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Web Design and Development |OT| Pixel perfect is dead, long live responsive design

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I am so behind in the times.

I only know parts of html, css, and php and javascript out of necessity when I was still using Front Page and Dreamweaver to make my websites just to display art work. XD (pretty much googling for snippets of code and pasting where necessary).

I feel like I don't really have motivation to learn and catch up unless I pay and start going to classes for it though.. which sucks. :l I really want to be able to make a pretty and easy-to-use site as a portfolio for my stuff or to display webcomics.

I also tend to really dislike fanciness to sites since I want it to be able to display and not break or take up resources/require plugins. So does that mean I don't need to learn too much and can stick to html/css? XD
What's html5 even? lol So behind..

Don't feel bad about not knowing what HTML5 is. No one does. It's a lot of little things being introduced years apart, so it's hard to pin down the benefits.

But when it comes to learning stuff... you don't need to go to school, all you need is the right inspiration! Just find one web technology you want to learn better, like JavaScript, and do online classes or read small books (like eloquent JavaScript). Do this often enough and you'll hit this point of momentum where learning everything else just comes easier.

If you do actually want to learn JS, I can try to give people lesson plans, and maybe even little challenges here and there to keep people motivated. If anyone is actually interested.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
I also tend to really dislike fanciness to sites since I want it to be able to display and not break or take up resources/require plugins. So does that mean I don't need to learn too much and can stick to html/css? XD

When I was getting myself back in the web development game in 2012 after five years out, everything seemed like it had totally changed. Oh you need these libraries and stuff like this... it's only 12KB, lightweight!!1!1! I still learned the new stuff I needed to, but I prefer straight-up HTML, CSS and Javascript. Too many people are going about recommending jQuery and shit for mundane things. Just learn what you need to learn. Build on it from there. Chances are if you have a fundamental understanding of JavaScript you can do just about anything you need.

Just don't use tables. ;)
 
Oh shit, I am so fucking glad you are here to let me know that I've been living in a pocket dimension this entire time.

The Stallman-esque, stubborn obstinance is disconnected from everyday reality. Few of us can afford to take such decisive sides over these issues, and it really isn't a very good career decision either.
 

Dragon

Banned
I'm in charge of a decent size (~50 million page views a month) website that was bought a few months ago. We are eventually going to have to convert to use a parent company's tool where they recreated source control and an IDE through a fucking website. I'm absolutely flabberghasted why anyone thought this was a good idea but have no control and I'm going to eventually have to say goodbye to Sublime Text. Please GAF console me :/.

When I was getting myself back in the web development game in 2012 after five years out, everything seemed like it had totally changed. Oh you need these libraries and stuff like this... it's only 12KB, lightweight!!1!1! I still learned the new stuff I needed to, but I prefer straight-up HTML, CSS and Javascript. Too many people are going about recommending jQuery and shit for mundane things. Just learn what you need to learn. Build on it from there. Chances are if you have a fundamental understanding of JavaScript you can do just about anything you need.

Just don't use tables. ;)

It depends what your use case is. If you're building a web app, I think other libraries and frameworks make sense. Do you really want to deal with browser differences in certain things if you can avoid them?
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
I'm in charge of a decent size (~50 million page views a month) website that was bought a few months ago. We are eventually going to have to convert to use a parent company's tool where they recreated source control and an IDE through a fucking website. I'm absolutely flabberghasted why anyone thought this was a good idea but have no control and I'm going to eventually have to say goodbye to Sublime Text. Please GAF console me :/.

Time to look for a new place of employment.
 

Dragon

Banned
Time to look for a new place of employment.

:////////////////

I'm hoping to retain some sort of autonomy because I just built a notifications engine through redis (with pub sub) that I'm really proud of, but the point of this horrible web IDE/source is to have all the companies under the parent company use it so we don't have repeat code everywhere.

I know for a fact I wouldn't be paid what I make here elsewhere and I don't like going backwards either :/. You're right, career wise it'd make sense to eventually start looking.
 
Most of us probably use whatever the work environment we entered into uses. "I don't use X or Y" doesn't go very far in interviews.



There's absolutely nothing wrong, difficult or "command line tools"y with ASP.NET MVC on IIS. This is nonsense.

I'd still recommend a rMBP with Parallels for Windows work, but that's more from a hardware perspective.

What I am saying is, if you are an ASP developer you only work on ASP projects in Microsoft's IDE, etc. For the rest of the web which does not preclude the use of costly, proprietary software, Windows will hold you back. It's *possible* to develop small/medium/large Rails or PHP or Java, etc apps on Windows. But like I said, I see those devs struggle when really they do not need to. Mac or Linux, etc.

Modern web development to me is Github, Bower, Grunt, Sass, Angular, Backbone, etc. We may have different definitions. That's fine.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I wonder if any other gaffers were at ng-conf. I was there, and probably hard to miss. So many gaffers seem to use angular, makes me both excited and competitive.
 

Zoe

Member
What I am saying is, if you are an ASP developer you only work on ASP projects in Microsoft's IDE, etc. For the rest of the web which does not preclude the use of costly, proprietary software, Windows will hold you back. It's *possible* to develop small/medium/large Rails or PHP or Java, etc apps on Windows. But like I said, I see those devs struggle when really they do not need to. Mac or Linux, etc.

Modern web development to me is Github, Bower, Grunt, Sass, Angular, Backbone, etc. We may have different definitions. That's fine.

You keep saying costly and proprietary, but for many corporations and institutions that is a non-issue. They're already running everything with Windows and have licenses that cover all of that.

Even as an individual, many of the tools are available either free or low-cost, and having to find Windows hosting is the same as having to find Linux hosting.
 

explodet

Member
'Sup guys, long time backend (LAMP) and frontend (HTML/CSS/Javascript/) dev here.
Don't ever listen to my advice, I'm a hack :D

Can anybody suggest a content and user management system in LAMP that isn't one of the big guys? (Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal)
It'll be mostly used for blogging.
I don't have the time to write it myself.
 
You keep saying costly and proprietary, but for many corporations and institutions that is a non-issue. They're already running everything with Windows and have licenses that cover all of that.

Even as an individual, many of the tools are available either free or low-cost, and having to find Windows hosting is the same as having to find Linux hosting.

That's great! Again, if you are a .Net developer.

But for others that wish to remain platform agnostic, there are other choices.

I get it, you love Windows and .Net. But my whooole original post had nothing to do with .Net. It was about LAMP stacks. And just as a refresher, I said coding for LAMP stacks on a Windows machine was not desirable. I then said Linux or Mac is preferable (Mac being Unix). And then you: .Net, etc. OK, great. Understood.
 

Prelithe

Member
What I am saying is, if you are an ASP developer you only work on ASP projects in Microsoft's IDE, etc. For the rest of the web which does not preclude the use of costly, proprietary software, Windows will hold you back. It's *possible* to develop small/medium/large Rails or PHP or Java, etc apps on Windows. But like I said, I see those devs struggle when really they do not need to. Mac or Linux, etc.

Modern web development to me is Github, Bower, Grunt, Sass, Angular, Backbone, etc. We may have different definitions. That's fine.

Personally I've had little problems with 'modern' web dev on Windows. The only time I've had problems is compiling C/C++ code which has been specifically written for Linux.

What I use: PHP, Node.JS, C#, Java Git, Grunt, Bower, Karma, Jasmine, Angular, Ember, Backbone

Plus I've used Python, Ruby, and Heroku for hobby projects and have had no problems so far. And yes, I have used Mac/Linux for development also. I've also done iOS dev + server admin on Linux.

People need to get it out of their head that Windows is somehow way behind the curve. It's like the PHP argument all over again. Of course Mac is superior due to the unix base, but Windows isn't that far behind.
 

vooglie

Member
Oh shit, I am so fucking glad you are here to let me know that I've been living in a pocket dimension this entire time.

So what do you do when the place of your employment has been using TFS for 5 years?

Get the fuck over it and get your shit done is what you do.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I feel like my original post was misconstrued from 'I hope you get to choose to NEVER work with SVN/TFS', when really what I meant was 'I hope you aren't forced to use those because the alternatives are leagues better'.

So what do you do when the place of your employment has been using TFS for 5 years?

Get the fuck over it and get your shit done is what you do.

As far as that...

I've turned down fulltime positions at agencies that do nothing but .NET, TFS, VB/C#, and whatever else Windows stack they use, so I guess that's what I do.

I guess I am thankful to be in Portland to have those opportunities. My last gig I had to deal a ton with ASP.NET/DNN (hell, I even built an iOS/Android app from scratch in Mono...) for 4.5 years but I eventually moved on because that shit's not worth it, in my opinion of course.

I guess I got it 'easy' then? I don't know. I just know I'd never work in that environment again because the advantages just aren't there for me.
 

zou

Member
http://allinthehead.com/retro/367/why-is-progressive-enhancement-so-unpopular

Why is Progressive Enhancement so unpopular?

something to think about. I still believe progressive enhancements is the way the web should work. Unless you're doing something that specifically requires one of these technologies (say, a game using WebGL) then the information you put online should be accessible in some form and you should plan accordingly.

bonus -> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/

Fuck this shit. Progressive enhancement just like responsive design is complete garbage and a waste of time. As is that blog post, guy really doesn't know what he's talking about. He's comparing jQuery and Angular as if they have anything in common, other than both being written in JS.

We're seeing more and more "web apps". Guess what, my LOB app is built in Angular and doesn't work with JS disabled. On the other hand, for regular sites jQuery & co don't really add much beyond useless eye candy. Which I'm not gonna bother with, as no one cares about it (other than the designer). Instead I'm going to spend the time optimizing assets, page load speed and rendering. Since that directly translates to more sales/leads/revenue/views (whatever). Ironically enough, the majority of those "enhanced" sites pack the header full of garbage fonts and plugins (always 1 file per), load 100s of assets from one domain, ignore caching and are generally slow as shit. Some geniuses don't even load a proper stylesheet without JS enabled or don't have sane default fonts (Times New Roman).

And I'm not even going to go into those brain dead morons that have a basic blog that renders everything via javascript.

/rant
 
That's great! Again, if you are a .Net developer.

But for others that wish to remain platform agnostic, there are other choices.

I get it, you love Windows and .Net. But my whooole original post had nothing to do with .Net. It was about LAMP stacks. And just as a refresher, I said coding for LAMP stacks on a Windows machine was not desirable. I then said Linux or Mac is preferable (Mac being Unix). And then you: .Net, etc. OK, great. Understood.

Your posts don't come across as "platform agnostic", they come across as anti-Windows / anti-Microsoft. It's a tired perspective that doesn't hold much merit in modern times.

Working with .NET / SQL Server? Start up a Windows VM. Working in LAMP? Start up a Linux VM. Want the best of both worlds? Buy a Mac and run Parallels.

I feel like my original post was misconstrued from 'I hope you get to choose to NEVER work with SVN/TFS', when really what I meant was 'I hope you aren't forced to use those because the alternatives are leagues better'.



As far as that...

I've turned down fulltime positions at agencies that do nothing but .NET, TFS, VB/C#, and whatever else Windows stack they use, so I guess that's what I do.

I guess I am thankful to be in Portland to have those opportunities. My last gig I had to deal a ton with ASP.NET/DNN (hell, I even built an iOS/Android app from scratch in Mono...) for 4.5 years but I eventually moved on because that shit's not worth it, in my opinion of course.

I guess I got it 'easy' then? I don't know. I just know I'd never work in that environment again because the advantages just aren't there for me.

DNN is stuck for whatever reason in WebForms. ASP.NET has improved in leaps and bounds since WebForms.
 
Your posts don't come across as "platform agnostic", they come across as anti-Windows / anti-Microsoft. It's a tired perspective that doesn't hold much merit in modern times.

Working with .NET / SQL Server? Start up a Windows VM. Working in LAMP? Start up a Linux VM. Want the best of both worlds? Buy a Mac and run Parallels.



DNN is stuck for whatever reason in WebForms. ASP.NET has improved in leaps and bounds since WebForms.

The majority of my web career has been in asp.net.
Dat Razor, so good.
 

Hellix

Member
I feel like my original post was misconstrued from 'I hope you get to choose to NEVER work with SVN/TFS', when really what I meant was 'I hope you aren't forced to use those because the alternatives are leagues better'.

As far as that...

I've turned down fulltime positions at agencies that do nothing but .NET, TFS, VB/C#, and whatever else Windows stack they use, so I guess that's what I do.

I guess I am thankful to be in Portland to have those opportunities. My last gig I had to deal a ton with ASP.NET/DNN (hell, I even built an iOS/Android app from scratch in Mono...) for 4.5 years but I eventually moved on because that shit's not worth it, in my opinion of course.

I guess I got it 'easy' then? I don't know. I just know I'd never work in that environment again because the advantages just aren't there for me.

I am still less than a year in my current and only job thus far as a web developer, where I have been using .NET, TFS, and VB/C#. I been learning a lot using these tools, and I haven't really felt frustrated using them aside from my own ineptitude.

Obviously, you sound pretty experienced, so I am wondering if you mind expanding a bit about development on Windows software that is not very advantageous or simply "not worth" dealing with? Since you actually turned down fulltime positions that use anything related to Windows, I am assuming it is a very good reason, although I am sure it all comes down to personal preference as well.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
I feel like my original post was misconstrued from 'I hope you get to choose to NEVER work with SVN/TFS', when really what I meant was 'I hope you aren't forced to use those because the alternatives are leagues better'.



As far as that...

I've turned down fulltime positions at agencies that do nothing but .NET, TFS, VB/C#, and whatever else Windows stack they use, so I guess that's what I do.

I guess I am thankful to be in Portland to have those opportunities. My last gig I had to deal a ton with ASP.NET/DNN (hell, I even built an iOS/Android app from scratch in Mono...) for 4.5 years but I eventually moved on because that shit's not worth it, in my opinion of course.

I guess I got it 'easy' then? I don't know. I just know I'd never work in that environment again because the advantages just aren't there for me.

Totally agreed. In my experience, jobs that use those tech stacks are almost always enterprise-y, and that's just not for me. Moves too slowly, too much bureaucracy, etc. Most of the interesting jobs in my area use Scala, Node, Ruby or Python and I'd take all of those waaaay before I'd think about diving into a Windows stack. I wouldn't even work somewhere that's still using a Java EE, etc stack, to be honest.

I realize that's mostly personal preference, so nothing against y'all who are enjoying your jobs.
 

Daffy Duck

Member
When I was getting myself back in the web development game in 2012 after five years out, everything seemed like it had totally changed. Oh you need these libraries and stuff like this... it's only 12KB, lightweight!!1!1! I still learned the new stuff I needed to, but I prefer straight-up HTML, CSS and Javascript. Too many people are going about recommending jQuery and shit for mundane things. Just learn what you need to learn. Build on it from there. Chances are if you have a fundamental understanding of JavaScript you can do just about anything you need.

Just don't use tables. ;)

Unless you need to display tabular data. ;)
 
People need to get it out of their head that Windows is somehow way behind the curve. It's like the PHP argument all over again. Of course Mac is superior due to the unix base, but Windows isn't that far behind.

Well, that's my point exactly. In collaborative environments, in my experience anyway, most developers are on Mac or Linux. Hell, even attending An Event Apart this year, looking around the room, it was the PC users that were the minority. That's just how it is. And if you enjoy using Windows, that's your preference. But even a .Net developer above mentioned something about buying a Mac to experience "the best of both worlds." Again, my point exactly.

Look, all I can speak on is experiences. And from mine, going into startups and ad agencies, it's almost always Mac.

I feel like we're getting nowhere with this argument, so I'll stop replying about it. But I stand by my original recommendation, that being I suggest getting a Mac or installing Linux.
 

scurker

Member
Fuck this shit. Progressive enhancement just like responsive design is complete garbage and a waste of time.

Uh what? Progressive enhancement isn't about building a "javascript free" site, but building a site that can still successfully work on a device that may or may not have more limited capabilities. More and more people are browsing the web on mobile devices that's probably on a crappy connection. Remember, every browser is "no-js" while its still downloading the javascript so it's about focusing on content first from the bottom up, then everything else will fall into line. That's really what people are trying to access first on a website is to find the content, no?

And care to inform the rest of us why responsive design is, "complete garbage and a waste of time?"
 
Well, that's my point exactly. In collaborative environments, in my experience anyway, most developers are on Mac or Linux. Hell, even attending An Event Apart this year, looking around the room, it was the PC users that were the minority. That's just how it is. And if you enjoy using Windows, that's your preference. But even a .Net developer above mentioned something about buying a Mac to experience "the best of both worlds." Again, my point exactly.

Look, all I can speak on is experiences. And from mine, going into startups and ad agencies, it's almost always Mac.

I feel like we're getting nowhere with this argument, so I'll stop replying about it. But I stand by my original recommendation, that being I suggest getting a Mac or installing Linux.

And that would have nothing to do with the fact that MacBook Pros set the bar for build quality in professional laptops.

I'm about 70% .NET, 20% Angular, 10% PHP right now, and I use a MBP for work. That has absolutely nothing to do with ASP.NET or Windows or IIS, it's simply the fact that Apple hardware is good shit and I can run Windows seamlessly alongside it.

But, look, I'll be done with this argument, it's derailing the thread badly. All that really needs to be said is that anyone should be able to post about MVC, ASP.NET, IIS, TFS, etc. in this thread without a crowd of Stallmans chirping about the evils of Microsoft, Corporate America or what have you.
 
And that would have nothing to do with the fact that MacBook Pros set the bar for build quality in professional laptops.

I'm about 70% .NET, 20% Angular, 10% PHP right now, and I use a MBP for work. That has absolutely nothing to do with ASP.NET or Windows or IIS, it's simply the fact that Apple hardware is good shit and I can run Windows seamlessly alongside it.

Yessss...I PC game on my Mac. I RUN WINDOWS. Ya'll hilarious.

So uhh...CSS regions...
 

kodecraft

Member
Finally a real thread on this discipline. I am in school at a community college for the front-end side of things when it comes to the web.

I eat, sleep, and breathe this as I believe browser tech will only get better as in what it is able to do.

Personally, I am not a fan of sites like Codecademy and others that give you things to do and you just.....do them. Maybe I have a 'hacker' style of learning, as I am more interested in diving head first into things.

I love this stuff, but I don't know much yet. Glad to see others with some 'real-world' experience in here.

Sidenote: In school we use a Mac and we recently ditched full site design in Dreamweaver to the framework like Foundation, which does everything for us. I got to keep it real, I'm not learning shizznit from this approach.

I just find myself at home on my PC, with Sublime T, and going to town. I can sink 6 hrs easily into front-end 'hacking' without batting an eye. My XB1 is collecting dust from this.

You guys have posted links I never knew about, and I know quite a few.

----------------------

It's also funny that W3schools is looked down upon as my professor that's teaching us Web Design is constantly pointing us to it.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Finally a real thread on this discipline. I am in school at a community college for the front-end side of things when it comes to the web.

I eat, sleep, and breathe this as I believe browser tech will only get better as in what it is able to do.

Personally, I am not a fan of sites like Codecademy and others that give you things to do and you just.....do them. Maybe I have a 'hacker' style of learning, as I am more interested in diving head first into things.

I love this stuff, but I don't know much yet. Glad to see others with so 'real-world' experience in here.

Sidenote: In school we use a Mac and we recently ditched full site design in Dreamweaver to the framework like Foundation, which does everything for us. I got to keep it real, I'm not learning shizznit from this approach.

I just find myself at home on my PC, with Sublime T, and going to town. I can sink 6 hrs easily into front-end 'hacking' without batting an eye. My XB1 is collecting dust from this.

You guys have posted links I never knew about, and I know quite a few.

----------------------

It's also funny that W3schools is looked down upon as my professor that's teaching us Web Design is constantly pointing us to it.

I feel like I just read a speech from Wall Street, if the film was based on web design.
 

Infinite

Member
Hey, would anyone be willing to help me out with some PHP? I'm writing a code for a buddy that displays on his site if his twitch.tv stream is currently live or not. If it's live then a green traffic light image is displayed or outputed. If the stream is not live then a red one displayed

Here's my code atm

Code:
<?php
       $json_array = json_decode(file_get_contents("https://api.twitch.tv/kraken/streams/mybuddysstream"), true);
        if ($json_array['stream']['name'] == "mybuddysstream") 
		{echo "Stream Status: <a href=http://www.twitch.tv/mybuddysstream><img src='images/online.png'></a>";}
	else 
		{echo "Stream Status: <a href=http://www.twitch.tv/mybuddysstream><img src='images/offline.png'></a>";}
?>

My issue is when I test it locally through WAMP I get the following output

g3wMPFK.jpg

I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do to correct the errors. Any guidance will be appreciated. Thanks! This is an awesome thread!
 

Prelithe

Member
Hey, would anyone be willing to help me out with some PHP? I'm writing a code for a buddy that displays on his site if his twitch.tv stream is currently live or not. If it's live then a green traffic light image is displayed or outputed. If the stream is not live then a red one displayed

This should help you. You don't have OpenSSL configured in your PHP ini.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/...s-did-you-forget-to-enable-it-when-you-config

Next time when you're stuck, just google the error - most of the time you'll find it very quickly.
 
Quick question. I'm able to get hosting through my parent's provider, so all I'll need to do is buy a domain and I can get going on my first site, which I'm really excited about.

I'm planning on using Wordpress as my CMS since it seems the most welcoming to a beginner. Once I begin to advance more with design and begin working with Javascript or CSS, for example, will I be able to really customize things more? I'm just wondering if Wordpress will limit me at all. Thanks for any advice.
 

scurker

Member
Quick question. I'm able to get hosting through my parent's provider, so all I'll need to do is buy a domain and I can get going on my first site, which I'm really excited about.

I'm planning on using Wordpress as my CMS since it seems the most welcoming to a beginner. Once I begin to advance more with design and begin working with Javascript or CSS, for example, will I be able to really customize things more? I'm just wondering if Wordpress will limit me at all. Thanks for any advice.

Depends on what you're trying to customize. It's pretty easy to adjust the way wordpress displays its standard layout, this is a good place to start. Another good place to look is to try modifying the default theme which is located under /wp-content/themes or try to create a child theme branching off of that. Wordpress allows you to do a lot of customization but you might run into some roadblocks depending on how complex you want those customizations to be.
 
Depends on what you're trying to customize. It's pretty easy to adjust the way wordpress displays its standard layout, this is a good place to start. Another good place to look is to try modifying the default theme which is located under /wp-content/themes or try to create a child theme branching off of that. Wordpress allows you to do a lot of customization but you might run into some roadblocks depending on how complex you want those customizations to be.

Thanks! I'll look into it a bit more. Sounds pretty good. I don't think I will be doing anything too complex.
 

explodet

Member
Welp, installing both Bugzilla and Redmine on shared hosting has resulted in failure. Just got Mantis BT running, but good golly it's not very easy on the eyes.

Maybe I should just pony up the $7 a month for Pivotal...
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Welp, installing both Bugzilla and Redmine on shared hosting has resulted in failure. Just got Mantis BT running, but good golly it's not very easy on the eyes.

Maybe I should just pony up the $7 a month for Pivotal...

Pivotal is great - there is a bit of a learning curve with some of our clients though.
 

explodet

Member
Yeah, Pivotal's great, already used it on a bunch of projects - though I wasn't the one paying for it, and I'm on a budget.
Yeah, I'm cheap. Go away.
 
Fuck this shit. Progressive enhancement just like responsive design is complete garbage and a waste of time. As is that blog post, guy really doesn't know what he's talking about. He's comparing jQuery and Angular as if they have anything in common, other than both being written in JS.

/rant


Hah, you're one to talk. You don't seem to know what oyu're talking about either. Responsive Design can be misused, like anything else, but its HARDLY a waste of time.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Been playing around with display:flex and oh my god, it's a godsend. I urge everyone to go to css tricks and read their great howto on it, because it's pretty complex. But I just nested some flex boxes, specified some alignments and I have a beautiful responsive list.

Throw in some media queries and I should be set.
 
Been playing around with display:flex and oh my god, it's a godsend. I urge everyone to go to css tricks and read their great howto on it, because it's pretty complex. But I just nested some flex boxes, specified some alignments and I have a beautiful responsive list.

Throw in some media queries and I should be set.

It's great and all but there's no proper IE support of it before IE 11, which is insane. I would probably go for it on personal sites, but for anything professional it's just this awesome thing mocking me.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
It's great and all but there's no proper IE support of it before IE 11, which is insane. I would probably go for it on personal sites, but for anything professional it's just this awesome thing mocking me.

Yeah it's hard for me to even acknowledge that technologies exist when they don't run before IE10. Hardly any point unless you're building something explicitly for iOS or Android.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
It's great and all but there's no proper IE support of it before IE 11, which is insane. I would probably go for it on personal sites, but for anything professional it's just this awesome thing mocking me.

Luckily I'm not targeting ie whatsoever with this project (it's a cordova app aimed at android and ios) - as far as I can see, no problems! Also, fuck ie. Ruins everyone's fun.
 
Yeah, it's not necessarily that w3schools is absolutely terrible everywhere, but the MDN is SO much better it's ridiculous.

Also, w3schools is still mostly terrible on every subject.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I am still less than a year in my current and only job thus far as a web developer, where I have been using .NET, TFS, and VB/C#. I been learning a lot using these tools, and I haven't really felt frustrated using them aside from my own ineptitude.

Obviously, you sound pretty experienced, so I am wondering if you mind expanding a bit about development on Windows software that is not very advantageous or simply "not worth" dealing with? Since you actually turned down fulltime positions that use anything related to Windows, I am assuming it is a very good reason, although I am sure it all comes down to personal preference as well.

It really comes down to the fact that if you don't want to do .NET or C#, then why would you use a Windows OS? I just don't see the benefits when the community and the tools are so geared towards a *nix stack.

Yeah, it's not necessarily that w3schools is absolutely terrible everywhere, but the MDN is SO much better it's ridiculous.

Also, w3schools is still mostly terrible on every subject.

MDN might be the best documentation of anything ever. It's too good.
 

flyover

Member
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$129

Pretty sure it's Mac, and not Windows yet.

Judging by the video preview (http://macaw.co/peek/), it's pretty snazzy, actually! All I kept waiting for in the video was a look at the code being generated, and it was nice! I haven't used any WYSIWYG-ish tools in forever, but this might be good for quickly starting projects, and then switching to hand-coding.

They'll probably be acquired by someone before year's end, if that's what they want.
 

KiKaL

Member
So we have a client with a pretty small budget but wants something modern and responsive. So I know Bootstrap or Foundation would be great to rapidly build a good looking responsive site.

My question, is what is the best way to design a site that would be easy to integrate into Bootstrap or Foundation? I am purely a developer so I wouldn't be the one designing it either but would like to give our designer some guidelines to make the design work well with one of those frameworks? Any one have any suggestions? I know having the designer build to a grid is one thing but that is about it.

Every time I try and Google for some help I just seem to find general tutorials on how to build with those frameworks and not design for.

edit - Just came across this http://vandelaydesign.com/blog/tools/13-resources-to-design-for-bootstrap/ which is helpful
 
I feel like my original post was misconstrued from 'I hope you get to choose to NEVER work with SVN/TFS', when really what I meant was 'I hope you aren't forced to use those because the alternatives are leagues better'.



As far as that...

I've turned down fulltime positions at agencies that do nothing but .NET, TFS, VB/C#, and whatever else Windows stack they use, so I guess that's what I do.

I guess I am thankful to be in Portland to have those opportunities. My last gig I had to deal a ton with ASP.NET/DNN (hell, I even built an iOS/Android app from scratch in Mono...) for 4.5 years but I eventually moved on because that shit's not worth it, in my opinion of course.

I guess I got it 'easy' then? I don't know. I just know I'd never work in that environment again because the advantages just aren't there for me.

ASP.NET is one of those things where if you get it, it's really easy to put something together quickly without a whole lot of spaghetti, but you have to overcome a huge learning curve to not produce crap.

There's nothing really wrong with ASP.NET WebForms and DotNetNuke, just that they're showing their age don't really apply as well to modern projects. If you want to quickly get an application up that binds to a database and shows some quick grids, using .NET WebForms with some Telerik controls will have you a relatively feature-rich starting point in a matter of hours.

What do you have against TFS? What does say, GIT, do, that TFS doesn't? The only problem I've had with TFS is that it doesn't support offline modifications well, and you have to explicitly check files out before you commit them. That's a problem on the DNN end of things, where DNN modifies its own code when doing upgrades or installing modules, so if you're not careful when performing an upgrade, you won't commit everything to source control that changed. Supposedly TFS2013 fixes all that and has proper offline source control, though.

I ask this question because everyone in my workspace complains about TFS too, says we should switch to Git, but when I ask "why", I have yet to hear one compelling reason to actually do so. The answer I always get is, "it's just better".
 
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