• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

What creator/writer ruined the lore of their property overtime the most?

Kingdom Hearts:
"Hey. Here is some story about some kids and heartless. Pretty straightforward."

Kingdom Hearts 2 and everything after that:
"Well. Everyone has a nobody. And Ansem is a nobody of Xehanort? Or is he? But Xehanort might also have a heartless and a fake one. Here is an organization that somehow works for him or not?! Lets add time travel to the story!"

I didnt understand anything.

Kingdom_Hearts_Character_chart_5857.png


XehanortsMasterplan.jpg
 
I don't know if it was the most, but Whedon Buffy S8 comics was up there for me, showing that the creator didn't get what made their universe so great, ruined it from a "This is clearly well thought out" angle...
 

Glass Rebel

Member
It's obviously the dark Knight. Not even a contest. And i don't even think 3 was that bad. It was Just ridiculous.

Lucas i feel that he had his heart in the right place. The prequels got a bad rep because they tried to introduce new things to shape the universe better and not because they were actively bad movies (even though the second one is unbelievably bad) as show by ep 7, which is godawful and everybody likes it.

He tried to do new stuff for a fanbase that wanted none of it. I appreciate that. I don't feel that New stuff destroyed the lore either.

Ep 7 isn't godawful by any stretch of the imagination. At the very least it is competently acted and written and is a functional story with clear character motivations and arcs.
 

Kid Ying

Member
Whaaaaat. No, it's precisely because they're bad movies and a lot of their world building is lame that the Prequels are rightly despised.

TFA isn't "godawful" any way you slice it. Even if you're one of those ridiculous people who claim it's a remake of ANH in spite of the totally different characters, arcs, narrative, and dramatic beats, it's still a damn good movie. Well made, well acted, well written, well paced, well designed.
Funny that you mention it, cause i didn't notice how similar the movies were while watching it. It wasn't till some friends of mine said the similarities to me that i actully perceived them.

Still, we can agree to disagree. I think the new characters are horrible and the story felt like fanfiction most of the time, with little reason for everything to happen. It didn't mess with the lore, but it certainly diminished what the other characters accomplished in the original trilogy. It Just felt like a cynical cash grab, with an overrealiance on the original trilogy to guarantee people would watch it.

I'm a fan, so i was happy to see those characters again, but that was about it. I marathoned the whole series before watching ep 7 and although i think it's better than ep 1 and 2 (which does that just by being a movie that works) it doesn't hold a candle to ep 3. The movie actually made me retroactively like the prequels more, because they were quite bold.
 

Famassu

Member
Kingdom Hearts:
"Hey. Here is some story about some kids and heartless. Pretty straightforward."

Kingdom Hearts 2 and everything after that:
"Well. Everyone has a nobody. And Ansem is a nobody of Xehanort? Or is he? But Xehanort might also have a heartless and a fake one. Here is an organization that somehow works for him or not?! Lets add time travel to the story!"

I didnt understand anything.
The concept of Heartless & Nobodies isn't that hard to understand. KH1 introduces the "Heartless", which are what basically happens to the "spirit" of the person when they are devoured by the darkness (hearts are kind of handled like it's a physical thing combined with a spirit-like "the person's identity, hopes & dreams are stored within" thing). Heartless are kind of like zombies in the sense that they'll then start mindlessly hunting for people who still have their hearts intact. Because Heartless are kind of the darkness-consumed version of the spirit of a person, that leaves behind an empty body and those are called Nobodies. Basically when a person in the KH universe is killed by these dark creatures, it separates the body & the mind/spirit and what is left behind is an evil spirit (the Heartless) and an empty body (the Nobody) that can both showcase personalities & forms of strong-willed/spirited people (Xemnas & the Org XIII members), but can be a generic one for normal people (all the generic Heartless & Nobodies in the games). There are a few special cases in the games but only a few and they are introduced pretty slowly into the franchise (like, character or two per game) and they kind of fit the lore without too much bullshittery & retconning.

Ansem is the Heartless of Xehanort and Xemnas is the Nobody of Xehanort. Basically the same person, just different forms of him. There is no "fake" Xehanort. Xehanort does succeed in possessing someone earlier on in the timeline, since he's starting to get old and wants a young, strong body for himself so that he can continue working on his plans. Again, not that horrible or hard-to-understand a concept in itself, even if the writing overall in the KH series leaves a lot to be desired.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Ridley Scott is the only answer, even if Georges Lucas is close second.

Special mention to Bleach author after Soul Society arc, and Naruto author after the time skip.
 
The concept of Heartless & Nobodies isn't that hard to understand. KH1 introduces the "Heartless", which are what basically happens to the "spirit" of the person when they are devoured by the darkness (hearts are kind of handled like it's a physical thing combined with a spirit-like "the person's identity, hopes & dreams are stored within" thing). Heartless are kind of like zombies in the sense that they'll then start mindlessly hunting for people who still have their hearts intact. Because Heartless are kind of the darkness-consumed version of the spirit of a person, that leaves behind an empty body and those are called Nobodies. Basically when a person in the KH universe is killed by these dark creatures, it separates the body & the mind/spirit and what is left behind is an evil spirit (the Heartless) and an empty body (the Nobody) that can both showcase personalities & forms of strong-willed/spirited people (Xemnas & the Org XIII members), but can be a generic one for normal people (all the generic Heartless & Nobodies in the games). There are a few special cases in the games but only a few and they are introduced pretty slowly into the franchise (like, character or two per game) and they kind of fit the lore without too much bullshittery & retconning.

Ansem is the Heartless of Xehanort and Xemnas is the Nobody of Xehanort. Basically the same person, just different forms of him. There is no "fake" Xehanort. Xehanort does succeed in possessing someone earlier on in the timeline, since he's starting to get old and wants a young, strong body for himself so that he can continue working on his plans. Again, not that horrible or hard-to-understand a concept in itself, even if the writing overall in the KH series leaves a lot to be desired.

I don't think you realize how ridiculous and complicated this all sounds.

I mean the second game opens with some kind of matrix like plot where the main character was sleeping for two years in a computer version of the real world, and you haven't begun to address anything else. As the kids would say, erhem, This shit is whack.
 
Definitely Ridley Scott.

Lucas actually had good stories... his personal execution of them was off the mark, but the stories themselves and lore was largely fine and good.

Although what Disney / Lucasfilm did with the Star Wars lore for Episode VII was atrocious. The main characters basically did fuck-all of import for 30 years. Luke ran away to cry on an island, Solo's character did shit all and decided to run around smuggling again. Like, the EU (especially the comics) had some ridiculous shit in them, but at least the universe evolved and achieved something in that massive amount of time.

Granted we know nothing about the state of the universe at Ep 7's point in time other than the First Order exists... somewhere. Why? Because no-one actually wrote backstory for that shit or thought about it. (There are books now though that largely aren't very good and try to generalise the waste of time). Abrams / Kasadans script was good (lol, no it wasn't) for a movie, but not for the universe in general. It reads like a cash-grab with little thought too it.
 

Faddy

Banned
How has GRRM ruined ASOIAF's lore? You might not have liked some of the storylines of some characters in the last couple of books but the lore/world-building is still unarguably excellent (note: I haven't seen the last 2 seasons of the tv show so I'm not sure if there have been some revelations there that also apply to the books that ruins aspects of them as well).

GRRM has ruined some of the lore in ASOIAF although there was a lot of stupid stuff originally too like family lineages of thousands of years (yet few cousins) the height of the wall.

But with Lore the "ruined" stuff mostly comes from his World Book which is far from being original is full of lovecraft rip offs or badly transposed historical cultures. The whole continent of Essos has become a bad cut and paste job. The line has become blurred between his original work and genre nonsense. It wouldn't be a stretch if Euron Greyjoy summoned some great Cthulu like beast from the deep.

It isn't all bad, Mainland Westeros is fine and the Targaryen history, Andal history and Rhoynar history were decently thought out. However the lore of Iron Islands and Essos are bad because they were built on cheap rip offs. They were never created with the intent of supporting a main story but as it progresses all we are getting is more Essos, more Greyjoys and you can really see the cracks in the foundational lore of those places as more weight is placed on them.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
The thing about ruining Warcraft lore is..it was always complete trash. Metzen is and always was a horrible writer.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Midichlorians gets a bad rep ... they are by far the most nothing of the changes =P

My vote goes to Ridley Scott and Alien

It's a big change.

Makes force usability something genetic, not something you have to believe in, mysterious, ambiguous.
 

JAGMASK

Member
Whoever was in charge of silent hill post 4. Just shoving pyramid head and other iconic monsters into every sequel for no other reason than fan service. The series lost its disturbing nature way before konami killed it off. Shame about PT though.
 

Makai

Member
Nah. It's still good. Batshit crazy, but enjoyable.

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but I'm curious where you think it started to go wrong.

And as for the topic at hand, it's hard to not say Simpsons, seeing as how it's become an undead monstrosity.
Stands are bullshit.
 

Famassu

Member
I don't think you realize how ridiculous and complicated this all sounds.
I mean the second game opens with some kind of matrix like plot where the main character was sleeping for two years in a computer version of the real world, and you haven't begun to address anything else. As the kids would say, erhem, This shit is whack.
Well, yes, overall there are some whacky shit in KH. My point was that the ideas of Heartless & Nobodies are not complicated nor do they, as concepts, ruin the established lore of KH, which is what the post I was answering was claiming. Think of it crazy (and it kinda is, but there's nothing wrong with crazy ideas like KH's), but complicated it isn't. At all. Plenty of other fantastical fiction where people lose their souls and leave behind empty husks of bodies that might still maintain some level of functionality. Nobodies are really just a fairly natural continuation from the existence of the Heartless. Like, if we accept that a fantastical, cartoony universe like the one in KH1 exists in the game and that it has the Heartless, which are poltergeist-like entities created by darkness consuming people, we can ask what happens to the empty bodies left behind, then? Not a bad or illogical question to ask or explore in a story, really. Not saying KH does the exploring well, but all in all on an idea level KH can be quite fun if you don't let a bit of crazy ruin your fun. The existence of Heartless is already crazy, that there is also a body left behind is crazy too but kind of logical continuation of the Heartless concept.

And Kingdom Hearts with all its ideas makes a lot more sense (in a way) after you acknowledge how much Disney properties affect & are mirrored in a lot of KH concepts. You say KHII's beginning is some "crazy Matrix shit", but KHII also has a Tron world. So if the universe of KH can have a world inside a computer with Tron, it can have that outside of Tron as well. Similarly Pinoccio is a puppet who grows a heart, so why can't other empty husks grow hearts as well? The concepts are very Disney-like. Like, a lot of Disney Movies have crazy storylines ("some people in the world can turn humans into monstrous animals who then have limited time to learn to be better people before the last flower petal falls out of a rose and they have to remain forever a beast" is an insane concept, Pinoccio basically sounds like KH with its puppet that grows a consience and becomes a real boy). KH just kind of mixes & matches many of those concepts in small & big parts into a single continuous story, so it gets a bit busy. It's the execution that mostly falters, but on an idea level KH isn't as incomprehensible as you people claim. Crazy yes but a bit of crazy in a story never killed anyone.

But yeah, how is "body succumbs to darkness, creates an evil spirit and leaves behind an empty body" complicated?
 

SOLDIER

Member
Kubo Tite - BLEACH.

Theres a whole arc that is our hero having lost his powers, being tought to harness(bring back) his powers only to have said powers stolen by the guys teaching him to get his powers back.....then his friends come back for no apparent reason and give him his powers back.
End arc.


Then of course there is the final arc where he seriously just gave up everything.

Kubo gave up waaaaaaaay before the final arc.

There was a point where he admitted on record that anytime he had writer's block, he would get around it by introducing more characters and powers.

It really puts things in perspective when the second half of Hueco Mundo suddenly dumps a billion more good guys and bad guys on you.

Also, Chad. I will never, ever forgive him for Chad.

It takes significant skill to create a character that cool and utterly, completely squander his potential. It's almost worse than General Grievous.
 

Forkball

Member
Wachowskis and The Matrix.

First movie: The world we live in a computer simulation. There is a brief backstory about how this all came to be and while people like to poke holes in the logic of robots using humans for energy, it tells a compelling story of humanity's fight to be individuals.

The Animatrix: Most of these are side stories in the world of The Matrix, but The Second Renaissance details how the war with machines came to be. Turns out humans are just huge jerks who were basically asking for it. This is the start of wondering if the Wachowskis knew what they were doing.

Reloaded: Good God, there are so many characters and concepts introduced, none of which actually contributes to anything. I do think the idea that there have been multiple matrices is interesting, but it is explained in the most absurd ways. What should be a shocking twist is one of the most confusing scenes in the trilogy.

Revolutions: Neo goes to the machine city and talks to a giant face. There is a Matrix within the Matrix maybe. Neo has a DBZ battle with Smith. In the end everyone is aware of the Matrix, and can choose to leave. Or something. How did we get to this point?
 
The Borg. The second they introduced a Queen, it was all over.

I like to pretend that stuff never happened but I know it did :(.

The Animatrix: Most of these are side stories in the world of The Matrix, but The Second Renaissance details how the war with machines came to be. Turns out humans are just huge jerks who were basically asking for it. This is the start of wondering if the Wachowskis knew what they were doing.

I thought that that animated short that detailed the war and such was actually really well done. Every other piece of media other than that and the first film though? Yeah...
 

Forkball

Member
I thought that that animated short that detailed the war and such was actually really well done. Every other piece of media other than that and the first film though? Yeah...
I agree that it is very well made and well told... but it kills a lot of empathy you have for the humans. AKA the heroes of your movie. AKA us. The characters in the trilogy also never learn of the real origins of the war, so it's not like they do anything interesting with it.

But man... how did the producers let this franchise go so off the rails with those last two movies? People always say no one challenged Lucas during the prequels, but it's like no one even looked at the Wachowskis' scripts.
 
I disagree that Lucas ruined his lore. Although they were bad movies, they still expanded the universe largely in a way that a lot of people reacted positively too. Of course, there were some slip-ups like with midi-chlorians and what not, but those largely get ignored.

I'd say Ridley Scott is the biggest offender. Kojima, too; MGS4-onward muddled the story so much.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Definitely Ridley Scott.

Lucas actually had good stories... his personal execution of them was off the mark, but the stories themselves and lore was largely fine and good.

Although what Disney / Lucasfilm did with the Star Wars lore for Episode VII was atrocious. The main characters basically did fuck-all of import for 30 years. Luke ran away to cry on an island, Solo's character did shit all and decided to run around smuggling again. Like, the EU (especially the comics) had some ridiculous shit in them, but at least the universe evolved and achieved something in that massive amount of time.

Granted we know nothing about the state of the universe at Ep 7's point in time other than the First Order exists... somewhere. Why? Because no-one actually wrote backstory for that shit or thought about it. (There are books now though that largely aren't very good and try to generalise the waste of time). Abrams / Kasadans script was good (lol, no it wasn't) for a movie, but not for the universe in general. It reads like a cash-grab with little thought too it.
I'm not sure if that counts as lore, but yeah... this is my biggest gripe with TFA.
 

finowns

Member
Aye, they weren't entirely necessary, but they weren't as stupid as folks make them out to be. They were just a translation mechanism to bridge the gap between the sci-fi and fantasy aspects of Star Wars, little Microbes that translated space magic into things your cells could do (shoot lightning, see the future, etc).

No they were stupid. It's not necessary to explain the force that's why all those monks study it all day and finally the great truth that anyone can understand midichlorians...
 

Dreavus

Member
I'm tempted to say "the Blazblue storyline" but it is incomprehensible from minute one, so that doesn't really count, lol.

Maybe Assassin's creed? The stuff with Desmond in AC1 was intriguing and I really loved the "conversation" he has with Minerva at the end of ACII. But after that, they just replayed that same storybeat 2-3 more times (talk to an ancient being and have him/her/it make no sense) before tossing Desmond and basically scrapping the whole thing and going the cheeky game dev route with AC4 - which was fun, but for different reasons that were unrelated.

Haven't played beyond that so I have no idea what they do with the newer games.
 

B.K.

Member
It's a big change.

Makes force usability something genetic, not something you have to believe in, mysterious, ambiguous.

Force sensitivity was always genetic, even in the Original Trilogy.

Leia: Luke, don't talk that way! You have a power I don't understand and could never have.

Luke: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... My sister has it. Yes. It's you, Leia.

I don't really think the lore was ruined with the Prequel Trilogy. People were just upset if wasn't what they had built up in their minds for 20 years.

Oh, I have an honorable mention. Masato Kato and the Chrono Series.

This. Chrono Cross was so bad it retroactively made Chrono Trigger a worse experience. I haven't enjoyed Trigger the way I used to since I played Cross 17 years ago.
 
I thought that that animated short that detailed the war and such was actually really well done. Every other piece of media other than that and the first film though? Yeah...

I barely recall the contents of that disc, because I actively tried to erase it from my mind. I do remember that the cause of the war was humans bullying their robot servants. Or wasn't it one specific robot? It came across almost like child abuse, and finally the robots had had enough.

Gotta be the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
 
Top Bottom