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What if Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day were GameCube launch titles instead?

Electret

Member
PD Zero was at one point a title Nintendo wanted for launch or near launch for the GameCube.

Rare being unable to deliver it (and all those other games planed outside of SFA) contributed to Nintendo's attitude of "why would we do that?" when the Stampers offered them the buyout.

At least, that's what I've been told.

Interesting and logical.

Matt - did you ever hear anything about the GC version of PD Zero? I've always held an irrational fascination with this incarnation for which we only saw footage of a Joanna character model. There was some test footage of the game early in development for OG Xbox that popped up on Youtube, though that's not quite the same.
 

Matt

Member
Interesting and logical.

Matt - did you ever hear anything about the GC version of PD Zero? I've always held an irrational fascination with this incarnation for which we only saw footage of a Joanna character model. There was some test footage of the game early in development for OG Xbox that popped up on Youtube, though that's not quite the same.
Just that the project was a giant mess.

But I was in elementary school when this was happening, so it's all second hand.
 

PillarEN

Member
Gamecube launch period was pretty amazing though. You had Luigi's Mansion, Rougue Squadron 2, Eternal Darkenss (your go to M rated edgy blood game. I say that with kindness not a sneer) and Melee in early December. From November to the end of December was a great time to have a Gamecube.

If only Indigo wasn't the primary color. Couldn't defend that damn lunchbox in middle school with that color man. Was a losing battle.
 

Electret

Member
Just that the project was a giant mess.

But I was in elementary school when this was happening, so it's all second hand.

Thanks, I appreciate that tidbit. I still dream of a proper PD sequel, but I don't think it will ever happen.

PD Zero's development is reminiscent of a more extreme example in Too Human, a game that spanned, what, three or four different platforms only to also launch on 360 to universal disappointment. That's another title I eagerly anticipated once Silicon Knights started working with Nintendo. The older concept sounded much more interesting and quite different from what we got.
 
This is foggy, but I remember reading interviews where it was mentioned that there was a superb programmer who joined Perfect Dark's team around 1999, and was heavily involved in the Gamecube version of Perfect Dark: Zero which ostensibly looked and ran better than the later Xbox version. But he was an "asshole" so he got fired, and the Xbox version was created without him. Which was a problem.
 

jtb

Banned
The console FPS genre is divided into two eras. Before Halo and after Halo. Perfect Dark was good for an N64 game, but Halo changed everything. All console FPS since exist in its shadow and influence.

i can't buy that PD would have served as a killer app for the Gamecube at all, when it probably would have felt like PDZ did: a stale, ugly title better suited for the previous gen.

Conker was never going to be anything other than an ultra niche title.

Gamecube launch period was pretty amazing though. You had Luigi's Mansion, Rougue Squadron 2, Eternal Darkenss (your go to M rated edgy blood game. I say that with kindness not a sneer) and Melee in early December. From November to the end of December was a great time to have a Gamecube.

If only Indigo wasn't the primary color. Couldn't defend that damn lunchbox in middle school with that color man. Was a losing battle.

Yup. The launch window was fine. It was all just too little too late. Giving the PS2 more than a year head start AND not being able to match either GTA III (a title nobody here has mentioned despite being THE game of the PS2 era) or Halo with a killer app was something GC could never recover from.
 
The console FPS genre is divided into two eras. Before Halo and after Halo. Perfect Dark was good for an N64 game, but Halo changed everything. All console FPS since exist in its shadow and influence.

I can't buy that PD would have served as a killer app for the Gamecube at all, when it probably would have felt like PDZ did: a stale, ugly title better suited for the previous gen.
I feel this view is simply too simplistic. Allow me to explain, and forgive me for partially repeating some earlier posts.

Halo sold 5-6 million copies, and was a huge success. This is well known.

What people keep forgetting for some bizarre reason is that Nightfire was released one year after Halo: Combat Evolved, and sold 4.9 million copies. (Possibly more, since by some reports it sold 5 million in the first year of release. But there are no reliable sources for that, and no sales figures for the Gearbox PC version, either.)

Eurocom had previously developed The World is Not Enough for N64, a GoldenEye clone that sold a respectable million copies in late 2000. Nightfire drifted from Rareware's design template, but most of the essential elements were intact. Everything from the optional decoupled aiming system -- refined to allow strafing -- to the overall mission design, which while more linear, still preserved a lot of alternate routes and explorable areas and the like. Nightfire was TWINE 2.0, essentially. Complete with TWINE's fetish for bullet ricochet and sexy pistol silencer screwing animations.

2lpYIJs.jpg


hNaltwd.jpg


Out of the box, Nightfire uses GoldenEye's "left stick turns and moves forward/back" system.

Z78iUPA.png


But of course, just like GE/PD, the game has alternate control schemes including a standard dual stick layout. And unlike those games, it asks you to select your preferred layout when you first boot the game.

WOO4qVp.png


And it sold ~5 million copies.

A year after Halo had supposedly made this style of game hopelessly "dated".

hOoLL7P.gif


A GoldenEye/Perfect Dark clone almost outsold Halo despite being released a year after Halo. One can say, "Well, that's multiplatform dev for you", but the fact remains.
 
Might not have made a huge difference for Conker, but I imagine Perfect Dark would have propelled the system's launch somewhat.

In the end though all it would have done is let the GameCube trade places with Xbox in terms of hardware sales.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Just that the project was a giant mess.

But I was in elementary school when this was happening, so it's all second hand.

Did you have an uncle who worked at Rare when you were in elementary school or something? Lol

The console FPS genre is divided into two eras. Before Halo and after Halo. Perfect Dark was good for an N64 game, but Halo changed everything. All console FPS since exist in its shadow and influence.

i can't buy that PD would have served as a killer app for the Gamecube at all, when it probably would have felt like PDZ did: a stale, ugly title better suited for the previous gen.

Conker was never going to be anything other than an ultra niche title.

I don't think saying PD would've felt like a "stale, ugly" game at the GameCube's launch makes any sense considering everything about the game would be improved thanks to the GameCube's superior hardware, as I already mentioned in the OP. The framerate and graphics would've been a hell of a lot better and maybe even the controls could've been improved. You have to remember it wouldn't be the exact same game as it was on the N64. It also would've had more development time. It could've turned out to be even better than the N64 version.

Same with Conker, although to a lesser extent. I don't understand why everybody is downplaying that game in this thread. I'm sure the game would've garnered way more attention and more of an audience than the N64 release got. It also would've been a pretty controversial title coming from Nintendo as a launch title for their own console. I feel like it would've caused more controversy on the GameCube due to having way more attention as a launch title.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
If they had waited until the GC launch to release PD then there would have been an almost 5 year gap between GoldenEye and it's sequel (GC didn't launch here until May 2002 because Nintendo hates Europe). I'm not sure I could have waited so long personally.

I reckon Nintendo and Rare would have been better served by scrapping Dinosaur Planet and starting work on PD2 for the Gamecube instead.
 

Doukou

Member

I can't find anything on Nightfire selling 5 mil
James Bond 007: Agent Under Fire apperently sold almost 5 mil(but nothing about this being first year sales) but that was also multiplat and came around the same time as halo
 
I can't find anything on Nightfire selling 5 mil
There's no reliable source, and yes, that's a good point. There is this quote from a James Bond fan site:

"After one year on sale, "NightFire" shifted 5 million units cross-platform and was one of EA's top games of 2003."

https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/gaming_bond_business.php3

VG-Chartz pegs the game around 4.9 million, not including the PC version which was a completely different game developed by Gearbox. There are no sales figures for the PC version of Nightfire, but I would wager it sold decently. But it is annoying how hard precisely tracking game sales is.

Unfortunately game sales from that period tend to be really foggy around different versions being counted, such as Platinum Edition re-releases, and also international figures.

So the sales can basically be placed between 3 and 5 million, depending on which figures you use. You see something similar with Perfect Dark, where sales estimates are 2.5 million but ex-Rare people claim it sold 3.2 million. Which is a fairly hefty 700k difference.

James Bond 007: Agent Under Fire apperently sold almost 5 mil(but nothing about this being first year sales) but that was also multiplat and came around the same time as halo
They were released 2 days apart, but of course the Xbox/Halo hadn't had an opportunity to eat everyone's lunch at that point. AUF is an interesting game because it was originally a port of TWINE to PS2/PC, but it ended up becoming its own, arguably... not as good game. It's IMO a very stiff and clunky feeling Bond FPS.
 

The_Lump

Banned
I agree with you. Perfect Dark released too late in N64's life for people to care.

The biggest problem with GameCube is it never had it's own Goldeneye, and it didn't have a FPS to go up against Halo. Perfect Dark would have been GameCube's answer to Halo.

This is true, PD came out way too late after so many delays it became comical.

Trouble is, had it slipped to GC, it would have looked fairly pathetic against Halo in all honestly (and I say that as someone who enjoyed PD waaaay more than I did Halo). Halo was a seminal game for gen 6 - it felt fresh, open and was as close to playing a proper PC FPS game as you could get on console. In comparison PD, whilst improving on Goldeneye greatly, still had many of its problems and felt much more on rails and small-scale than Halo.

For me that was fine, because I loved Goldeneye so much. And in the vacuum of N64's final years it was great (not to mention after so much build up!). But had it come out in gen 6 alongside Halo I think it might have done XBox more favours than it did Gamecube in all honesty.
 

Jackano

Member
I admit I had some fun with Nightfire (I think?) with my friends but while it wasn't really Goldeneye (well, it probably was better in some regards) it was far from Perfect Dark.


Perfect Dark could have helped the Gamecube (and I mean, the game being even better but not selling consoles) but I'm not sure it was possible, or the decison needed to be made way more earlier, like Dinosaur Planet.
 
I admit I had some fun with Nightfire (I think?) with my friends but while it wasn't really Goldeneye (well, it probably was better in some regards) it was far from Perfect Dark.
Perfect Dark is a vastly superior game to Nightfire, IMO, but Nightfire did have some lovely nods to Perfect Dark, such as alternate fire modes for weapons, enemies surrendering, and a mission set in a skyscraper where a helicopter gunship circles the building and tries to strafe you sometimes -- an utterly explicit homage to Perfect Dark's Datadyne: Extraction. But while Eurocom were Rareware's successor (and Rare/Free Radical/Eurocom people all ended up at Dambuster in the end) they had a slightly different approach to game design, and with the exception of some of the missions in TWINE which is extremely close to GE in design, none of their games took the same mini-sandbox approach. Their GoldenEye from 2010 does feature objectives and side objectives, and all that -- but the objectives are generally found along the way. You don't go looking for them here and there. I think that's an extremely crucial distinction that made Eurocom's work feel less true to the spirit of Rare's work, even if they mimicked just about everything else to a T.

What's interesting, though, is that Eurocom translated Rareware's design formula into a more "contemporary" format -- the PS2/GC/Xbox without changing the underlying mechanics all that much. I feel this simple fact demonstrates that Rareware's FPS games were not "dated" in any meaningful sense. Their mechanics translated flawlessly to the next generation of consoles.
 

daTRUballin

Member
If they had waited until the GC launch to release PD then there would have been an almost 5 year gap between GoldenEye and it's sequel (GC didn't launch here until May 2002 because Nintendo hates Europe). I'm not sure I could have waited so long personally.

I reckon Nintendo and Rare would have been better served by scrapping Dinosaur Planet and starting work on PD2 for the Gamecube instead.

Well, Perfect Dark Zero was actually in development for the GC before the Microsoft buyout. PDZ was effectively "PD2" in some sense.

They were released 2 days apart, but of course the Xbox/Halo hadn't had an opportunity to eat everyone's lunch at that point. AUF is an interesting game because it was originally a port of TWINE to PS2/PC, but it ended up becoming its own, arguably... not as good game. It's IMO a very stiff and clunky feeling Bond FPS.

I've always been interested to know how the PS2 version of TWINE was like. The PS1, N64, and GBC versions of the games were all entirely different from one another. I wonder if the PS2 version was going to continue down that road and be something entirely different as well? Although I do remember a former Eurocom employee pointing out in one of my other threads that the PS2 version was going to just be a port of the N64 version, unless I'm remembering wrong.

EDIT: Looking back at the thread, I was sort of right, but not really.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=225340399

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=225346129

EA were apparently doing an entirely new version of TWINE on the PS2, but then decided to change it to AUF. Eurocom offered to port the N64 version of TWINE as a fill-in, but EA said no. So both ideas were considered, but didn't happen.
 
I've always been interested to know how the PS2 version of TWINE was like. The PS1, N64, and GBC versions of the games were all entirely different from one another. I wonder if the PS2 version was going to continue down that road and be something entirely different as well? Although I do remember a former Eurocom employee pointing out in one of my other threads that the PS2 version was going to just be a port of the N64 version, unless I'm remembering wrong.
The PS1 TWINE was by Black Ops Entertainment, and while I don't like it very much, it is an interesting and ambitious PS1 title.

In an ideal world, we might have gotten a version of TWINE free from Danjaq's meddling such as "No Bond music" and "Good can't fight good." (Meaning that "good" characters were not allowed to fight "good" characters in multiplayer, which gave Eurocom some grief.)
 

daTRUballin

Member
The PS1 TWINE was by Black Ops Entertainment, and while I don't like it very much, it is an interesting and ambitious PS1 title.

In an ideal world, we might have gotten a version of TWINE free from Danjaq's meddling such as "No Bond music" and "Good can't fight good." (Meaning that "good" characters were not allowed to fight "good" characters in multiplayer, which gave Eurocom some grief.)

Yeah haha, I remember playing TWINE's multiplayer and finding that very irritating. What a very strange mandate to have. It seemed like after how violent Goldeneye was for its time, EON got cold feet and didn't let future Bond games to have blood and stuff like that. And I'm guessing the good guys can't fight good guys thing was a part of that. It's very weird.

Looking back, it's probably a good thing Rare decided to make Perfect Dark instead of another Bond game. They had actual creative freedom with PD and could do whatever they wanted. Whereas if they were to make another 007 game, EON or Danjaq or whoever would've probably meddled with their game in the same way.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
This is true, PD came out way too late after so many delays it became comical

Comical is a bit of an extreme, it was announced in June 1998 (after 6 months in development) and came out 2 years later. PDZ on the other hand...........
 
Yeah haha, I remember playing TWINE's multiplayer and finding that very irritating. What a very strange mandate to have. It seemed like after how violent Goldeneye was for its time, EON got cold feet and didn't let future Bond games to have blood and stuff like that. And I'm guessing the good guys can't fight good guys thing was a part of that. It's very weird.
I recall Randy Pitchford saying that when they were developing their version of Nightfire, they were pressured to remove all guns from the game.

Gearbox's Nightfire is a strange game because it's a technical mess with horrible, horrible combat -- but it does have really nice level design in places. The guy behind the fan patch for the game says the whole thing feels extremely rushed, with sections of levels cut out, unfinished cutscenes, and all that sort of thing. Plus several fundamentally broken engine features such as decals, lighting, and weapon selection. Making licensed Bond games has always put developers at the mercy of publishers demanding a game to coincide with the latest movie, and the Christmas period. In Nightfire's case, it was Die Another Day. And even Eurocom's -- IMO fantastic -- Nightfire feels that pinch. It's kinda short. A little unpolished in spots. Without that horrible pressure, they would have been able to polish for a few extra months.

Then, 10 years later, Activision gave Eurocom 6 months to make 007: Legends as a tie-in for Skyfall, and quality suffered. Such a tragedy because 007: Legends has real flashes of brilliance and passion. They went bankrupt shortly afterwards.
 

daTRUballin

Member
I recall Randy Pitchford saying that when they were developing their version of Nightfire, they were pressured to remove all guns from the game.

Gearbox's Nightfire is a strange game because it's a technical mess with horrible, horrible combat -- but it does have really nice level design in places. The guy behind the fan patch for the game says the whole thing feels extremely rushed, with sections of levels cut out, unfinished cutscenes, and all that sort of thing. Plus several fundamentally broken engine features such as decals, lighting, and weapon selection. Making licensed Bond games has always put developers at the mercy of publishers demanding a game to coincide with the latest movie, and the Christmas period. In Nightfire's case, it was Die Another Day. And even Eurocom's -- IMO fantastic -- Nightfire feels that pinch. It's kinda short. A little unpolished in spots. Without that horrible pressure, they would have been able to polish for a few extra months.

Then, 10 years later, Activision gave Eurocom 6 months to make 007: Legends as a tie-in for Skyfall, and quality suffered. Such a tragedy because 007: Legends has real flashes of brilliance and passion. They went bankrupt shortly afterwards.

I honestly think all these mandates and restrictions that were forced upon the developers working on post-Goldeneye Bond games were probably because of the recent Columbine shooting. It was around this time that the video game industry became paranoid about being blamed for violence in the real world and started to appease the soccer moms and politicians. Obviously right now I'm not talking about the deadlines that required the games to release around the same time a Bond movie did. That's for a different reason. I'm just referring to the no blood or violence rules and stuff like that.

Both versions of TWINE came out in late 2000 which was not even two years after Columbine. All other Bond games like AUF and Nightfire were also a few years after Columbine as well. You also have to remember the whole Gameboy face-mapping feature that Rare had planned for Perfect Dark during development, but then it was mysteriously cancelled. At the time, Rare or Nintendo or whoever came out with some bullshit PR response about how they couldn't get it to work or thought the game didn't need it or something, but it was obviously because they were trying to avoid any potential controversy. PD also came out about a year after Columbine too. It was just the kind of environment and time period these games released in that maybe explains why certain things were the way they turned out to be in these games.

But maybe I'm just completely wrong about all this and am just making wild guesses. :p
 

The_Lump

Banned
Comical is a bit of an extreme, it was announced in June 1998 (after 6 months in development) and came out 2 years later. PDZ on the other hand...........

Well remember most gaming news at the time came almost exclusively in monthly doses from magazines, so delays always felt much worse as you did not have the constant stream of new information and discussion/speculation we have nowadays.

But it's possible I'm conflating PD and PDZ in my mind, so fair point!
 
I honestly think all these mandates and restrictions that were forced upon the developers working on post-Goldeneye Bond games were probably because of the recent Columbine shooting. It was around this time that the video game industry became paranoid about being blamed for violence in the real world and started to appease the soccer moms and politicians. Obviously right now I'm not talking about the deadlines that required the games to release around the same time a Bond movie did. That's for a different reason. I'm just referring to the no blood or violence rules and stuff like that.

Both versions of TWINE came out in late 2000 which was not even two years after Columbine. All other Bond games like AUF and Nightfire were also a few years after Columbine as well. You also have to remember the whole Gameboy face-mapping feature that Rare had planned for Perfect Dark during development, but then it was mysteriously cancelled. At the time, Rare or Nintendo or whoever came out with some bullshit PR response about how they couldn't get it to work or thought the game didn't need it or something, but it was obviously because they were trying to avoid any potential controversy. PD also came out about a year after Columbine too. It was just the kind of environment and time period these games released in that maybe explains why certain things were the way they turned out to be in these games.

But maybe I'm just completely wrong about all this and am just making wild guesses. :p
Yes, that is a factor most certainly. Not just columbine, but stuff like 9/11, too. One Acclaim Austin developer mentioned that there was a period when they'd be showing their work to executives, and there would be nervous murmuring when a planet exploded or something exploded in a manner that could be visually reminiscent of terrorism in some way, shape, or form.

In Bond's case, I believe Barbara Broccoli was a sticking point. She assumed control of the IP in 1995. GoldenEye kinda slipped through the cracks, but everything after that was open season in regards to she or her people meddling in the game's violence, sex, licensed content usage, etc.

It's remarkable that Gearbox managed to slip the underwear revealing X-ray glasses into their Nightfire. Possibly they justified them because they were featured in The World is Not Enough (film).
 

deriks

4-Time GIF/Meme God
Maybe?!

GC fail to be a great selling because it wasn't launched with a real Mario game. And when Sunshine arrived, well, it's far from Mario 64 standards.

Also, other games didn't receive a major marketing strategy. I bought Metroi Prime as soon as I could, but my friends didn't care for the game. Zelda also failed with the marketing because of the visual - which is a dumb cause, but was the case.

Perfect Dark and Conker on GC would push a little, but not that much. New IPs are hard and there's chance that people can say "I'm not gonna buy for one game" or something.
 
On their own, I think they would only be modestly beneficial for the GameCube. The real benefit that the GameCube would see is that Rare would have probably been kept on with Nintendo, and the success of both Conker and Perfect Dark might have wound up convincing Nintendo to straight up buy them out. We'd also probably see a new Donkey Kong game from them.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
But it's possible I'm conflating PD and PDZ in my mind, so fair point!

What a long wait for something so mediocre, the situation would have been more interesting if it was just plain bad. I was a broke student at the time so was getting ready to call in all my favours and goodwill to get an Xbox 360 at launch, just for PDZ.

The reviews were just depressing. How they spent over 5 years on that is beyond me.

The real benefit that the GameCube would see is that Rare would have probably been kept on with Nintendo, and the success of both Conker and Perfect Dark might have wound up convincing Nintendo to straight up buy them out.

If Nintendo were ever to be convinced enough to buy them out, the quality (and quantity) of the N64 games should have done the job. Such a shame, Rare not being bought by MS is the biggest 'what if' moment in the history of the industry IMO.
 

jtb

Banned
Dr. Carroll, your Nightfire fetish is bordering on the absurd lol.

There is no one, outside of you I suppose, that would suggest that Halo and Nightfire were equivalent in any way shape or form. You can't even come up with a single source to support your outlandish assertion that it sold 5 million units - and even if it did, that doesn't change the fact that Halo was a killer app because it 1. good and 2. influential. Nightfire was a licensed game on every platform known to man and, I'll admit, the Bond name still had some cache in 2002 - not too many years removed from Goldeneye. Nonetheless, they're really not comparable. You'd be hard pressed to find a single game that takes cues from Nightfire. You'd be hard pressed to find a single console FPS that doesn't take cues from Halo.

If Nightfire was Halo, then Nightfire would've been Halo and the Gamecube wouldn't have been a largely moribund console for its entire existence. But it's not.

Did you have an uncle who worked at Rare when you were in elementary school or something? Lol



I don't think saying PD would've felt like a "stale, ugly" game at the GameCube's launch makes any sense considering everything about the game would be improved thanks to the GameCube's superior hardware, as I already mentioned in the OP. The framerate and graphics would've been a hell of a lot better and maybe even the controls could've been improved. You have to remember it wouldn't be the exact same game as it was on the N64. It also would've had more development time. It could've turned out to be even better than the N64 version.

Same with Conker, although to a lesser extent. I don't understand why everybody is downplaying that game in this thread. I'm sure the game would've garnered way more attention and more of an audience than the N64 release got. It also would've been a pretty controversial title coming from Nintendo as a launch title for their own console. I feel like it would've caused more controversy on the GameCube due to having way more attention as a launch title.

That's what you would've thought with Kameo and PDZ as well, but we know that Rare is 1. slow and 2. rewrites their games when changing platforms. It's way too revisionist to say 'oh, just delay it, make the graphics better, and release!' Okay, but then it would be largely the same game - just prettier - and exist in the shadow of Halo releasing at the same time. At least PD can have a place in our hearts in the strange nether regions when it launched.

Conker is an ultra niche game. Look at how the sequel performed on the Xbox - a super 'mature' console - it has a very hard ceiling.
 

daTRUballin

Member
That's what you would've thought with Kameo and PDZ as well, but we know that Rare is 1. slow and 2. rewrites their games when changing platforms. It's way too revisionist to say 'oh, just delay it, make the graphics better, and release!' Okay, but then it would be largely the same game - just prettier - and exist in the shadow of Halo releasing at the same time. At least PD can have a place in our hearts in the strange nether regions when it launched.

Conker is an ultra niche game. Look at how the sequel performed on the Xbox - a super 'mature' console - it has a very hard ceiling.

Well, as you've said, Rare rewrites their games when changing platforms. And as I've said numerous times, PD would not have been the exact same game on the GameCube. So it wouldn't have been just "prettier" with nothing new added. The game could've easily been updated to 6th gen standards to compete with Halo. And it's not like Halo 1 had the advantage of having online play at that time. The Xbox didn't launch with online. So both games would've had split-screen multi.

Plus, Halo was an unproven new IP. While PD was also technically a new IP, it was the long-awaited spiritual sequel to Goldeneye made by the same team. You have to remember Halo looked like a disaster at E3 2001. Perhaps PD would've had even more hype behind it than Halo. We don't know. Although I do think it being a launch title for the "purple lunchbox" system could've hindered some of its hype probably.

As for Conker, first of all, the game that was released on the original Xbox wasn't a sequel. It was a remake. Second of all, saying it was an ultra niche game due to its financial failure doesn't seem fair considering both the original BFD and the Xbox remake came out at the very end of their respective console's lifecycles. Which definitely would've been a major reason why they bombed. The original also received like no significant marketing from Nintendo whatsoever. Dunno about the remake though.

So you're suggesting that if Conker were to be released at the launch of a new system, it wouldn't have garnered way more attention? Especially with the kind of controversial game Conker was? Launch titles tend to have lots of attention. While it does sound like I'm trying my hardest to defend the game, I just think that perhaps calling Conker a niche game and basing that off of its sales probably isn't a good idea considering all that I've just said.
 

flak57

Member
Conker is an ultra niche game. Look at how the sequel performed on the Xbox - a super 'mature' console - it has a very hard ceiling.

Again, it sold over 400k in the US on a dead console while Nintendo pretended it didn't exist.

Also in the US, Paper Mario came out 1 month earlier and sold 500k.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Again, it sold over 400k in the US on a dead console while Nintendo pretended it didn't exist.

Didn't the game actually sell over 700k? Granted, I read that on VG Chartz and they're not exactly reliable when it comes to software sales, are they?

EDIT: Nvm. Didn't realize you were talking about US sales. I think it sold 700k worldwide.
 
Perfect Dark certainly could have been significant. Despite the N64 being considered mostly a failure in Nintendo's eyes (disastrous in terms of Japanese support), it's biggest successes were its sales in North America, western publisher support and multiplayer games -- with Goldeneye at the forefront. It was an area for further growth that they didn't capitalize on with the GameCube.

The GameCube was very much a reaction to the N64's failure in Japan, and Nintendo worked on improved relations with Capcom, Sega, Namco, Square, etc., but they basically ignored the N64's success in the West. They didn't support the GCN's online capabilities. Rare, Silicon Knights, Left Field, Factor 5, etc. were no longer partners with Nintendo by the end of the generation.

At the same time, Microsoft comes in and steals that piece of the pie practically uncontested. Halo became the new console FPS du jour, and the Xbox is where western PC-centric developers were putting console ports. As Nintendo was working to win back Japanese hearts and minds, it wouldn't be long before the biggest third-party console games were largely western and have been mostly a non-presence on Nintendo consoles since.

I don't know if Perfect Dark changes everything in and of itself, but I know a lot of N64 owners who passed on the GameCube in favor of an Xbox. Nintendo had the biggest console FPS and the go-to console for multiplayer gaming; you have to wonder if they had played their cards right and continued to pursue that section of the market, could they have had a Halo-level success? Could a Nintendo platform have been the best place to play Call of Duty? It's interesting to think about.
 
It kinda did, actually.

timesplitters-2-56271.430531.jpg


timesplitters3_gcnbox.jpg


I know they were multi-platform (the last two games anyway), but I still maintain that TimeSplitters was basically the proper successor to Perfect Dark, in the same way PD was the successor to Goldeneye. They were developed by a lot of the same people who worked on those games and share many design and gameplay elements. It's a shame they kinda got overlooked.
They are also extremely mediocre compared to any of the aforementioned shooters.
 

mcfrank

Member
PD would have competed directly with Halo and would have really shown it's aged concepts, especially with controls. You have to remember that the c stick on the GameCube was not a full thumb padded stick. It was not good for duel stick control setups which, arguably, halo perfected.

This is right. Perfect Dark would have looked terrible as a direct competitor to Halo.
 

jtb

Banned
Halo shits on Perfect Dark from a very high perch. It shits on the Timesplitters games - which are fine and far from 'superb' FPS - from a similarly high perch. Go give the ol' CE a whirl again; I assure you its influence goes far beyond using two sticks instead of just one. It's just one of those lightning-in-a-bottle games that miraculously stumbles upon all the right notes. Whether it looked like shit at E3 01 is completely beside the point. Nobody bought Halo 1 because of the hype.

(Again, the unexpected killer app that - like Halo - hangs over all of this, unsaid, is Grand Theft Auto III. Another unheralded game that instantly put the nail in the Gamecube's coffin and unintentionally changed gaming forever.)

Perfect Dark is really the last of the pre-Halo FPS in design and execution. Porting it to the GC would either require completely rewriting the game from scratch (and thus, no longer being PD) or still being, you know, an N64 game.

Like, PDZ sucks - and it's practically an OG Xbox game. I don't really see how PD turns out all that differently outside of this fanfiction.

I'd argue GTA III was every bit as deadly to the GC as Halo was. The GTA games were ported to the Xbox. The best Nintendo could get was a fuckin' GBA game.
 
On one hand, I went with the Xbox that generation because Rare moved over there and I was in love with their N64 work. On the other hand, remove PD and CBFD from the N64 lineup and I'm not so sure I would have hands down followed Rare into the next generation.

I probably would have gone Gamecube though.
 

Fox Mulder

Member
I'm positive Perfect Dark would have been better as a Gamecube title. Dunno how Conker would have went.

Perfect Dark on the GC would have been destroyed by Halo. It reviewed well and sold a few million copies because it was on the N64.
 
Nightfire was a licensed game on every platform known to man and, I'll admit, the Bond name still had some cache in 2002 - not too many years removed from Goldeneye. Nonetheless, they're really not comparable. You'd be hard pressed to find a single game that takes cues from Nightfire. You'd be hard pressed to find a single console FPS that doesn't take cues from Halo.
This is like saying, "You'd be hard pressed to find a single film that takes cues from The Dark Knight. You'd be hard pressed to find a single action film that doesn't take cues from Michael Bay's Transformers." This isn't which game is more overtly "influential", which is honestly becoming super hard to quantify as time goes on and we run out of ideas.

This isn't about being a pop-culture zeitgeist. Some people want it to be, but I think that's missing the point. Chasing that kind of thing is how we ended up with endless Call of Duty clones that never painted outside the lines.

This is about being successful. And Nightfire was successful. The original argument was that Perfect Dark as a GC title would somehow be a problem because it was "dated" in the wake of Halo, but Nightfire was based on GE/PD's design template, and was very successful. There was is no real evidence to suggest a game like Perfect Dark could not have been immensely successful in 2002-2004 if it had adopted the relatively minor refinements of games like Nightfire and NOLF.

Or, you know, it's like arguing that Hitman 2016 or Resident Evil 7 couldn't possibly be successful because its style of gameplay is so "dated" in the wake of the almighty Uncharted.

I do want to point out how forward-thinking developers like Free Radical and Eurocom were in pursuing 60fps on consoles instead of increased visual fidelity. Games like Nightfire and TimeSplitters feel good and look good on console -- particularly in terms of responsive controls -- because they are twice as smooth as their 30fps competition.

It's way too revisionist to say 'oh, just delay it, make the graphics better, and release!' Okay, but then it would be largely the same game - just prettier - and exist in the shadow of Halo releasing at the same time. At least PD can have a place in our hearts in the strange nether regions when it launched.
Perfect Dark on the GC would have been destroyed by Halo. It reviewed well and sold a few million copies because it was on the N64.
You are aware that the XBLA remaster of Perfect Dark was both praised and quite successful for a 2010 XBLA title, I assume?

Go give the ol' CE a whirl again; I assure you its influence goes far beyond using two sticks instead of just one.
It's a very well executed FPS game. But it's also from an entirely different FPS subgenre. As I said earlier, it's like comparing Swat 4 to Modern Warfare and ignoring the fact one is a realistic police tactical shooter and the other is a story-driven cinematic FPS experience.

(Again, the unexpected killer app that - like Halo - hangs over all of this, unsaid, is Grand Theft Auto III. Another unheralded game that instantly put the nail in the Gamecube's coffin and unintentionally changed gaming forever.)
The irony being that GTA 3's predecessor Body Harvest was an N64 exclusive. Nintendo's cold feet over violence in their games really bit them on the butt.

Like, PDZ sucks - and it's practically an OG Xbox game. I don't really see how PD turns out all that differently outside of this fanfiction.
PDZ doesn't "suck". It's a flawed game that got muddled up from a too-long development over multiple platforms without a clear design direction. Making a sequel to one of the most acclaimed FPS games of all time was a tall order, and they stumbled.

Halo shits on Perfect Dark from a very high perch. It shits on the Timesplitters games - which are fine and far from 'superb' FPS - from a similarly high perch.
In what way, exactly? And what is lacking about TimeSplitters 2 and 3? I personally prefer PD because TimeSplitters was too much like GoldenEye for my tastes, but Free Radical made fantastic games.
 

Baleoce

Member
I agree with you. Perfect Dark released too late in N64's life for people to care.

The biggest problem with GameCube is it never had it's own Goldeneye, and it didn't have a FPS to go up against Halo. Perfect Dark would have been GameCube's answer to Halo.

Yeah, Goldeneye shifted 8.09mil units, and Perfect Dark did 2.52mil units. Not a lot suggests that it would have faired much better saleswise on the GameCube though. Still baffles me that Metroid Prime only managed 2.84mil (well, I probably shouldn't be that confused). Although Perfects Darks mere presence on the machine would have generated a larger install base in general, so there's that. Also, Perfect Dark was pretty much maxing the N64 out technically, which lead to them having to use the expansion pak, so the GameCube would have been a much nicer fit for the title. Probably would have seen much nicer framerates, and no awkward situation with having to lock content behind the pak. Personally I'd have loved it on the GC though.
 

Matt

Member
It's actually really interesting how internal issues at both Retro and Rare disrupted Nintendo's software plans for the entire generation.

Come to think of it, Left Field and SK also had problems delivering.
 
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