Support NeoGAF

[pixlexic]

You guys are only equating console sales to winning or losing. Software sales is what makes the money .. As long as either company has strong software sales I doubt either could care about who has the largest user base.


Then again this is exactly what I said last gen this time when the ps3 was having a rough time.

 

[rudieboy77]

They could always go the route of not reporting the sales numbers.

 

[Ryudo]

I totally agree. What Argyle had posted is just one of the reasons why I don't like Microsoft.

And Xbox fans still think that having Microsoft around in the gaming industry is good for competition. Please.

I think its cute that some peoples brains tick over and actually reason that fewer competing companies is somehow a better thing. I mean if it wasn't already pathetic enough that someone came up with the fact that Microsoft outmaneuvered Sony in terms of the Immersion rumble patent as a sole indicator of their dream of Microsoft bowing out of the console race... the whole idea of less competition being better is laughable.

I get some people don't like Microsoft and frankly I don't "like" them myself, but I don't go around preaching the death of competition is a "good" thing. Like Sony would be trying as hard as they are now without the touch up the PS3 had last generation...

 

[BrokenIcarus]

Wow, I just realized I necrobumped this thread. I have absolutely zero ideas how I might've gotten here, but I only realize this now. It's 4am and I should really be sleeping. I'll gladly respond to any responses tomorrow given the thread isn't locked by then.

 

[RealityPales]

This conversation seems a bit premature, no?

 

[Biker19]

I think its cute that some peoples brains tick over and actually reason that fewer competing companies is somehow a better thing. I mean if it wasn't already pathetic enough that someone came up with the fact that Microsoft outmaneuvered Sony in terms of the Immersion rumble patent as a sole indicator of their dream of Microsoft bowing out of the console race... the whole idea of less competition being better is laughable.

I get some people don't like Microsoft and frankly I don't "like" them myself, but I don't go around preaching the death of competition is a "good" thing. Like Sony would be trying as hard as they are now without the touch up the PS3 had last generation...

Then get better competition. Sega's been replaced, & Microsoft can be replaced, too.

 

[ComaPrison]

Microsoft is winning the next gen turkey shoot. Sony is getting slaughtered. Even the WiiU is going to bone the Xbone in the butt.

 

[Servbot24]

MS has been in third place every time. As long as they're profitable and reasonably competitive, they'll probably just keep going at it.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's over for MS this gen. Not even worth arguing over, it's a done deal.

 

[grosvenor_92]

Probably in a few years if the PS4 is still outselling the xbone by a lot. It's still really early in this gen so who knows what could happen.

 

[Orca]

This conversation seems a bit premature, no?

Look at the thread start date if you think NOW is premature.

 

[ayoitsbruce]

price drops and free fames wasnt enough already

 

[Zetta]

E3 will gives us a better idea how they're going to pan out. Right now though after this month, its looking bad. I understand they sold quite a few consoles but theres no game in sight for the next couple of months that could help them. I may be wrong and I wish I am, but its not looking pretty for the X1.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Do these companies make money? Is this a business worth keeping?

Anyone know the numbers?

Xbox's earnings are always rolled into that group -- with the Zune and the Surface, etc. So as an outsider, it's hard to say how much money the Xbox division alone makes, what with being drug down by the aforementioned money losers.

Still, I'd wager to say whatever Xbox makes in profit is a drop in the bucket compared to MS's other divisions such as enterprise servers, Office and the like. You have to assume, relatively speakig, the same is true for Sony & PlayStation.

I would have to say, if it were not for MS & Sony getting into the "multi-media" biz last gen with movie and music rentals and the easy money that generates for said platform holders, perhaps this console business would not even be worth it.

 

[orochi91]

Winning this console generation through market share is out of the question for MS,
as I expect Sony to match of exceed any gains they attempt to make in NA. Outside
of NA, it's all Sony.

The best thing for MS to do is focus on profitability through software. I'm sure they
can still make killing through the revenue generated by their services and games.

 

[Metalingus5150]

This conversation seems a bit premature, no?

Titanfall couldn't help the Xbone outsell the PS4 in the US, Microsoft's most important market. When the date this thread was posted, it was a bit premature, after March I think this is worth discussing.

 

[orochi91]

This conversation seems a bit premature, no?

Nah, it's pretty appropriate since MS has no release of significance for several months
to come. It's only going to get worse. They ought to nip this situation in the bud before
it snowballs into something bigger.

 

[Biker19]

Do these companies make money? Is this a business worth keeping?

Anyone know the numbers?

Xbox's earnings are always rolled into that group -- with the Zune and the Surface, etc. So as an outsider, it's hard to say how much money the Xbox division alone makes, what with being drug down by the aforementioned money losers.

Still, I'd wager to say whatever Xbox makes in profit is a drop in the bucket compared to MS's other divisions such as enterprise servers, Office and the like. You have to assume, relatively speakig, the same is true for Sony & PlayStation.

I would have to say, if it were not for MS & Sony getting into the "multi-media" biz last gen with movie and music rentals and the easy money that generates for said platform holders, perhaps this console business would not even be worth it.

If anything, Playstation is one of Sony's main markets in which it's one of their most successful products, unlike Microsoft with Xbox. That's one of the reasons why they're not giving up on it.

Also, the Playstation brand has never been in the red as a whole, unlike the Xbox brand.

 

[jryi]

I think its cute that some peoples brains tick over and actually reason that fewer competing companies is somehow a better thing.

If there was only one platform (or one platform so dominant, that it makes competing platforms basically a non-factor), the publishers and studios would still have to compete on quality of games. No money or energy would be wasted on competition between platforms, the focus would be solely on studios trying to make their games better than competition. Gamers would not have to worry about owning multiple consoles and on which platform should they purchase any given game so they could play with their friends.

 

[Dragonborn]

If anything, Playstation is one of Sony's main markets in which it's one of their most successful products, unlike Microsoft with Xbox. That's one of the reasons why they're not giving up on it.

Precisely why all the MS is loaded but Sony broke comments hold little weight and are based on a complete lack of understanding what these companies do

 

[rokkerkory]

bring on the drastic MS, bring it on

 

[todd360]

bring on the drastic MS, bring it on

I'm imagining them announcing a no kinect sku at e3 and receiving cheers that rival ps4s 400 dollar price announcement. Then I imagine the guy on stage being like what! Why is everyone so hyped! This is a minor announcement, plus kinect is boss.

 

[Freeman]

For a company like MS Xbox looks like a big waste of time, resources and focus. They should have never entered the console market like they did. Their approach should have been exactly like what Valve is doing with SteamMachines. MS should have tried to make PC/Windows work in the living room, instead they turned their back on PC just to get outplayed by Valve, with little to show on the console front.

They are completely out of touch, keeping content away from other platforms as if this was providing any benefits to their consumes, Xbox Live and its pay-wall, their failed attempt to make draconian DRM the norm, their horrible PR that treats everyone as if they are stupid, blatantly trying to spin things or outright lying, nickel-and-diming their consumes every way they can, all that combined with their terrible vision of what a console should be is the reason I'll never support them again and the reason they will never dominate a generation.

 

[scytheavatar]

You guys are only equating console sales to winning or losing. Software sales is what makes the money .. As long as either company has strong software sales I doubt either could care about who has the largest user base.


Then again this is exactly what I said last gen this time when the ps3 was having a rough time.

Both Microsoft and Sony are in the console gaming business only because of the idea of game consoles becoming more than just about video games and leading them to dominance in the living room. An idea which Microsoft is emphasizing for the XboxOne. Once that idea becomes a pipe dream both companies will be looking at jumping ship and exiting the console business.

 

[Biker19]

Both Microsoft and Sony are in the console gaming business only because of the idea of game consoles becoming more than just about video games and leading them to dominance in the living room. An idea which Microsoft is emphasizing for the Xbox One. Once that idea becomes a pipe dream both companies will be looking at jumping ship and exiting the console business.

The living room has already been taken over by many companies in the form of streaming, on devices like Roku's, Apple TV's, Tablets, Mobile, etc.

That's why Sony saw that the writing was on the wall & made the PS4 as a gaming machine in mind first, with entertainment/media being secondary, while with Microsoft, they foolishly made Xbox One as a entertainment/media machine in mind first, with gaming being secondary, thinking that they could still take over the living room when the battle for it was already over & done with.

The specs between the two consoles says it all.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

I'm more interested in how the board reacts than how E&D reacts.

The original Xbox plan was to conceived counter Sony's push to capture the living room with the PS2. Then, as now, the Windows and Office monopolies were MSFT's lifeline, and all steps had to be taken to defend and entrench them.

Now, 3 console generations later, Xbox has done nothing but lose money. Apologists tout Live subscriptions as some sort of offset, but even in the fantasy land where Live subscriptions are income streams and not revenue streams as they actually are, they are still at best limited to a 5-7 year period. It is not sound financial planning to exchange billions in hardware design, manufacturing and distribution for them.

It would be strategically worthwhile if the Xbox was functioning as intended to preserve the erosion of the Windows and Office monopolies, but they are being assailed from an entirely different direction by mobile devices, and are losing marketshare and mindshare independently of anything that transpires in the videogames industry.

With this in mind, will the board consider the Xbox project worthwhile to continue it into a 4th iteration? We already know that Elop is less than enthused about the division. I'm curious to see what will happen next-gen.

 

[Game Guru]

Precisely why all the MS is loaded but Sony broke comments hold little weight and are based on a complete lack of understanding what these companies do

Yeah, of the three companies, MS is the only one who doesn't depend on the console and handheld gaming industry and who has lost money for most of it. Nintendo, until recently, has been very good at making money of both consoles and handhelds, and Sony was only losing money off of the PS3. While both Nintendo and Sony are much lesser companies than MS is, they also depend on video games much more than MS ever will, and so won't give that up unless they are forced to like Sega was.

 

[RealityPales]

Look at the thread start date if you think NOW is premature.

lol valid point.

 

[Naminator]

I'm more interested in how the board reacts than how E&D reacts.

The original Xbox plan was to conceived counter Sony's push to capture the living room with the PS2. Then, as now, the Windows and Office monopolies were MSFT's lifeline, and all steps had to be taken to defend and entrench them.

Now, 3 console generations later, Xbox has done nothing but lose money. Apologists tout Live subscriptions as some sort of offset, but even in the fantasy land where Live subscriptions are income streams and not revenue streams as they actually are, they are still at best limited to a 5-7 year period. It is not sound financial planning to exchange billions in hardware design, manufacturing and distribution for them.

It would be strategically worthwhile if the Xbox was functioning as intended to preserve the erosion of the Windows and Office monopolies, but they are being assailed from an entirely different direction by mobile devices, and are losing marketshare and mindshare independently of anything that transpires in the videogames industry.

With this in mind, will the board consider the Xbox project worthwhile to continue it into a 4th iteration? We already know that Elop is less than enthused about the division. I'm curious to see what will happen next-gen.

Some people just wont let this go.

Microsoft axing the Xbox brand/division is a fantasy dude, get over it.

 

[Schweinehund]

Companies are always reacting, believe it or not.

I think XB1 is doing solid in the games department, they just need to work on having an attractive price point and offering more services (that aren't behind a paywall).

 

[Sayter]

Wow, I just realized I necrobumped this thread. I have absolutely zero ideas how I might've gotten here, but I only realize this now. It's 4am and I should really be sleeping. I'll gladly respond to any responses tomorrow given the thread isn't locked by then.

Drunk thread?

 

[Synth]

Then get better competition. Sega's been replaced, & Microsoft can be replaced, too.

Sega's hardly been replaced by better competition if you ask me. So I'm a little unconvinced that Microsoft would be either.

 

[EGOMON]

If 360 with all its advantages couldn't win last gen vs PS3, i can't understand how people still think XBO somehow will be a worldwide brand and beats PS4.
Am 100% sure XBO will be profitable for MS and will enjoy 3rd party supports and am 100% sure PS4 will win this generation.

 

[Mar Nosso]

Then get better competition. Sega's been replaced, & Microsoft can be replaced, too.

SEGA has NOT been replaced. You need only compare the one year and a half period of game production from SEGA during the Dreamcast era to anything Microsoft has done over 3 generations of consoles and still it wouldn't be able to replace it. No matter how many Halos you throw at it.

 

[Biker19]

Some people just wont let this go.

Microsoft axing the Xbox brand/division is a fantasy dude, get over it.

It's no fantasy. If Xbox One either doesn't perform up to investors standards in total hardware sales & in profits, or if Microsoft takes huge losses off of each console sold once again like with the 2001-2007 years, we could see their investors talking about either spinning off the Xbox brand into it's own division, or getting rid of it within a few years.

They're not going to continue to pour money into the Xbox brand when it's not making back a big return in profit for them. But keep believing their PR speak.

Sega's hardly been replaced by better competition if you ask me. So I'm a little unconvinced that Microsoft would be either.

SEGA has NOT been replaced. You need only compare the one year and a half period of game production from SEGA during the Dreamcast era to anything Microsoft has done over 3 generations of consoles and still it wouldn't be able to replace it. No matter how many Halos you throw at it.

I do have to agree with you both there. At least Sega has made great games back in the day, & I would rather have them back in the gaming industry doing hardware.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

MS has been in third place every time. As long as they're profitable and reasonably competitive, they'll probably just keep going at it.

Haven't they still not made the money back on the original Xbox?

 

[artist]

Then get better competition. Sega's been replaced, & Microsoft can be replaced, too.

Yes, Microsoft needs to be replaced.

 

[LAA]

Will be interesting to see how/if they react, but I think it's too soon for them to accept they're losing at this early stage.

I think MS have started badly though and I think personally they have a lot to do to make it right. Some people won't care either way though and it's a possibility MS will pretend they never did anything wrong in the first place, which is most likely at this point, but if they can be the "big man" and admit their mistakes, I'd have more respect for them.

 

[EGM1966]

Some people just wont let this go.

Microsoft axing the Xbox brand/division is a fantasy dude, get over it.

While I don't think they will axe the division/brand it's far from a fantasy.

Big companies drop seemingly big initiatives all the time if it seems the right thing to do - and it's not actually hard to see reasons why MS should or would consider dropping Xbox brand : one reason alone is that since the advent of tablets/smart phones/smart TVs the whole idea of "owning the living room" and defending their position is arguably moot - i.e. what purpose does the Xbox initiative even serve for MS while they are sitting missing out on a now far more important market the OS for mobile devices and the App Store for mobile devices.

Like I said it seems very unlikely currently MS would drop it but let's not pretend its 100% impossible - a quick look at all the past initiatives MS has dropped after sinking huge sums makes this abundantly clear.

It's possible and currently it's probably more likely that MS would drop game console efforts before Sony would simply because of their true relative importance to each company's overall portfolio and market position.

Not 'gonna happen though unless XB1 truly sinks by January 2015 and the board changes the company strategy.

 

[iMax]

I don't remember Sony admitting defeat to Microsoft last gen. Or Microsoft admitting defeat to Nintendo.

Bloody fanboys and their cyclical superiority/inferiority complex. Just enjoy the games. If there wasn't any competition, you wouldn't have what you have now.

 

[jem0208]

You guys are only equating console sales to winning or losing. Software sales is what makes the money .. As long as either company has strong software sales I doubt either could care about who has the largest user base.


Then again this is exactly what I said last gen this time when the ps3 was having a rough time.

Well they're both doing pretty well it that regard.

They both have an attach rate of about 2.9 which is reasonably solid.

 

[zebwinz]

You guys are only equating console sales to winning or losing. Software sales is what makes the money .. As long as either company has strong software sales I doubt either could care about who has the largest user base.


Then again this is exactly what I said last gen this time when the ps3 was having a rough time.

Yup, and both Sony and Microsoft have a 2.9 game per console attach rate

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I think MS has shown that they are willing to make immediate changes and drastic ones if they have to, which bodes well for them as a company but I honestly don't know what changes outside of ditching the Kinect for pricing parity they can really do at this point.

They don't have Bungie, they don't have a title like Gears of War on the horizon and they don't have comparable power to the PS4.

E3 is going to be huge for them just like last E3 was for Wii U. They have to show something that is the next BIG thing. Halo 5 isn't it nor Horizon 2 or Crackdown 3. They need something else. They may very well have it since I have always thought MS has done a far better job producing games that become a mainstream hit than Sony.

 

[0racle]

It all depends on how these numbers and figures are looked at.

Sure, they may be behind Sony in terms of console sales but this is only relevant if they are in the negative based on how much they have invested in the XBOX one.

I mean if sony was out of the picture, would Microsoft be happy with the current sales results of the XBOX one? There is no real win/loose in business if both companies are making money.

Yes there are goals, objectives and market share targets that are discussed on a daily basis over at Microsoft. But guess what? even if they are #1 and "winning" they would still try to figure out ways to "win" even more......generating more profit. This is the business world, this is constant improvement.

The real situation is if XBOX one is technically a "loss". They will always be chasing dollars and as long as the XBOX brand in of itself is bringing in income then the biggest changes we will see will be in the MSRP and the management group. That's it.

 

[Lothars]

They will try to money hat anything but it won't do anything and it will keep selling lower and lower.

 

[Scully Scully Scoo]

probably 10 years before nintendo react

 

[Deleted member 125677]

Meh, they're used to coming in second, I don't see much changing tbh

If they decide to eventually pull out of the console market at some point I think it'll be due to overall structural trends, not their relative position to Sony and Nintendo

 

[Bedameister]

Why would they bother if the PS4 sells better. The Xbox One sells pretty good right now, no matter how good Sony is doing. As long as the Xbox makes some profit MS will be happy and keep on supporting it. Once it's not profitable anymore they'll dump it.

 

[Chettlar]

I think MS has shown that they are willing to make immediate changes and drastic ones if they have to, which bodes well for them as a company but I honestly don't know what changes outside of ditching the Kinect for pricing parity they can really do at this point.

They don't have Bungie, they don't have a title like Gears of War on the horizon and they don't have comparable power to the PS4.

E3 is going to be huge for them just like last E3 was for Wii U. They have to show something that is the next BIG thing. Halo 5 isn't it nor Horizon 2 or Crackdown 3. They need something else. They may very well have it since I have always thought MS has done a far better job producing games that become a mainstream hit than Sony.

Apparantly something big is indeed coming. I mean, I'm skeptical, but Stinkles, in the off-topic thread insisted that there are going to be plenty of surprises, even if we think we know most of what's going on.

 

[mangochutney]

You guys are only equating console sales to winning or losing. Software sales is what makes the money .. As long as either company has strong software sales I doubt either could care about who has the largest user base.


Then again this is exactly what I said last gen this time when the ps3 was having a rough time.

Using words in the thread title like 'battle' does make it sound a bit dramatic, but really, that is what it is.

That's how business works. You have to be the best and beat your competition. And best in that sense is the most profit to your shareholders.

If your product is profitable then your objective is to gobble up as much market share as possible. So really, if you're lagging behind like MS are right now, especially so when you compare to the previous generation, then it is quite right to question when they need to react in order to reverse the trend and get some of their market share back.

You say consoles sales doesn't define winning or losing, software sales does - but if you aren't selling consoles, you're not going to be selling software.

For MS to be satisfied with current proceedings they would need to be seeing an increased tie ratio over last gen, or increased revenues per unit on those software sales. I have no idea how those compare to the past. And even then the shareholders would still like to see them increase console sales to then increase software sales on top of that.

To say otherwise is just naive.

Overall Xbox One isn't doing terrible, but they're behind where they should be from the business perspective, from a consumer perspective there is no drama right now.