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What About the Guys Who Do Fit the 'Gay Stereotype'?
- Thread starter Mumei
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PlanetSmasher
Banned
As an actor living in Chicago with rather close ties to the musical theatre community, I know a whole lot of gay men and women. While I certainly know plenty of gay people who "fit the stereotype", I know just as many people (both male and female) whose sexualities are completely undetectable until they mention their significant others.
Maybe by virtue of the community I'm a part of I get a slightly better view of what "real gays" are like versus the common stereotype, but hopefully that stereotype will fade over time as public perception calms down.
I know I've had people occasionally say some of my mannerisms seem a bit feminine, but that could just come down to the fact that I'm a very skinny guy who tends to talk with his hands.
Maybe by virtue of the community I'm a part of I get a slightly better view of what "real gays" are like versus the common stereotype, but hopefully that stereotype will fade over time as public perception calms down.
^ To be fair, plenty of straight people can exhibit behaviors typically associated with the opposite genderAnd I don't see the harm in saying "I'm not a stereotypical ________", when you're just trying to describe yourself.
I know I've had people occasionally say some of my mannerisms seem a bit feminine, but that could just come down to the fact that I'm a very skinny guy who tends to talk with his hands.
^ To be fair, plenty of straight people can exhibit behaviors typically associated with the opposite gender
Yeah I agree, that's why I said it was gender expression and not sexual orientation, heterosexuals definitely exhibit gender atypical behavior as well (with the very well known double standard of tomboys being more widely accepted than feminine straight men) there's nothing wrong with people saying they're not stereotypical to describe themselves, only when it comes with a distasteful attitude towards those who are.
Of course. Problem is, you shouldn't fuel the hate. I believe minorities must support their own cause, not to themselves a disservice. Some people that are LGBT rights activists are also complaining about that.
Again, no problem with effeminate guys. Some are even straight. The problem is with a large part of the community acting even "worse" than effeminate guys to confrom to an image they think represents what they are. But it's like that with everything, clichés are born and fueled from that.
I'll tell you why I'm thinking like that. When I was 21 I met a guy and had a relationship with him. Until then I was dating only girls and am still attracted to them. Up to that point I never understood the hate of gay people.
From there for many people around me and people I met, I was gay, I couldn't be something else! I had many comments about how I don't look like a gay guy and that it was weird. I got gay jokes. I got friends giving me the cold shoulder because they couldn't think of me any way else than dancing half naked in gay bars wearing strings.
I got punched for that same reason, people associated me to that even though I didn't conform to their vision of gay people (or because of it).
It was a nightmare. I was a victim of something other people were doing. Straight guys and girls confused who I were and what they expected me to be. Some told me they didn't know "normal" gays existed.
Dafuq.
Of course ultimately the fault resides in people judging and hating. But some just don't know anything else. It's also why "normal" public gay guys are reluctant to come out.
Case in point, actor Matt Bomer. Recently came out (discretly) and being the target of people saying he shouldn't play straight guys in movies because they can't believe it . See the Christian Grey story with him.
I can see what you are saying, but at the end of the day.
They aren't fueling hate.
The people who hate are fueling hate.
Instead of teaching people who to act different teach people how to hate less.
I'm just saying people would hate less if they were seeing more gays acting like human beings and not circus freaks. And it would be easier than to educate people not to hate.
In the end I don't know anymore whose fault it is.
I've had recently an interesting discussion with an arab guy telling me he started to resent other arab guys because they were so many conforming to the stealing treacherous arab guy type.
I guess it's similar when I see people posting in crime threads "please don't be black please don't be black...fuck"
That is the issue, why are the circus freaks, people should be able to be who they are. If you don't like them, whatever hang out with different people.
And yes I know of both of things you are talking about, however your friend shouldnt resent ofther Arabic people because they act a certain way, he should resent them if they are acting like an asshole.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I don't think there's anything wrong with being turned off or annoyed by behavior/personality traits, such as an excessively flamboyant person: be it a "stereotypical" gay man or a "dudebro" straight meathead. A person can find someone's behavior to be a giant turn off without being bigoted, IE treating people equally even if you don't like their personality.
Oh I agree, that's what I told him, but in the end we agreed that it can become a somewhat natural reaction the more you are exposed to that.
Some people become progressively racist that way.
chronos4590
Member
Great article Mumei, You always bring great finds on social perspectives .
It's not even questionable that homophobia and sexism are hand in hand. It obviously not only shows how we think about masculinity as a concept in our society, but also of course shows how we see characteristics that are attached to women as feminine are seen.But of course the question is, even if someone is the stereotype of being feminine, why is that viewed as a bad thing? Of course we know why that is considered that way due to the way gender norms in this society is, it still isn't right that we treat anyone lesser.
Being gay myself i don't see myself as feminine nor truly masculine either, and I don't feel the need to attach masculinity to myself in order to feel any more than or to be sure not to fit in the stereotype. Gender especially gender expression being a social construct means to me that i don't need to fit in either category nor does anyone who does fit into one, especially one considered feminine should feel fine and free from being ostracized. Even saying " I don't fit the gay stereotype" while intentions are not bad ones, still is pretty "peculiar" in itself. For many people it may not seem so, but some of us gay people are just as guilty in regards to trying to be masculine to not be the "others" ala ( "I'm like this but i'm not one of those kind/Like that")
Showing that gay people can be masculine or feminine or any spectrum in between sadly will not change these concepts of gender norms. Sexism and taking down concepts of what is expected of a specific gender is going to truly help us fit into society and not for only gays and lesbians, but also women as well and to an extent men too(because straight men can be somewhat feminine to some peoples eyes as well).
Taking down these concepts and sexism will do so much more for everyone. Something That just announcing being gay or countries or states passing marriage laws will ever truly accomplish. Education all around and having that education reflect onto society will bring great change. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Edit:
. It's not even questionable that homophobia and sexism are hand in hand. It obviously not only shows how we think about masculinity as a concept in our society, but also of course shows how we see characteristics that are attached to women as feminine are seen.But of course the question is, even if someone is the stereotype of being feminine, why is that viewed as a bad thing? Of course we know why that is considered that way due to the way gender norms in this society is, it still isn't right that we treat anyone lesser.
Being gay myself i don't see myself as feminine nor truly masculine either, and I don't feel the need to attach masculinity to myself in order to feel any more than or to be sure not to fit in the stereotype. Gender especially gender expression being a social construct means to me that i don't need to fit in either category nor does anyone who does fit into one, especially one considered feminine should feel fine and free from being ostracized. Even saying " I don't fit the gay stereotype" while intentions are not bad ones, still is pretty "peculiar" in itself. For many people it may not seem so, but some of us gay people are just as guilty in regards to trying to be masculine to not be the "others" ala ( "I'm like this but i'm not one of those kind/Like that")
Showing that gay people can be masculine or feminine or any spectrum in between sadly will not change these concepts of gender norms. Sexism and taking down concepts of what is expected of a specific gender is going to truly help us fit into society and not for only gays and lesbians, but also women as well and to an extent men too(because straight men can be somewhat feminine to some peoples eyes as well).
Taking down these concepts and sexism will do so much more for everyone. Something That just announcing being gay or countries or states passing marriage laws will ever truly accomplish. Education all around and having that education reflect onto society will bring great change. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Edit:
While being gay does give a different perspective i would've never had being straight(at least generally speaking) The perspective on others equality and other minorities is so different, i don't think people truly understand. People like to compare getting rid of homophobia to getting rid of racism. They're vastly different struggles, that some people like being black and gay experience both ends, but is not a type of hatred that can nor should be put next to each other to see how they equal out. Cause like others said, there is nothing more "interesting" than our fellow gays being just as racist as anyone else. its really sad.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
Specific groups of people annoy me, and the trends, actions and appearence tied to those groups of people also annoy me. As a gay male, I hate, hate, overly effeminate and flamboyant men, straight or gay. I hate these people as much as I hate hipsters and jocks. The problem is that for some reason we're not allowed to hate specific groups of people anymore, and fuck that. If you're acting like someone who has been hit in the head with a shovel, I will treat you appropriately, if you don't know how to use a belt, then why do you deserve my attention and appreciation of your lifestyle or culture.
People use the race card, the sexism card, the ____ card for whatever suits, them, well fuck that, you don't deserve to drag these various groups through the mud because it lets you be an annoying prick, and this happens way too often. I'm tolerent of you, I am not tolerent of your behaviour and your representation of the culture, subculture, sexuality or ethnicitiy.
People use the race card, the sexism card, the ____ card for whatever suits, them, well fuck that, you don't deserve to drag these various groups through the mud because it lets you be an annoying prick, and this happens way too often. I'm tolerent of you, I am not tolerent of your behaviour and your representation of the culture, subculture, sexuality or ethnicitiy.
There is nothing wrong with the way very camp people act, an it's their life, they have every right to act that way.
However. It does give the haters fuel. Should they stop because of this? no, like I said their life. Don't bury your head in the sand though, if all gays were masculine/normal blah blah then there would be far less ignorant homophobia around today. Can't really say same for religious homophobia tho I guess.
One thing you can take a pot shot at though is pride, streets littered with gay guys getting drunk and shagging anything in site. Does terrible things for our image and THAT is what gays become associated with, hate Pride these days with a passion. It used to have a purpose and a very important one, now it's just a gang bang piss up.
The thing I do hate about many of the flamboyant gays is that it often goes hand in hand with narcissistic, smug, diva attitude... and this is what I find repulsive, not effeminacy itself. It's like the 'bro' behaviour of the gay world where dudes are hyperbitchy instead of macho.
I more find the homophobia within the community itself more disturbing. We should all stick together tbh
I have no words for this mess
I have no words for this mess
I will be fair and give you that, its a very good point.
Let me show you my version.
That tv station is the very essence of counter productivity
What you describe... not so much.
You're 'allowed' to hate specific groups of people, but others can judge you for that. It is perfectly reasonable to judge someone for "hating" a specific group of people because of their inherent traits as a human being.
Agreed. Certain personality traits are annoying. The extra loud 'everyone look at me!' behavior is annoying no matter who it's coming from. I find women who want every person in the room to look at them and will dress and behave in a way that gets them that attention to be equally irritating.
It's a good thing straight people never act like crazy circus freaks, as someone else mentioned, amirite? What's your opinion of Mardi Gras?
Vermillion
Banned
Something about cognitive misers. We don't like using more mental power than we have to, so we resort to stereotypes... basically, it makes it easier for us. Furthermore, it makes it easier to have a "normal" type of person, because we've generally learned to communicate with them better.
More simply - we're lazy.
chronos4590
Member
Exactly. I hate it when people mostly straight people say things like our pride is too outrageous or wild. Or the way we are is " this" way. It's not different than the many carnivals, parades and any other human behavior in celebration and pride as anyone else. At least here in the US before we gays had our pride parades and other demonstrations of self and community pride, straight people have been doing crazy and revealing things long before. Like you said mardi gras, one can say events like Woodstock or cochlea and of course go to a beach and look around.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
So err... What if you're just yourself? I don't fit the gay stereotype but I also don't fit the MACHO ALPHA DERP DERP shit. I usually say "That's fucking stupid" When someone says what a "Real man" is
captainnapalm
Member
Interesting, I didn't know these guys were disliked by some gay people. As a straight guy, I've always found flamboyant men to be entertaining. They tend to be very larger than life. The worse thing you can be imo is boring, and they're seldom boring.
Why worry about striving for some androgynous, genderless median. Let people be who they are. I don't think it's the same as hipsters and jocks, which you likened it to. Those are just affected, consciously-chosen cultural roles, not fundamental personality traits.
You're a stereotype because you just are. Everyone is.
I think there's a difference between personal distaste and the asinine argument that a) especially effeminate men are being inauthentic, b) that they are not acting like human beings, c) arguing that it is partly the fault of effeminate gays for behaving like... effeminate gays that we have problems with hatred, and not the fact that we have millennia old cultural injunction against men. Some gay people aren't "just normal people," and blaming them for bigotry they have to face in far greater proportion than stereotypical masculine gay men is absurd.
CornBurrito
Member
I'm sorry, but I'm boring and proud of it. I was born this way.
captainnapalm
Member
You're probably not boring. Boring people think they're interesting.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
omg :C
oh well
You should come to my state and check out more than a few of our gyms. Its most definitely there and the last time I had a boyfriend he still hated white people because of bondage they put us in. I wouldn't say he was sexist per se but he did believe woman shouldn't do certain things with man due to our bodies sizes and differences and I have a little of that as well in me(don't kill me people its not something easily gotten rid of).
Well pride is the main factor that is very hard to combat even if you take therapy. I have pride in alot of things as well(that I won't mention) that are hard to give up.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm not blaming them for anything, just pointing out I understand why their behavior might be a turnoff to other people. There are plenty of straight behaviors/personalities that many people find annoying, from the "valley girl" persona to dudebros, as I mentioned earlier. Masculinity expectations certainly play a role, ie the general idea that a man shouldn't act one way. I don't feel I'm attacking or looking down on people if, for instance, I believe Earvin III Johnson looks ridiculous - nor do I think that has anything to do with masculinity expectations/rules.
Ultimately the important point is that no one should be discriminated against or treated differently, even if you don't like their behavior.
It seems like there's a signalling mechanism component to some of the behaviors that are "learned" rather than grounded in personal expression, but its hard to tell with an individual where one ends and the other begins.
I fucking hate this. This is literally a total mood killer for me, when people around me start talking about this. It's so damn annoying.
Pride sucks, sorry. Are all carnivals wild and crazy? Yes, but other carnivals are not the main event related to a minority that struggles with equality and ignorance. As a social movement it's probably even harmful, and again, we're not all represented by carnival-like events. You don't educate people about homosexuality with a loud and silly parade that hardly represents most gay people in the first place.
I didn't think you were!
I agree with this. I think a good example of the difficulty of judging where one ends and another begins is with the stereotypical gay man who comes out and suddenly starts acting ~fabulous~. Is he taking on an exaggerated persona after coming out and he'll mellow out? Is he finally being authentically himself? Is this something he picked up on from gay friends and he's just unconsciously adopting some of the social norms from his immediate peer group? I think it could be some of all of these in that hypothetical person's case.
Pride is more than the parade, you know. Have you ever been to one?
i find the homophobia within the community to be some of the most interesting. i think some of you have been discussing it, but it's interesting to me. It has recently become more and more obvious to me in a lot of situations. it's especially prevalent in young gay men who have just recently come out or are trying to come out. i think it tends to fade a bit after some years, but a lot of it still seems to come out of a lack of identity and a fear of being associated with the stereotype.
sure, there's a ton of reasons why this occurs but it's interesting to watch nonetheless. i'm curious how much of people's preference is driven by this and other perceived cultural and social norms? I know this has been observed in women and the way they can really turn against one another in a lot of situations, where they're seen as almost reprojecting the societal prejudice towards them onto each other.
sure, there's a ton of reasons why this occurs but it's interesting to watch nonetheless. i'm curious how much of people's preference is driven by this and other perceived cultural and social norms? I know this has been observed in women and the way they can really turn against one another in a lot of situations, where they're seen as almost reprojecting the societal prejudice towards them onto each other.
10 years ago i might have agreed with you, but now having been to a few, most of the people going to the parades and such aren't gay. They're people celebrating gay people. In the parades here in Seattle, there's an incredibly diverse selection of people. Huge companies make appearances with their gay employees. Starbucks, Boeing, Microsoft, Google, Chase, etc. Politicians, gay geeks, animal shelters, etc. Straight families come and watch them.
I would argue that this very observation and the fact that it keeps on diversifying and bringing more groups into it is fairly decent evidence that your last sentence is false. It has grown into much more than just a gay rights thing, but a celebration of diversity for all people.
I remember watching a television clip in europe one time, and there was some straight elderly lady (late 80s early 90s?) that had come out to watch one of the parades. They'd asked her why she was there and she just thought the whole experience was pretty amazing to witness and it was such a positive thing.
Circle Jerk
Member
So basically gays are responsible for the hate crimes against them. If they just stopped acting so faggy the media and straights would leave them alone and everyone would be happy!!
les papillons sexuels
Banned
But this is part of the problem. I think it's completely fair for people to hate the effeminate personalities that people have developed, just like there are many people who hate the gang culture. There are a lot of examples of black-gang culture being hated by the black community.
It's one thing to hate these people because of their sexuality, it's another to hate these people for the same reasons you may hate anyone else who has a personality which annoys you. I hate teenagers who act recklessly and women who like to slut it up. To me there's a difference between the subculture of effeminate male behaviour and i dont appreciate them using homosexuality as a means for them to be annoying. Just like I'm sure there are a lot of feminists who don't like seeing the feminist movement being used and abused by attention grabbing and man hating women.
Nope
Most people in the world haven't been to one. I don't want to excuse my ignorance, but I think I'm actually an example of how these might not be very effective in educating people about homosexuality.You know, that's kind of the part where I don't agree completely. The "gay rights" thing should be way more important than the celebration part.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
Maybe because the gang culture is violent... When I start getting attacked by fem queens on the boulevard, I'll start hating them too.
uhhhh what the fuck?
kitchenmotors
Banned
I have no words. Let me go drown myself in the creek.
Why would that be horrible?
I think he's trying to say that there are many homophobic parents that would be mortified to find out that their child's hero is gay.
But since the overwhelming majority of gay athletes haven't come out, their child may already be idolizing someone who is gay without them (both the parents and the child) realizing it.
A lot of people are gonna have to come to terms with the fact that gay people exist and that they're not going away [and that's a good thing IMO].
PhoenixDark
Banned
He's not referring to actual gang members, or the culture of violence - he's referring to the hyper masculine "thug" persona that dominates some areas of urban culture. Being willfully ignorant, having a disdain for education, disrespecting women, overly aggressive, etc. And as a black man I despise that culture and find it to be damaging, but that's my personal opinion.
That was actually a thing in D.C.
Yep. It's a really wonderful thing to experience; even the Parade itself is diverse. It isn't just leather daddies and the Dykes on Bikes contingents; there's PFLAG and the little old men and ladies gays, and GSA groups and local youth gay organizations and plenty of "normal" gay and straight supporters.
Nope
You know, that's kind of the part where I don't agree completely. The "gay rights" thing should be way more important than the celebration part.
I agree that gay rights is really important, but the sense of feeling welcome in one's community by tens of thousands of people really can't be underestimated. And if there is one in your area, try going. You might enjoy it!
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