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What About the Guys Who Do Fit the 'Gay Stereotype'?

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This is obtuse and wrong. Not everyone finds the same people hot, you know.

How I feel is not obtuse or wrong. People finding excuses to exclude is, and while I guess some people have such stringent preferences (which I am inherently suspicious of as I cannot fathom their method of thinking) it just seems weird to me.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Isn't this just an excuse to not give someone a chance? I genuinely don't understand preferences. Hotness is not a checklist for me, someone is either attractive or not. It doesn't matter what color their hair is, what race they are or what their body weight may be. Hot is hot.



This is exactly what I don't understand. Is something wrong with your penis?

You're not really making sense. Unless you're finding absolutely everything equally hot, "hotness" isn't some characteristic for you that's totally independent of every measurable thing about them. What makes someone hot? You can defend some sort of holistic notion of hotness whereby it's not a point system or anything and is subject to change a little bit from day to day, but it's probably still going to be possible to come up with a reasonably good system for guessing whether or not you'll find a particular person hot.
 
How I feel is not obtuse or wrong. People finding excuses to exclude is, and while I guess some people have such stringent preferences (which I am inherently suspicious of as I cannot fathom their method of thinking) it just seems weird to me.

It seems that you cannot put yourselves in anyone else's shoes. You seem no different than some straight guy not being able to fathom how a guy could be sexually attracted to another guy. Or a bisexual person being unable to fathom how not everyone could be attracted to both sexes.
 

RM8

Member
How I feel is not obtuse or wrong. People finding excuses to exclude is, and while I guess some people have such stringent preferences (which I am inherently suspicious of as I cannot fathom their method of thinking) it just seems weird to me.
Well, lol if you think we can decide what we find attractive and what we don't.

Do you also think food is either "tasty" and "not tasty", and that all people should enjoy the same dishes?
 
It seems that you cannot put yourselves in anyone else's shoes. You seem no different than some straight guy not being able to fathom how a guy could be sexually attracted to another guy. Or a bisexual person being unable to fathom how not everyone could be attracted to both sexes.

Yes, I have this problem. That's why I'm sitting here wondering why people are like that.

Do you also think food is either "tasty" and "not tasty", and that all people should enjoy the same dishes?

The issue for me is why. It's something I don't get.
 
Yes, I have this problem. That's why I'm sitting here wondering why people are like that.

Are you bisexual by any chance? Otherwise I don't see how it is a struggle to get this.

Why do some men like men but not women?

Why do most men only like women?

Hot is hot after all, so why isn't everyone having sex with everyone?
 

Trigger

Member
Disagree. First, because my own ethnicity is all over the place and it has dictated NOTHING about me or my personality in my life. Second, because I have friends from diverse ethnic backgrounds and there's not any "essential difference" in my eyes, other than how they look. Third, BECAUSE people perceive people differently based on looks THIS problem exists. So I repeat, those are traits that are not important to me at all.

Here I would disagree also.

For example, would someone identify with being 5'6'', to the point of deciding that that was "essential" to their identity? Probably not. I don't bemoan people for whom their sexuality is a strong part of their identity, but I don't think that it should be perceived that it necessarily is to everyone. Traits are only essential to your identity if the environment in which you are brought up states that they are (and/or you accept that they are).

So if your traits aren't important to your identity what is? I don't think any one thing determines your destiny, but they help shape a lot of your experiences which in turn form the basis of your identity.
 

RM8

Member
So if your traits aren't important to your identity what is? I don't think any one thing determines your destiny, but they help shape a lot of your experiences which in turn form the basis of your identity.
My personality, maybe? Sorry, but my ethnicity hasn't done anything for my identity. Nothing. My sexual orientation either, but this is a case-specific situation. For example, Mumei mentioned he discovered feminism (which I'm guessing is now a strong view of him) because he's gay. But this is situational and not really inherent.

The issue for me is why. It's something I don't get.
You don't have to get it, it's pretty irrational. Finding a specific set of genitals in the first place is pretty arbitrary, but it's how it is. Deep voices make me swoon, high voices don't - I didn't decide this based on any rationalization or anything.
 
Are you bisexual by any chance? Otherwise I don't see how it is a struggle to get this.

Why do some men like men but not women?

Why do most men only like women?

Hot is hot after all, so why isn't everyone having sex with everyone?

Every single one of those is a great question which I wonder about from time to time and have no answer for at the moment.

I do wonder though if you are conflating sexual preference with sexual orientation in this case with such a line of questioning.
 
I do wonder though if you are conflating sexual preference with sexual orientation in this case with such a line of questioning.

I see sexual preference and sexual orientation as overlapping. I'm not sure you can separate them, and I think neither is consciously chosen. I think it may be possible to override sexual preferences while it is impossible to override sexual orientation, but I don't see why everyone should have to be willing to sleep with overweight black hookers of the appropriate gender in the name of equality and tolerance.

*The overweight black hookers is a reference to a tag on GAF, no offense meant to any black/overweight GAFers. Or any hookers.
 

gerg

Member
So if your traits aren't important to your identity what is? I don't think any one thing determines your destiny, but they help shape a lot of your experiences which in turn form the basis of your identity.

My argument is not that no traits will be important to your identity, but that the list of which traits are will be dependent upon someone's own personal experience.

Ultimately, I think it fair to reason that we are defined by those traits which are most distinguishable within our community. (Hence, the use of those traits to differentiate ourselves from others, and vice versa.) However, which traits count as distinguishable will vary from community to community. My point with the example of "being 5'6"" not being a defining trait is that that is a very average height - most people are around that height, so they will probably experience very little treatment related specifically to it.

But, people who are very short or very tall most likely do have unique experiences related to being particularly short or tall, and so it would be reasonable for them to define themselves, in part, as being short or tall.

I myself have grown up with very little importance placed on sexuality, receiving very little to no discrimination or differentiation because I am gay. (Arguably, I am all the more fortunate for this.) As a result, I have never felt defined by it.

Other people, however, have had very unfortunate experiences related to being gay, where their community has made a point to differentiate them based on that factor. To them it is perfectly reasonable and understandable that they should then define themselves by their sexuality, for undoubtedly those experiences (particular to their sexual orientation) will have helped define their character.
 

Trigger

Member
My personality, maybe? Sorry, but my ethnicity hasn't done anything for my identity. Nothing. My sexual orientation either, but this is a case-specific situation. For example, Mumei mentioned he discovered feminism (which I'm guessing is now a strong view of him) because he's gay. But this is situational and not really inherent.

Hmm, I suppose that's where we disagree. I don't see a personality as some innate thing that's separate from your traits/environment. Either way, it's just weird to me seeing someone say that their ethnicity/sexual orientation isn't important.

My argument is not that no traits will be important to your identity, but that the list of which traits are will be dependent upon someone's own personal experience.

Ultimately, I think it fair to reason that we are defined by those traits which are most distinguishable within our community. (Hence, the use of those traits to differentiate ourselves from others, and vice versa.) However, which traits count as distinguishable will vary from community to community. My point with the example of "being 5'6"" not being a defining trait is that that is a very average height - most people are around that height, so they will probably experience very little treatment related specifically to it.

But, people who are very short or very tall most likely do have unique experiences related to being particularly short or tall, and so it would be reasonable for them to define themselves, in part, as being short or tall.

I myself have grown up with very little importance placed on sexuality, receiving very little to no discrimination or differentiation because I am gay. (Arguably, I am all the more fortunate for this.) As a result, I have never felt defined by it.

Other people, however, have had very unfortunate experiences related to being gay, where their community has made a point to differentiate them based on that factor. To them it is perfectly reasonable and understandable that they should then define themselves by their sexuality, for undoubtedly those experiences (particular to their sexual orientation) will have helped define their character.

This is fair and a lot more nuanced than anything I could hope to muster up on a Saturday night. :p
 

Mumei

Member
My personality, maybe? Sorry, but my ethnicity hasn't done anything for my identity. Nothing. My sexual orientation either, but this is a case-specific situation. For example, Mumei mentioned he discovered feminism (which I'm guessing is now a strong view of him) because he's gay. But this is situational and not really inherent.

I think this is precisely the point that gerg was making; the traits that are important to our self-identity are the result of our particular circumstances. And while I know you think that your sexuality hasn't affected who you are, I don't think you can know that none of your traits have affected your personality and who you are; I think your sense of identity is something that is constructed in relation to the world, not something that just "exists" independent of everything else.
 

RM8

Member
I'll be the first to say "man, being gay really changes your perspective on equality and minorities". But is it a gay thing? It's not, you can arrive to the same views/conclusions even not being part of any minority (and I know plenty of people like this) or being part of a completely different minority. As such, they're just different ways of getting to the same place. And I do indeed think our personalities are pretty much reflections of how our brain works, this is pretty well documented as well.

So basically, what I find sexually attractive or how I look like haven't shaped my personality at all. It just feels a ton like patriotism, and I really don't believe in patriotism.

About gerg's post, which I somehow missed :p - It makes a ton of sense. I also have absolutely never been discriminated because of my sexuality, so just like him I've never felt like it's something important.
 
I'll be the first to say "man, being gay really changes your perspective on equality and minorities".

You'd be surprised how common racism and sexism is among gay people. Maybe not as common as among straight people, but it is definitely there.
 

gerg

Member
You'd be surprised how common racism and sexism is among gay people. Maybe not as common as among straight people, but it is definitely there.

Oh, definitely. The amount of girlfriends I know who have been harrassed by gay men in clubs is awful.
 

Miles X

Member
You see this a lot with gay guys. My exboyfriend was really bad about it (and it's deep seeded homophobia) -- valuing the traditionally masculine aspects of life. I have the utmost respect for gay men who feel like they can be themselves while not necessarily adhering to a traditional gender norm.

I'm so sick of the terms "straight acting" as well. If you're gay, be gay! If that means liking showtunes, cool! If it means being the world's biggest Kings fan, awesome! If it means a combination of the two, even better!

What's wrong with straight acting, it basically means you don't act camp and there is nothing wrong with defining yourself that way ... being gay does not mean liking showtunes, it means you find men attractive, end of.

I absolutely loath showtunes I might add!
 
What's wrong with straight acting, it basically means you don't act camp and there is nothing wrong with defining yourself that way ... being gay does not mean liking showtunes, it means you find men attractive, end of.

I absolutely loath showtunes I might add!
Would you say that straight men who act camp are "gay-acting"?
 

Oemenia

Banned
Quick question to Gay-GAF but what do you guys think of the representation of gay people in the media as it seems to be almost always highly-stereotypical. I tend to think that even positive stereotypes can be hurtful in the long-run so would be interested in some responses.
 

Mumei

Member
Interesting point, what's the correct term for a "non-camp" gay male, then?

I don't know that there is a suggested term. "Non-camp" describes a rather large continuum of ways of being, after all.

Nah, there is a huge middle section of gay guys that neither describe themselves as camp or straight acting.

Yep. I think most of us wouldn't really call ourselves "camp" (or "effeminate," I suppose) or "straight-acting."

I always find self-descriptions like that unreliable; I'm sure we all know a guy who calls himself "straight-acting" who must be using a different definition of the phrase than everyone else.
 

LuffyZoro

Member
I think it could only really be called straight-acting if you were forcing yourself to not be camp. Otherwise, like for the (I suspect) majority of gay men, it's just your personality.
 
Quick question to Gay-GAF but what do you guys think of the representation of gay people in the media as it seems to be almost always highly-stereotypical. I tend to think that even positive stereotypes can be hurtful in the long-run so would be interested in some responses.

On one hand, I wish that there were more gay characters on TV who weren't so feminine just because it would be nice to see some diversity and I think it would lead to more acceptance.

On the other hand, it would be awful to send the message that you are a lesser person if you happen to be gay -and- feminine. There's nothing inherently wrong with acting outside of traditional gender roles.
 

Miles X

Member
On one hand, I wish that there were more gay characters on TV who weren't so feminine just because it would be nice to see some diversity and I think it would lead to more acceptance.

On the other hand, it would be awful to send the message that you are a lesser person if you happen to be gay -and- feminine. There's nothing inherently wrong with acting outside of traditional gender roles.

I don't know what the ratio of effeminate to masculine (or even like I said above neither (normal if you like, but I assume most will take offense to that) but I would say there are too many camp gay men on TV and it's not a true depiction of most gay guys.

I would say of all the gay/bi men I've met in my life through dating/boyfriends/work/college/school/friends ect ect, under 2% are camp. I think many have slight tell tell signs though.
 

kirblar

Member
Quick question to Gay-GAF but what do you guys think of the representation of gay people in the media as it seems to be almost always highly-stereotypical. I tend to think that even positive stereotypes can be hurtful in the long-run so would be interested in some responses.
They stand out. The problem is that the opposite polarity blends in, where you wouldn't know unless you asked, so the representation skews to the visible. And that's ok - it's just a reflection of what you "see" rather than what "is."
 

Monocle

Member
Isn't this just an excuse to not give someone a chance? I genuinely don't understand preferences. Hotness is not a checklist for me, someone is either attractive or not. It doesn't matter what color their hair is, what race they are or what their body weight may be. Hot is hot.


This is exactly what I don't understand. Is something wrong with your penis?
What's not to get? Effeminacy is just like any other factor that affects a person's attractiveness. It simply turns off some people. However, being averse to a certain trait doesn't necessarily mean you're hostile to potential exceptions.

Interesting point, what's the correct term for a "non-camp" gay male, then?
There's no single term for the broad field of other categories. It's like asking what's the term for food that's not cheese.
 
Effeminate, masculine, what do those even mean anymore? Can't we get to the point where see people as individuals and not broad stereotypes? I know I'm being super idealistic right now, but hey sometimes we need idealists.
 

RM8

Member
Come on, we don't have to pretend masculine and feminine traits don't exist in order to understand one is not lesser than the other.
 

Miles X

Member
Apparently I have a lot of tell signs. :/

Nout wrong with that, I think it's how you carry yourself that's important.

Come on, we don't have to pretend masculine and feminine traits don't exist in order to understand one is not lesser than the other.

Actually kinda agree with this, I find both unattractive (extremes of course) on one hand you've got super camp men who're screaming banshees and wear tutu's and fairy wings, then you've got macho blokes who proudly expel body gases, chug down beer yelling at the tv watching football and is generally mouthy.

Give me a 'normal' guy any day of the week :p
 
Effeminate, masculine, what do those even mean anymore? Can't we get to the point where see people as individuals and not broad stereotypes? I know I'm being super idealistic right now, but hey sometimes we need idealists.

I don't think we can really ever move into a genderless society. Some traits will always be seen as masculine, and some as feminine. Even though which traits fall under which categories may shift.
 
I don't think we can really ever move into a genderless society. Some traits will always be seen as masculine, and some as feminine. Even though which traits fall under which categories may shift.
I can live with that, also gender stereotypes are different depending on region. Most people where I'm from sees any male who is slightly different as effeminate or possibly gay. It's insane.
 

Monocle

Member
Effeminate, masculine, what do those even mean anymore? Can't we get to the point where see people as individuals and not broad stereotypes? I know I'm being super idealistic right now, but hey sometimes we need idealists.
Effeminate and masculine are two well established categories for gendered traits. Usually, it's intuitively obvious when something fits one or the other type. Bulging muscles -> masculine. High voice -> feminine. And so on.

Social conditioning makes this pretty hard to escape, even if you somehow manage to ignore natural patterns of variation between the sexes.
 

RM8

Member
Masculine and feminine traits are present in pretty much all mammals. Good luck pretending they don't exist. I see no benefit at all from pretending they don't exist in the first place, that's not how acceptance should be achieved - simply re-branding stuff.

Also, about media - I agree that there should be less stereotypical characters. I fail to see how this would send the message that it's wrong to be stereotypically gay, it'll just send the message that there are gay people who fall outside of the stereotype, and it's true.
 
I see you're points, that said I understand that they'll always exist, I guess I'm just more frustrated with my local societies' gender stereotypes, basically it's to the point that if you have a personality you are labeled effeminate.
 

Shahadan

Member
I don't know what the ratio of effeminate to masculine (or even like I said above neither (normal if you like, but I assume most will take offense to that) but I would say there are too many camp gay men on TV and it's not a true depiction of most gay guys.
.

I agree, gays are associated ot queens in the collective mind. Imo it's the worst aspect of the whole problem. I've seen a few gay guys discovering their sexuality and then progressively trying to conform to the public gay image, was it puposedly or not I couldn't tell. In a matter of two years they had become effeminate, wearing pink etc, spouting nonsense like "IT'S WHO I AM".
No it's not doofus.

Very effeminate gays are doing more harm than good to their community by trying to be it even more because it's expected of them and they expect themselves to be so.
 

Akainu

Member
A couple weeks ago, Mark Carson, a 32-year-old gay man dressed in a tank top, cut-off shorts, and boots, was walking with his friend in the West Village when they were approached by Elliot Morales. "Look at you faggots," Morales allegedly said. "You look like gay wrestlers." Morales followed the men down the street shouting anti-gay slurs before fatally shooting Carson at point-blank range just blocks from the Stonewall Inn.
Well damn that escalated quickly.
 

Dany

Banned
I agree, gays are associated ot queens in the collective mind. Imo it's the worst aspect of the whole problem. I've seen a few gay guys discovering their sexuality and then progressively trying to conform to the public gay image, was it puposedly or not I couldn't tell. In a matter of two years they had become effeminate, wearing pink etc, spouting nonsense like "IT'S WHO I AM".
No it's not doofus.

Very effeminate gays are doing more harm than good to their community by trying to be it even more because it's expected of them and they expect themselves to be so.


I've seen this in college and whether or not they are conforming to the public perception of "gay" or are simply being themselves I have no idea. I simply find it curious but I really don't see it as a harming.
 

Ty4on

Member
Masculine and feminine traits are present in pretty much all mammals. Good luck pretending they don't exist. I see no benefit at all from pretending they don't exist in the first place, that's not how acceptance should be achieved - simply re-branding stuff.

Agree. This isn't about accepting A or B, but flat out accepting people for being who they are regardless of who that is.
When it comes to stereotypes I'd love more diverse people (queer* or straight) in the media be more varied. For me it was important growing up to have varied, gay role models.

Every single one of those is a great question which I wonder about from time to time and have no answer for at the moment.

I do wonder though if you are conflating sexual preference with sexual orientation in this case with such a line of questioning.

Pansexual? I personally find sexuality to be a huge mess. I have never been attracted to a woman, but that didn't stop me from doubting I was gay even :p
No matter what/how you are there are other people just like you out there.
 

Village

Member
I agree, gays are associated ot queens in the collective mind. Imo it's the worst aspect of the whole problem. I've seen a few gay guys discovering their sexuality and then progressively trying to conform to the public gay image, was it puposedly or not I couldn't tell. In a matter of two years they had become effeminate, wearing pink etc, spouting nonsense like "IT'S WHO I AM".
No it's not doofus.

Very effeminate gays are doing more harm than good to their community by trying to be it even more because it's expected of them and they expect themselves to be so.

No.

I have been lurking this thread for a bit, but this is something i have to put my two cents in. You wanna know what does harm to a community people who judge.

Yes people should be themselves, but if that is who they are, you nor anyone has a right tell them no its not.

My experience isn't with homosexuality its my race(s), so I cannot chime in on the intricacies of that community, but this is similar to people saying that those who do not act "white" or those who act "black" are doing more harm than good. What does harm is people who judge those for being who they are, them acting however they want to act is fine as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
 

Shahadan

Member
No.

I have been lurking this thread for a bit, but this is something i have to put my two cents in. You wanna know what does harm to a community people who judge.

Yes people should be themselves, but if that is who they are, you nor anyone has a right tell them no its not.

My experience isn't with homosexuality its my race(s), so I cannot chime in on the intricacies of that community, but this is similar to people saying that those who do not act "white" or those who act "black" are doing more harm than good. What does harm is people who judge those for being who they are, them acting however they want to act is fine as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

My point is, some are acting gay and that's not "who they are'. Your sexuality doesn't define your personnality, nor the way you walk, talk, I'm sorry. This shit needs to die.
When I was a kid I had a neighbour, same age as me. It was the most effeminate guy I've ever known. Never judged him. He was always like that.
My problem is elsewhere. And seriously, what you can see of the gay community when you're straight certainly does not do it any good. To many straight guys, gay people just look like fucking circus freaks and certainly not normal people. Again, media is also responsible for that.

Hate crimes are partly born from that too.
 

Village

Member
My point is, some are acting gay and that's not "who they are'. Your sexuality doesn't define your personnality, nor the way you walk, talk, I'm sorry. This shit needs to die.
When I was a kid I had a neighbour, same age as me. It was the most effeminate guy I've ever known. Never judged him. He was always like that.
My problem is elsewhere. And seriously, what you can see of the gay community when you're straight certainly does not do it any good. To many straight guys, gay people just look like fucking circus freaks and certainly not normal people. Again, media is also responsible for that.

Hate crimes are partly born from that too.

Or we can let people act they way they wish to act, you can advise them sure. But accept how they wish to act, and get with it or get gone.

That is.... well life.
 

Rayis

Member
This is basically my huge issue with some gay people, and it has nothing to do with sexual orientation but more with gender expression, like they say, being homosexual doesn't automatically mean femininity but let's not pretend like some gay men and women don't exhibit behaviors typically associated with the opposite gender, and a huge pet peeve of mine is when the gay community says they're not "stereotypical" as if it was a bad thing in the first place. I'd call myself very feminine, I have never felt comfortable acting "masculine" because it's so far removed from who I am as a person, so much so that pretty much when I get called "woman" or "girl" derogatorily I take it as a compliment, and I also never call myself a man, I call myself a person instead and use gender neutral words, I've no problems being called a he, or a man by others but I don't consider myself one, at least not society's definition of what a man should be. ( I sometimes think that I might be trans instead of gay but for now I've no plans of transitioning )
 

RM8

Member
^ To be fair, plenty of straight people can exhibit behaviors typically associated with the opposite gender :p And I don't see the harm in saying "I'm not a stereotypical ________", when you're just trying to describe yourself.
 
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