guardian over the other three any day of my life and I'm convinced my 10 years old self would think the same.
And I'm being fair with the animated genre with just counting 2016 movies.
Oscar nominated movies:
Zootopia, Moana, Kubo, Life as a Zucchini, Red Turtle. Now, I haven't seen the last two but give me The Last Guardian over the other three any day of my life and I'm convinced my 10 years old self would think the same.
And I'm being fair with the animated genre with just counting 2016 movies.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Without direction and story, games start to feel like a total waste of time, unless they're online multiplayer with people you know because that's kind of a social thing. Almost gave up on BOTW even though id been waiting for that game for so long, since so much of the game felt inconsequential and menial.
oneils
Member
Bogost is a co-founder of game studio that's made quite a few mobile games. Can't speak for their quality, but he is a game developer.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Yup, that section is especially pretentious and, frankly, snobby. Young adult fiction isn't some lower form of literature than adult fiction, the distinction is based on audience, not on quality. Doubt he knows much about YA fiction anyway since he's making statements like that, but maybe don't generalize if you don't know what you are talking about.
Later on he goes on to say poetry isn't really a storytelling medium either...ignoring thousands of years of poetic story telling. Ever heard of Gilgamesh, Beowulf, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Paradise Lost?
levyjl1988
Banned
I'd like to have a reason why I'm doing something.
So a story is completely necessary, a story is also crafted by the characters action. Shooting at something can only get so far.
So a story is completely necessary, a story is also crafted by the characters action. Shooting at something can only get so far.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Think More_Badass is suggesting he is inexperienced when it comes to writing/storytelling/narrative, which, based on some of the comments he makes in the article, is likely true.
oneils
Member
I feel like I read a different article than you. He says stories come later, after the foundations of the medium. According to you, then, he also thinks that film, painting and tv don't tell stories either?
Lord of Ostia
Member
Poetry has been used to tell stories for as long as we've recorded the spoken word in writing. It shows an ignorance of poetry and its history to suggest that storytelling is secondary to poetry. His comments about YA fiction are just plain insulting.
timetokill
Banned
So a guy who has authored or co-authored ten books and has a Ph.D. in comparative literature is "inexperienced when it comes to writing/storytelling/narrative"?
Wow.
More_Badass
Member
Even further back. Humans were telling stories before writing
Professor Renegade
Banned
Video games can be with or without story, they can work both ways. Pac-Man and Tetris sure as hell don't need stories, but games that are RPGs or Adventures need some semblance of story telling, even if it's subtle ala Dark Souls.
Speaking as a guy with an English Lit degree, literature is not something that's confined to a single medium, it's something that is constantly evolving as we develop new ways of telling stories. Video games are a realtively new medium of literature that has to rely on a catalyst (gameplay) in order to properly convey an interesting story to the player. Though this doen't necessarily apply to games like visual novels, where the only goal is to see all endings/routes/images.
Speaking as a guy with an English Lit degree, literature is not something that's confined to a single medium, it's something that is constantly evolving as we develop new ways of telling stories. Video games are a realtively new medium of literature that has to rely on a catalyst (gameplay) in order to properly convey an interesting story to the player. Though this doen't necessarily apply to games like visual novels, where the only goal is to see all endings/routes/images.
oneils
Member
I feel like he isn't contradicting you. He isn't refuting that at all.
More_Badass
Member
I was mistaken in not researching the guy before making such a claim
But the claim isn't inaccurate even in light of that info.
Just like I wouldn't go to a biologist for evidence and discussion about climate science, him being well-studied in literature doesn't give him the knowledge or experience to present such a broad thesis on the storytelling and narrative of games, and thus game design (because aesthetic, level design, gameplay, controls, etc. are as much avenues of storytelling as the actual words and characters)
I mean, he does mention how the visual aspect of games is not really a means of storytelling (it's nothing more than a technical feat of the 3D engine and so on)
Video games are a relatively new form of media when compared to movies and books. Have you ever watched and old movie or old TV series and thought it had terrible direction, or poor pacing - like a lengthy scene where the character was just silently driving down a road? Plus, under the logic that there is one ultimate form of media, why would any other exist? Why would you adapt a movie from a book when the book is superior? Why would you create a serial TV show based upon a movie?
Video games are evolving. Decades ago the story was, "There's a princess in a castle." Now they are far more complex. There are going to be some growing pains just as happened with the other mediums.
Games present a unique benefit in that they let the player directly interact with the experience. That isn't something that is as easy to do with a book or movie. So they do need to use that line of delineation to their benefit.
The first person exploration game, or walking sim, is in it's infancy. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed every one of them I've played. My main complaint is that they don't have enough interaction, or gameplay elements. But you can easily cherry pick examples in any form of media that are poor examples of their craft.
I got bored and didn't make it through Dear Esther or Everybody's Gone to the Rapture. I wasn't a fan of Gone Home. I thought Firewatch was a step in the right direction, but still far from amazing. Earlier this year, despite some rough edges, Blackwood Crossing moved in a more positive direction once more, with a heartfelt tale. And now What Remains of Edith Finch came along and iterated on the formula once more, creating something that I still had minor grips about, but thoroughly enjoyed. I'd say it's probably the first walking sim that left me satisfied.
Sure any of those could have been a book, or a movie, but they would have lost some of the details that make them unique as a game. There are plenty of benefits that games can utilize, whether it's building worlds that step away from realism, using bold art styles, or offering different perspectives, like using only a first person perspective, which you don't often see in other mediums. All of that enhances the fantasy and immersion, often better than other methods. Thankfully, due to those unique traits, I'm really starting to enjoy the direction story-based games are heading.
In a parallel artistic industry, I've always enjoyed rock music. Years ago I'd heard of the instrumental post-rock genre, but immediately wrote it off because the songs didn't have a singer or words. Now, with some years in me and a better understanding of rock as a whole, it's my favorite genre. Sometimes, the industry doesn't have to change, just the consumer's perspective.
As you age and gather extra intelligence through your experiences. Your tastes and thought processes shift. You sometimes realize the old you was just naive and stupid. I was with post-rock, and this guy is with walking sims.
Video games are evolving. Decades ago the story was, "There's a princess in a castle." Now they are far more complex. There are going to be some growing pains just as happened with the other mediums.
Games present a unique benefit in that they let the player directly interact with the experience. That isn't something that is as easy to do with a book or movie. So they do need to use that line of delineation to their benefit.
The first person exploration game, or walking sim, is in it's infancy. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed every one of them I've played. My main complaint is that they don't have enough interaction, or gameplay elements. But you can easily cherry pick examples in any form of media that are poor examples of their craft.
I got bored and didn't make it through Dear Esther or Everybody's Gone to the Rapture. I wasn't a fan of Gone Home. I thought Firewatch was a step in the right direction, but still far from amazing. Earlier this year, despite some rough edges, Blackwood Crossing moved in a more positive direction once more, with a heartfelt tale. And now What Remains of Edith Finch came along and iterated on the formula once more, creating something that I still had minor grips about, but thoroughly enjoyed. I'd say it's probably the first walking sim that left me satisfied.
Sure any of those could have been a book, or a movie, but they would have lost some of the details that make them unique as a game. There are plenty of benefits that games can utilize, whether it's building worlds that step away from realism, using bold art styles, or offering different perspectives, like using only a first person perspective, which you don't often see in other mediums. All of that enhances the fantasy and immersion, often better than other methods. Thankfully, due to those unique traits, I'm really starting to enjoy the direction story-based games are heading.
In a parallel artistic industry, I've always enjoyed rock music. Years ago I'd heard of the instrumental post-rock genre, but immediately wrote it off because the songs didn't have a singer or words. Now, with some years in me and a better understanding of rock as a whole, it's my favorite genre. Sometimes, the industry doesn't have to change, just the consumer's perspective.
As you age and gather extra intelligence through your experiences. Your tastes and thought processes shift. You sometimes realize the old you was just naive and stupid. I was with post-rock, and this guy is with walking sims.
No I see a lot of movies.
I just like videogame stories because more imagination and craziness goes into them.
It might have to do with the interactivity aspect, having all these cool world's and creatures etc...
I dunno.
Modern real life stories in movies are just a bore.
But to be fair I don't really watch movies or play games for the story anyway, only the entertainment / fun value I get out of them
oneils
Member
He is also a game developer.
Anyway, it shouldn't really matter. If games are art that tell stories, they should be subjected to actual criticism by critics. We can't have it both ways. I feel like the typical reaction to this type of criticism actually sets back the argument that games are art (not pointed at you). If games are art, then we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss genuine criticism.
One of my favorite video game stories was Thomas Was Alone. A puzzle game that didn't need a story but ended up been a very sweet experience because of it.
The problem with so many story driven games is that the plot goes off the rails 3/4 of the way through as the developers rush to finish the game. But I certain appreciate stories that are done well.
The problem with so many story driven games is that the plot goes off the rails 3/4 of the way through as the developers rush to finish the game. But I certain appreciate stories that are done well.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
You can't read.
More_Badass
Member
Considering he doesn't even accept that the visuals and level design of a game is a means of storytelling (which is ridiculous because set design, lighting, and so on are absolutely means of storytelling in other visual mediums), and prefaces his argument by essentially saying everything else is better so why do games even try....what makes his argument genuine criticism?
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Some of us enjoy both, and don't want either to just disappear in favor of the other
ND are very good at what they do
oneils
Member
Other mediums are more effective at story telling than video games. That video games are better off without stories. That's a critical argument. So lets refute the argument.
You've already started refuting the argument by pointing at its flaws. 3d representations can tell stories etc.
Lets not argue that the critic is not an authority. Or point to non sequitur tweets (not accusing you of this) etc...