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[Saucestin_Roast]

As a person who replays the original Paper Mario N64 and TTYD at least once every 2 years, I seriously couldn't even make it 3 hours into Sticker Star or Color Splash without stopping out of boredom and disappointment.

I wanted Sticker Star to be good so damn badly. When it wasn't, I kind of brushed it off and excused it as weird Miyamoto spinoff of a failure. Then Color Splash was announced and I heard that it did away with some of Sticker Star's design flaws. Again, I was excited.

But boy did I get burned for a second time with that game. Yes the game has funnier writing and is beautiful, and im really happy about that, but damn near everything else is just tedious and boring. It's like they forgot what made Paper Mario special. I regret giving nintendo money with those two games. I hate to be harsh but I don't want to reward them for the decisions they made.

Oh and I agree with a previous poster that the reason why people were more accepting of SPM when it came out was because they figured there was a more traditional Paper Mario still on the way. That was definitely how I thought about it at the time. Sadly we're STILL waiting for that third traditional Paper Mario.

And we may be waiting for forever.

 

[HK-47]

As a person who replays the original Paper Mario N64 and TTYD at least once every 2 years, I seriously couldn't even make it 3 hours into Sticker Star or Color Splash without stopping out of boredom and disappointment.

I wanted Sticker Star to be good so damn badly. When it wasn't, I kind of brushed it off and excused it as weird Miyamoto spinoff of a failure. Then Color Splash was announced and I heard that it did away with some of Sticker Star's design flaws. Again, I was excited.

But boy did I get burned for a second time with that game. Yes the game has funnier writing and is beautiful, and im really happy about that, but damn near everything else is just tedious and boring. It's like they forgot what made Paper Mario special. I regret giving nintendo money with those two games. I hate to be harsh but I don't want to reward them for the decisions they made.

Oh and I agree with a previous poster that the reason why people were more accepting of SPM when it came out was because they figured there was a more traditional Paper Mario still on the way. That was definitely how I thought about it at the time. Sadly we're STILL waiting for that third traditional Paper Mario.

And we may be waiting for forever.

From a writing, character design and atmosphere stand point SPM is also much more like the original 2 games. Just probably too long winded for its own good

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

I didn't watch the video initially because I thought it would be repeating the same points other PM fans have been repeating on forums since 2012. And guess what, that's exactly what it is complete with half the video being a nostalgia wank for TTYD plus it dissed Super Paper Mario. That and it takes forever to get to the point. This video shouldn't exist.

 

[Rudolf]

But boy did I get burned for a second time with that game. Yes the game has funnier writing and is beautiful, and im really happy about that, but damn near everything else is just tedious and boring. It's like they forgot what made Paper Mario special. I regret giving nintendo money with those two games. I hate to be harsh but I don't want to reward them for the decisions they made.

I don't see how we can fin find Color Splash tedious or boring, contrary to TYD. Chapter 1 is okay (but it's just a remake of Paper Mario 64's chapter 1), chapter 2 is really good with a nice atmosphere, original concept and good level-design (maybe the best chapter in the game). But then, after chapter 2, the game is dying.

Chapter 3 is exciting the first time we play it, but when we replay it, it is too long, too repetitive, the level-design is lame.

Chapter 4 has an excellent idea, but totally ruined by too much and uninteresting back-tracking without level-design. We must go to the church 3 times, by walking through straight lines without level-design !!! Even the church is lame, compared to the mansions in Paper Mario 64's chapter 3.

Same problem in chapter 5 : good idea, but totally ruined by too much back-tracking. We must go 3 times to the cave's entrance through straight lines and with unavoidable and uninteresting fights. It's even worse : after the boss, we must return to the island and go back to the cave's entrance for the 4th times (4 times !!! ) to pick-up a lost ring (and after pressing A 100 times, so the man can say "I love you" 100 times, so boring ! ). This chapter is humiliated by chapter 5's island in Paper Mario 64 which has a far better level-design, and also even more humiliated by pirate levels in Color Splash.

Chapter 6 is nice the first time, but same problem than chapter 3, even worse : we stay almost two hours in a train without level-design (and it gives the player a "déjà vu" feeling because there was already an "Agatha Cristie" segment in Paper Mario 64's chapter 7, except it was more interesting and much faster). Riverside train station is totally empty and uinteresting. PIcally Hills and its temple are very disappointing, there is nothing to see there. I was expecting a true and memorable level behind the painting, but no : it was just an empty room (with avoidable Boos). I was hoping much more of this moment ! We find exactly the same idea of the "screen" capturing the hero in Color Splash, but far more, more, MORE genius and memorable in Color Splash !

And then, there is this terrible chapter 7. First, we go through uninteresting straight lines in a snowy region, to a Bob-Omb City which is far less interesting than the penguin's city in Paper Mario 64. And the moutains and its Crystal Palace were far more interesting in their level-design and atmosphere (remember the incredible music in the moutain or the palace) than in TYD. Even Sticker Star's snowy levels were more interesting, with an excellent music and good level-design. And then, there are these very annoying and tedious back-tracking to look after the white general. Even the moon is just six or seven empty screens (from left to right or from right to left) without nothing to do, and the fact this is the moon to justify empty environment isn't an excuse : in Paper Mario 64 there was a vast desert, we could go up, down, left, right, there was many more interesting secrets to find, and even a nice and original mechanic to find and rise again ancient ruins. X-nauts lair was ok though (and with an excellent music, maybe the best in the game, because I didn't like TYD's soundtrack).

The final chapter is okay, but it isn't enough to forget all the flaws in the entire game. But the staff rool is pretty lame, whereas Color Splash's credit theme and staff roll are magnificent. Plus, I find TYD's story and dialog uninteresting, same thing for the X-Nauts : why did they invent new other enemies who wanted to rule the world, just as Bowser and his minions ? It's useless. They should have put Bowser and his minions instead (or give the X-Nauts a far more interesting background, like the memorable Bleck count in Super Paper Mario). The X-Nauts just replace the Shyguys, which are absent in TYD (or just in the public) : it's a pity because the Shyguys were very funny and memorable in Paper Mario 64 (or Sticker Star and Color Splash). It's a shame Bowser is totally ridiculous and useless in TYD (and his 3 retro stages are pretty lame, compared to Super Paper Mario or a certain level in Color Splash). TYD's story isn't interesting, the characters speak too much to say nothing interesting (in Super Paper Mario some dialogs were also uninteresting, but the story was far more interesting and original).

And as I said it earlier, Super Paper Mario has the same flaws as TYD, but I think they are more bearable in a side-scrolling Action-RPG than in an RPG with turn-based combats. And contrary to TYD and Super Paper Mario, the other games (Paper Mario 64, Sticker Star and Color Splash) never sacrifice gameplay's pleasure to jokes, scenario and uninteresting dialogs (pressing A 100 times to say "I love you" or writing "please" 5 times). But for a reason I don't understand, people are far more indulgent with Paper Mario TYD than with Super Paper Mario (in fact I know the reason : there is no turn-based combat in Super Paper Mario, but in my opinion it harms the game more than in SPM because of these flaws I talked about earlier).

So, I think Paper Mario 64 and Color Splash are very much balanced (and very close in their delightful naive atmosphere and conception). Their minimalist main story works much better, because they have a lot of micro-stories and original events which are memorable (each level tels its own little story). And I prefer their colorful, delightful atmosphere (I don't like the main city in TYD, too nasty, and it's universe is too heterogeneous, in Super Paper Mario some backgrounds and character designs are ugly, and Sticker Star was too minimalist and there wasn't enough memorable characters and micro-stories).

 

[hotcyder]

I thought this thread and it's bad opinion were dead but I guess not D:

 

[Pokemaniac]

I don't see how we can fin find Color Splash tedious or boring, contrary to TYD. Chapter 1 is okay (but it's just a remake of Paper Mario 64's chapter 1), chapter 2 is really good with a nice atmosphere, original concept and good level-design (maybe the best chapter in the game). But then, after chapter 2, the game is dying.

Chapter 3 is exciting the first time we play it, but when we replay it, it is too long, too repetitive, the level-design is lame.

Chapter 4 has an excellent idea, but totally ruined by too much and uninteresting back-tracking without level-design. We must go to the church 3 times, by walking through straight lines without level-design !!! Even the church is lame, compared to the mansions in Paper Mario 64's chapter 3.

Same problem in chapter 5 : good idea, but totally ruined by too much back-tracking. We must go 3 times to the cave's entrance through straight lines and with unavoidable and uninteresting fights. It's even worse : after the boss, we must return to the island and go back to the cave's entrance for the 4th times (4 times !!! ) to pick-up a lost ring (and after pressing A 100 times, so the man can say "I love you" 100 times, so boring ! ). This chapter is humiliated by chapter 5's island in Paper Mario 64 which has a far better level-design, and also even more humiliated by pirate levels in Color Splash.

Chapter 6 is nice the first time, but same problem than chapter 3, even worse : we stay almost two hours in a train without level-design (and it gives the player a "déjà vu" feeling because there was already an "Agatha Cristie" segment in Paper Mario 64's chapter 7, except it was more interesting and much faster). Riverside train station is totally empty and uinteresting. PIcally Hills and its temple are very disappointing, there is nothing to see there. I was expecting a true and memorable level behind the painting, but no : it was just an empty room (with avoidable Boos). I was hoping much more of this moment ! We find exactly the same idea of the "screen" capturing the hero in Color Splash, but far more, more, MORE genius and memorable in Color Splash !

And then, there is this terrible chapter 7. First, we go through uninteresting straight lines in a snowy region, to a Bob-Omb City which is far less interesting than the penguin's city in Paper Mario 64. And the moutains and its Crystal Palace were far more interesting in their level-design and atmosphere (remember the incredible music in the moutain or the palace) than in TYD. Even Sticker Star's snowy levels were more interesting, with an excellent music and good level-design. And then, there are these very annoying and tedious back-tracking to look after the white general. Even the moon is just six or seven empty screens (from left to right or from right to left) without nothing to do, and the fact this is the moon to justify empty environment isn't an excuse : in Paper Mario 64 there was a vast desert, we could go up, down, left, right, there was many more interesting secrets to find, and even a nice and original mechanic to find and rise again ancient ruins. X-nauts lair was ok though (and with an excellent music, maybe the best in the game, because I didn't like TYD's soundtrack).

The final chapter is okay, but it isn't enough to forget all the flaws in the entire game. But the staff rool is pretty lame, whereas Color Splash's credit theme and staff roll are magnificent. Plus, I find TYD's story and dialog uninteresting, same thing for the X-Nauts : why did they invent new other enemies who wanted to rule the world, just as Bowser and his minions ? It's useless. They should have put Bowser and his minions instead (or give the X-Nauts a far more interesting background, like the memorable Bleck count in Super Paper Mario). The X-Nauts just replace the Shyguys, which are absent in TYD (or just in the public) : it's a pity because the Shyguys were very funny and memorable in Paper Mario 64 (or Sticker Star and Color Splash). It's a shame Bowser is totally ridiculous and useless in TYD (and his 3 retro stages are pretty lame, compared to Super Paper Mario or a certain level in Color Splash). TYD's story isn't interesting, the characters speak too much to say nothing interesting (in Super Paper Mario some dialogs were also uninteresting, but the story was far more interesting and original).

And as I said it earlier, Super Paper Mario has the same flaws as TYD, but I think they are more bearable in a side-scrolling Action-RPG than in an RPG with turn-based combats. And contrary to TYD and Super Paper Mario, the other games (Paper Mario 64, Sticker Star and Color Splash) never sacrifice gameplay's pleasure to jokes, scenario and uninteresting dialogs (pressing A 100 times to say "I love you" or writing "please" 5 times). But for a reason I don't understand, people are far more indulgent with Paper Mario TYD than with Super Paper Mario (in fact I know the reason : there is no turn-based combat in Super Paper Mario, but in my opinion it harms the game more than in SPM because of these flaws I talked about earlier).

So, I think Paper Mario 64 and Color Splash are very much balanced (and very close in their delightful naive atmosphere and conception). Their minimalist main story works much better, because they have a lot of micro-stories and original events which are memorable (each level tels its own little story). And I prefer their colorful, delightful atmosphere (I don't like the main city in TYD, too nasty, and it's universe is too heterogeneous, in Super Paper Mario some backgrounds and character designs are ugly, and Sticker Star was too minimalist and there wasn't enough memorable characters and micro-stories).

The thing that makes Color Splash really tedious to interact with is the battle system. They seem to exist as some sort of misguided attempt to appeal to the people who liked the original Paper Mario games, but they actively drag the game down. There's no real sense of progression, despite the whole paint capacity thing. In my time playing Color Splash (I just couldn't keep going sometime during Chapter 2) it threw so much pain at me that it didn't really seem to matter. The action commands have all been simplified down to a single button, but have paradoxically become harder since they shortened the windows because screw you. The partners are just gone and they don't even let you manually target enemies anymore, removing a lot of the strategic options that were once had. The special attacks have been replaced by style over substance "things", which don't even have action commands. The bosses are just glorified item checks.

Overall the battle system is just not fun to engage with and has cumbersome menus on top of that. Color Splash really would be a much better game without it.

And this isn't even getting in to the story being a boring retread with Bowser as the main villain again (seriously that only happened once in a Mario RPG before Sticker Star and has happened every single time since then).

Also I find it interesting that you say that TTYD was too heterogeneous, since Color Splash has the exact opposite problem. Everything just looks the same.

 

[Rudolf]

The thing that makes Color Splash really tedious to interact with is the battle system. They seem to exist as some sort of misguided attempt to appeal to the people who liked the original Paper Mario games, but they actively drag the game down. There's no real sense of progression, despite the whole paint capacity thing. In my time playing Color Splash (I just couldn't keep going sometime during Chapter 2) it threw so much pain at me that it didn't really seem to matter

.

I disagree. Its battle system is basically the same as in Paper Mario 64, with Mario acting several times in one turn (so it replaces the partners, plus there are enemy cards to use), the flower points are replaced by paint level (which increases when you fight enough enemies, you can have "hammers" instead of the traditional star points), and the traditional badges are just replaced by battle cards (quake hammer, power bounce, Spike Shield to jump ton enemies having peaks, Multibounce, etc : all is here). Plus, the cards become more and more powerful, and Mario can increase his damages when he gets HP up after each boss.

We can't "choose" the enemy, but it isn't a problem and it doesn't harm the tactics, because all battles in the game (except the bosses) are done to be won in one turn, so the player must think and choose the right cards to kill all enemies in one turn. By choosing well the cards, in fact it is possible to "choose" our enemies (it's just a question of order of the chosen attacks). If we play well, the battles in Color Splash are definitely shorter than in Paper Mario 64 and TYD.

And I think the enemies are more charismatic in Color Splash : they have animation, they can be bent or creased, they can be gathered, they can talk (sometimes it's funny, like the mole hiding in its hole to look for more tools), some of them can even steal our cards (the Shyguys) if we wait too long, there are the Sombrero Shyguys playing guitar to buff his partners, etc. In TYD, the enemies are too "static", not enough original nor surprising in their behavior (even Paper Mario 64 had more original enemies, thanks to the Shyguys who are sadly absent in TYD).

Finally, the battles in Paper Mario TYD remain a little better, but I think that the battles in Color Splash are better than in Paper Mario 64 (in this game, it's a little too slow).

The action commands have all been simplified down to a single button, but have paradoxically become harder since they shortened the windows because screw you.

Exactly : the action commands are more difficult in Color Splash, especially the hammer : I consider it a good point (in Paper Mario 64 and TYD, the hammer was too easy to use, no difficulty, so maybe it wasn't not so useful to propose action command for the hammer). And I can tell you the objects like flowers or POW need action commands in Color Splash, but not at all in Paper Mario 64 and TYD.

The special attacks have been replaced by style over substance "things", which don't even have action commands. The bosses are just glorified item checks.

WRONG : the special attacks HAVE action commands : they are just "hidden" and more empiric, no button icon appear, but there are action commands when you use the "Things". For example, you have to press the button in the good rhythm to maximize damages with Super Mario Bros 3's flute, or press the button in the correct moment to maximize damages with the giant hammer, etc. So you can obtain "Good", "Super" or "Excellent" during the "thing" attacks.

Concerning the bosses, not at all : you must use the "Things" only after you fight them normally, and you must use the right cards and have the right timings against them. So the bosses battles aren't only "instant win" by just using the good object like in a Zelda game.

Also I find it interesting that you say that TTYD was too heterogeneous, since Color Splash has the exact opposite problem. Everything just looks the same.

What do you mean ? The levels in Color Splash are varied : plain, lake, volcano, mountain, fortress tower, mansion, garden, factory, military base, pirate islands, cave, forests big/small, beach, restaurant, coliseum, ancient temple, train, circus, retro game...
But I think these levels are varied in the good way, so I can feel all of them belong to the same world, contrary to TYD when I think the levels are too different and too "disconnected" from each other. But it's hard for me to explain, it's a very personal feeling.