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[PsychBat!]

That is, if you quit your day job, do they have any obligation to make sure you have a livable wage? And that is a more difficult question than I think a lot of people realize. Certainly I don't think just because you do something means it must be sustainable but I also expect that they shouldn't misrepresent the work and pay either.

I drive for Uber and I can safely say no, it is not sustainable.

 

[Philly40]

Uber is at it's core a tech company, its valued by market position, brand value, userbase, software and data assets, engineering talent and other connections dealing with relevant parties. It's worth a lot by those metrics and it would be very hard for any other tech company to make significant inroads against them. Longer term prospects are the expected money makers, areas they can branch into, data they can use to gain competitive edges in other market etc.

Uber driving to me is not very different than Youtubing. It's a sorta new societal thing where you work on top of a platform that you have little say in. It can make changes that disrupt you, but you can't really affect it to any strong degree. The trade off is it also makes no requirement of how you operate, you can use it as much or as little as you want. And there's also the question of if these new sorts of jobs must naturally be sustainable. That is, if you quit your day job, do they have any obligation to make sure you have a livable wage? And that is a more difficult question than I think a lot of people realize. Certainly I don't think just because you do something means it must be sustainable but I also expect that they shouldn't misrepresent the work and pay either.

That's fair, but the concern is Uber is spending massive amounts on tech research (and lobbying), that others companies will be easily able to take advantage of.

amazon and facebook killed their competitors off early due to huge cash reserves that investors were willing to provide, not sure Uber has that luxury.

 

[Socivol]

This is why I deleted Uber. Too many alternatives in Chicago to continue to support a shitty company.

 

[mashoutposse]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

 

[Fuzzery]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

Until google beats them with waymo

 

[Deepwater]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

That must be why Uber has publicly has had scandal after scandal basically this whole year up to this point.

They're successful, yes, but their shitty leadership and management (Kalanick included) is going to lead them into a pitiful downfall eventually.

 

[Lo-Volt]

Has Uber always been fairly evil? Or has it simply become more apparent over time?

I suppose they've always been evil. There are probably anecdotes and stories like this from the beginning. But the targets of Uber's business model weren't sympathetic so it was easy to attack them. Yellow cabs in New York at least can be really lousy: they won't go outside of Manhattan, or they're "on duty" only for the right fare or whatever. Total nonsense.

 

[Ripenen]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

How sticky are they? Uber left Austin and while there was some initial outcry the city is still here. It didn't take much for people to switch to Fasten which is the alternative here. If Google introduces a competing service will anyone remain loyal Uber?

 

[elguero]

Video wasn't as bad as I expected to be honest. Kalanick is right that the market is indeed highly competitive at this point in time. As far as I know the drivers are offered no guaranteed rate or contract, the driver was acting totally on faith when he decided to buy an expensive car for the sole purpose of driving for Uber Black.

Uber provides a platform and that platform will shift over time as the company's main obligation is to the end users over the drivers as they seek to create peak demand for rides. I'm a Lyft guy myself but I'm not seeing the portrayal of Kalanick as a monster based off of this video. He was very cordial to the driver before the driver hit him with the "I wasted money on this car because of you" stuff. Certainly a douchey response to pull the personal responsibility card but Kalanick has a point imo.

 

[teacupcopter]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

You're not wrong, even though it's difficult to see if your predictions turn out correct with so many comptetitors and new tech coming into the market.


But I love how it's basically (and I'm not talking just this video, I'm talking uber as a whole / in a way the whole new wave of "disruptive" (aka no regulation, the right wings wet dream) industries...

Guy- hey it's difficult for the people who you still depend on to make your business work, possibly unethical and only legal due to shitty us laws or shady definitions of what an employer is

People- fuck em, uber is huge

 

[B_Spooky13]

So I don't really know Uber prices..

It says $1.75 a mile.. Is that it? Like do they get a hourly pay as well?

 

[Hari Seldon]

I don't know how Uber is going to survive to be honest. Their self driving car engineering work is admirable, but at the end of the day they don't exactly have the ability to make their own cars. It is *far* easier for someone to recreate the Uber app than it is for Uber to start manufacturing their own cars lol.

 

[The Technomancer]

So I don't really know Uber prices..

It says $1.75 a mile.. Is that it? Like do they get a hourly pay as well?

Nope

 

[elguero]

I don't know how Uber is going to survive to be honest. Their self driving car engineering work is admirable, but at the end of the day they don't exactly have the ability to make their own cars. It is *far* easier for someone to recreate the Uber app than it is for Uber to start manufacturing their own cars lol.

No kidding. Are people even going to be buying cars in 10 years? I think either car manufacturers will start to dominate the ridesharing game or the manufacturers will begin to make most of their money selling/leasing autonomous vehicles to ride share software companies in the somewhat near future.

 

[Ripenen]

I don't know how Uber is going to survive to be honest. Their self driving car engineering work is admirable, but at the end of the day they don't exactly have the ability to make their own cars. It is *far* easier for someone to recreate the Uber app than it is for Uber to start manufacturing their own cars lol.

Couldn't they contract that out to any number of automobile manufacturers?

 

[mashoutposse]

Until google beats them with waymo

Ha. Uber's head start can be measured in laps, but that's absolutely within the realm of possibility.

That must be why Uber has publicly has had scandal after scandal basically this whole year up to this point.

They're successful, yes, but their shitty leadership and management (Kalanick included) is going to lead them into a pitiful downfall eventually.

Those scandals are why I wish they were being traded and I could buy against that news. Scandals don't matter if you're still growing like a weed. The product is good, the end user agrees, game (nearly) over.

How sticky are they? Uber left Austin and while there was some initial outcry the city is still here. It didn't take much for people to switch to Fasten which is the alternative here. If Google introduces a competing service will anyone remain loyal Uber?

Good question/thoughts. Clearly, the other players have stepped into the whitespace created by Uber/Lyft and are opportunistically serving the demand. How quickly would Uber regain its marketshare if they reentered the game? My bet - not long.

Video wasn't as bad as I expected to be honest. Kalanick is right that the market is indeed highly competitive at this point in time. As far as I know the drivers are offered no guaranteed rate or contract, the driver was acting totally on faith when he decided to buy an expensive car for the sole purpose of driving for Uber Black.

Uber provides a platform and that platform will shift over time as the company's main obligation is to the end users over the drivers as they seek to create peak demand for rides. I'm a Lyft guy myself but I'm not seeing the portrayal of Kalanick as a monster based off of this video. He was very cordial to the driver before the driver hit him with the "I wasted money on this car because of you" stuff. Certainly a douchey response to pull the personal responsibility card but Kalanick has a point imo.

The driver made it personal, essentially saying, "You, Travis Kalanick, bankrupted me!" I think most people, CEO or not, would have responded as Kalanick did. I think the driver would have received a much better response with a less combative and personal tone and made an actual valid point.

You're not wrong, even though it's difficult to see if your predictions turn out correct with so many comptetitors and new tech coming into the market.


But I love how it's basically (and I'm not talking just this video, I'm talking uber as a whole / in a way the whole new wave of "disruptive" (aka no regulation, the right wings wet dream) industries...

Guy- hey it's difficult for the people who you still depend on to make your business work, possibly unethical and only legal due to shitty us laws or shady definitions of what an employer is

People- fuck em, uber is huge

People realize that working with a company like Uber is purely elective. Clearly, Uber driving is a strong enough deal for the drivers that continue to do it. Requesting improvements is fine; claims along the lines of "Uber driving ruined my life" earn no sympathy.

 

[Boney]

The thing I argue the most with my right wing nutjob school mates that praise how market competition undermines traditional taxi services making things better for everybody is how quickly these low barrier of entry services will plummet incomes for drivers at an astonishing rate.

Last week we had some frat boys turn over a taxi cab that was complaining about them not wanting to hop in and were waiting for the uber

 

[mashoutposse]

I don't know how Uber is going to survive to be honest. Their self driving car engineering work is admirable, but at the end of the day they don't exactly have the ability to make their own cars. It is *far* easier for someone to recreate the Uber app than it is for Uber to start manufacturing their own cars lol.

As an entrepreneur, I would rather take on a technical challenge over a market penetration challenge 10/10 times.

Nobody cares that all of our favorite multi-billion dollar apps can be easily replicated. Replicating the market adoption is where the real difficulty is - that's why companies buy other companies.

 

[Somnid]

I don't know how Uber is going to survive to be honest. Their self driving car engineering work is admirable, but at the end of the day they don't exactly have the ability to make their own cars. It is *far* easier for someone to recreate the Uber app than it is for Uber to start manufacturing their own cars lol.

Waymo needs to build a fleet of thousands of cars to be viable as a transportation service and that's not going to happen in emerging markets. Uber just needs to augment their fleet of drivers over time. That's the key difference.

 

[mashoutposse]

The thing I argue the most with my right wing nutjob school mates that praise how market competition undermines traditional taxi services making things better for everybody is how quickly these low barrier of entry services will plummet incomes for drivers at an astonishing rate.

Last week we had some frat boys turn over a taxi cab that was complaining about them not wanting to hop in and were waiting for the uber

If Uber is not suitably profitable for drivers, they will cease to have drivers. No one has to submit a 2-week notice; drivers can literally cut Uber off the second the idea enters their minds.

It's this fluidity of supply that will keep prices right where they need to be.

 

[Damaniel]

Uber's position is:
- Drivers aren't employees
- Drivers are owed nothing, not even a minimum hourly wage
- If you don't like it, don't drive for us
- Also, no one is going to be driving for us in a few years when we have self-driving cars
- Should have invested your money into Uber shares instead of a car, idiot.

In other words, he's a libertarian. Remind me never to use Uber.

 

[Forsaken82]

Uber's position is:
- Drivers aren't employees
- Drivers are owed nothing, not even a minimum hourly wage
- If you don't like it, don't drive for us
- Also, no one is going to be driving for us in a few years when we have self-driving cars
- Should have invested your money into Uber shares instead of a car, idiot.

So the only two bullet points here that I think are relevant are the first two... They are clearly employees and they are owed whatever wages you set for them...

The others however, are typical in just about any business...

You don't like your job? Quit...
You didn't see how the industry was trending? That's not our fault.

The problem I have with the whole thing is the idea of thinking Uber or Lyft or any of these unaffiliated taxi services can remotely sustain as a fulltime job...

It's even marketed as "a side hustle". Something to earn extra money on your own time when you have a few extra hours in the week to do it and yet all I keep hearing are complaints about how they don't get paid enough, they can't make a real living off of it. I remember a few trips i've had where the drivers did nothing but complain about how they can't earn a living doing this even though it's a full time job for them, meanwhile I have also had drivers who are perfectly content treating it as what it is. They love the extra money that they earn on the side of there real jobs. I mean, if you want to make a living as a Cabbie, then apply for a real cab company or limo service. You will get real benefits that way too... and maybe even a 401k!

That being said... yeah the CEO is kind of a douche... he has been for a while.

 

[Cellbomber]

Kalanick is completely right in that video. It was annoying to listen to the driver blame him for losing $97,000. Earlier on, the driver claims that beating Lyft was 'easy.'

The obvious publicly correct response is to listen, nod, and wish the driver a good night. The actual correct response is what he told him: 1) my business strategy is correct because I'm waging a brutal war with multiple high-powered entities and winning, and 2) take responsibility for your own actions.

The fact that he verbally TKO'd him instead of walking away makes him an asshole - that's exactly what I expect from a guy who grew a company to a $60 billion valuation from zero in less than a decade when he's challenged.

I wish Uber were a public company. They are a team of assassins. No-brainer buy. The level of naysaying is at odds with reality. The data is as plain as day - Uber is super-sticky with end users and will win. Once they're past the 'acquire users at all costs' stage, they will slowly turn the knobs and will eventually become a significantly profitable company.

No cause they didn't kill the cab market in major cities. People are slowly realizing cabs can be a cheaper and a faster option in a lot of scenarios especially during surge pricing. How can they raise a fair when cabs are available at a lower cost? Sure you have ride share but for a few dollars more I could have been home at my destination 20 minutes earlier in a regular cab.

Also regular cab drivers tend to be better drivers and understand the city more than just following a gps around randomly. I so wish cities would crack down on Uber drivers and require them to follow the same rules for picking and dropping off passengers. So tired of clueless drivers clogging up lanes and driving poorly to look for their passengers. For this reason i also don't see driverless cars working out well in major cities. So many cars are going to be cutting autonomous cars off and busses will not yield to anyone already. I can see busses slamming into the sides of autonomous frequently.

 

[diablos991]

The CEO could have played his cards much better here and asked the guy to email or call him the next day to discuss the details of the complaint.

He knows many of these drivers have dash cams and it was juvenile for him to dismiss his employee like this.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I can understand why the customers love a cheap car service but why would you work for Uber. They pay lousy, they don't care for you, they force you to cover some of the costs of the job and the job itself can be very stressful.

 

[LucidMomentum]

I can understand why the customers love a cheap car service but why would you work for Uber. They pay lousy, they don't care for you, they force you to cover some of the costs of the job and the job itself can be very stressful.

Because people want to make money, and for students / people who need a side job it's not too bad. Easier than becoming a taxi driver part time.

 

[Kill3r7]

I drive for Uber and I can safely say no, it is not sustainable.

Agreed. It is not sustainable period. The genie is out of the box and consumers are never going back to paying higher rates. Maybe self driving cars will save the day for them.

 

[Pagusas]

Later, the Uber driver app prompts him to rate Kalanick, as he does all his riders. Kamel gives him one star.

What the hell is this shit? he gives ALL riders one star? The hell is wrong with him

 

[mashoutposse]

No cause they didn't kill the cab market in major cities. People are slowly realizing cabs can be a cheaper and a faster option in a lot of scenarios especially during surge pricing. How can they raise a fair when cabs are available at a lower cost? Sure you have ride share but for a few dollars more I could have been home at my destination 20 minutes earlier in a regular cab.

Also regular cab drivers tend to be better drivers and understand the city more than just following a gps around randomly. I so wish cities would crack down on Uber drivers and require them to follow the same rules for picking and dropping off passengers. So tired of clueless drivers clogging up lanes and driving poorly to look for their passengers. For this reason i also don't see driverless cars working out well in major cities. So many cars are going to be cutting autonomous cars off and busses will not yield to anyone already. I can see busses slamming into the sides of autonomous frequently.

The data does not support your assertions.

 

[ZealousD]

What the hell is this shit? he gives ALL riders one star? The hell is wrong with him

You're reading it backwards. The driver rates all of his riders. He gave this particular rider a one star.

 

[mashoutposse]

Agreed. It is not sustainable period. The genie is out of the box and consumers are never going back to paying higher rates. Maybe self driving cars will save the day for them.

It's not sustainable at current pricing, but neither was Paypal giving away $20 with every new signup back in the day.

As the space matures and the winner is chosen, VC-funded subsidies will erode and pricing will return to a sustainable level for all parties. The product is too good to go back to the way things were done.

 

[sqwarlock]

What the hell is this shit? he gives ALL riders one star? The hell is wrong with him

Punctuation is important here. He's prompted to rate all of his riders, but this time he gave a one-star rating.

You seem to have read it as: "Later, the Uber driver app prompts him to rate Kalanick. As he does all his riders, Kamel gives him one star."

 

[Pagusas]

You're reading it backwards. The driver rates all of his riders. He gave this particular rider a one star.

Punctuation is important here. He's prompted to rate all of his riders, but this time he gave a one-star rating.

You seem to have read it as: "Later, the Uber driver app prompts him to rate Kalanick. As he does all his riders, Kamel gives him one star."

Ah thank you both for the correction. I no longer hate said driver.

 

[Lagamorph]

So....how is he responsible for the driver losing $97,000 exactly?
Does he just mean in lost potential income from the fare reductions?

 

[Dryk]

It's even marketed as "a side hustle". Something to earn extra money on your own time when you have a few extra hours in the week to do it and yet all I keep hearing are complaints about how they don't get paid enough, they can't make a real living off of it. I remember a few trips i've had where the drivers did nothing but complain about how they can't earn a living doing this even though it's a full time job for them, meanwhile I have also had drivers who are perfectly content treating it as what it is. They love the extra money that they earn on the side of there real jobs. I mean, if you want to make a living as a Cabbie, then apply for a real cab company or limo service. You will get real benefits that way too... and maybe even a 401k!

That being said... yeah the CEO is kind of a douche... he has been for a while.

But the company has only gotten this far because of the huge supply of people willing to do it full time. The CEO's message boils down to is "It's not my fault you fell for my scam and gave my company a bunch of cheap labour". Which is true I guess, as it is for a lot of the "sharing" economy.

 

[mashoutposse]

But the company has only gotten this far because of the huge supply of people willing to do it full time. The CEO's message boils down to is "It's not my fault you fell for my scam and gave my company a bunch of cheap labour". Which is true I guess, as it is for a lot of the "sharing" economy.

Is it a scam when the relevant financial information is transparently available in near-realtime and the person being scammed can exit the scam at any given time simply by closing an app?

 

[Kill3r7]

It's not sustainable at current pricing, but neither was Paypal giving away $20 with every new signup back in the day.

As the space matures and the winner is chosen, VC-funded subsidies will erode and pricing will return to a sustainable level for all parties. The product is too good to go back to the way things were done.

You cannot compare this to PayPal. This is the equivalent of Walmart or Home Depot coming into town and driving all the mom and pop places out of business. How is your town's hardware store doing? The traditional Taxi industry cannot compete at these rates. Look at how much money Uber is willing to eat every year.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

The problem I have with the whole thing is the idea of thinking Uber or Lyft or any of these unaffiliated taxi services can remotely sustain as a fulltime job...

It's even marketed as "a side hustle". Something to earn extra money on your own time when you have a few extra hours in the week to do it and yet all I keep hearing are complaints about how they don't get paid enough, they can't make a real living off of it. I remember a few trips i've had where the drivers did nothing but complain about how they can't earn a living doing this even though it's a full time job for them, meanwhile I have also had drivers who are perfectly content treating it as what it is. They love the extra money that they earn on the side of there real jobs. I mean, if you want to make a living as a Cabbie, then apply for a real cab company or limo service. You will get real benefits that way too... and maybe even a 401k!

That being said... yeah the CEO is kind of a douche... he has been for a while.

Actually they've been pushing real hard as a full time job. I've been looking around at jobs recently and sites like indeed have sponsored suggestions saying I should become a full time driver (while I'm search for software developer jobs). I get emails saying "have you looked at driving for Uber?". That doesn't really seem like an advertisement for a side hustle.

 

[mashoutposse]

You cannot compare this to PayPal. This is the equivalent of Walmart or Home Depot coming into town and driving all the mom and pop places out of business. How is your town's hardware store doing? The traditional Taxi industry cannot compete at these rates. Look at how much money Uber is willing to eat every year.

People gravitate to the best value propositions. Always and forever.

Big box stores won because they offered incredible selection, long and convenient hours, AND low prices. They won because they offered customers a far superior experience.

Uber is doing the same to taxi companies, with a steroid injection in the form of VC-subsidized prices taking the place of 30-50 years of branding. If this strategy is wrong, Uber will run out of money as they fail to convince end users to pay more and conventional taxis will once again own their former share of the market.

I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[mashoutposse]

Actually they've been pushing real hard as a full time job. I've been looking around at jobs recently and sites like indeed have sponsored suggestions saying I should become a full time driver (while I'm search for software developer jobs). I get emails saying "have you looked at driving for Uber?". That doesn't really seem like an advertisement for a side hustle.

Why be overly concerned with the marketing message when you can literally try it for a couple of hours and see for yourself?

Can a driver advocate explain why drivers continue to drive despite there being zero penalties for quitting instantly?

 

[Cimarron]

I dunno. He was a douche but I agree with him.

 

[wildfire]

What the hell is this shit? he gives ALL riders one star? The hell is wrong with him

You misread it. The app asks him to do something he has to do with all riders. He chooses to give this rider 1 star.