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White Fragility Leads to White Violence: Why Conversations w/ White Ppl Fall Apart

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TBiddy

Member
Why would you be annoyed by the first? Is there a systemic issue of people trying to take away the rights of white guys with curly hair? Or police profiling them?

Because someone is making a stupid, uninformed generalization about me, based on my hair, my gender and my skincolor.

I'm not talking about the police or taking away rights from anyone. I'm saying, that making generalizations about someone based on their gender or skincolor (or their job, for that matter) is stupid.
 
Because someone is making a stupid, uninformed generalization about me, based on my hair, my gender and my skincolor.

I'm not talking about the police or taking away rights from anyone. I'm saying, that making generalizations about someone based on their gender or skincolor is stupid.

But... why would you care what one random person off the street thinks? It's not systemic enough to matter.
 
There was nothing offensive about that post. If you yourself aren't racist then the condemnation in the post doesn't apply to you. Get a grip.

I know. I just didn't want to go down that avenue. My post wasn't really going to produce anything constructive and would probably only end up with a mud slinging match.
 

marrec

Banned
This is likely to get me banned but it is being asked in good faith.

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain? There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege? It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice. None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

I think you're asking in good faith so I'll try to answer in good faith, though there's a lot to unpack here...

What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain?

First you have to take a birds eye view and ask yourself, "what empathetic responsibility do I have for anyone's pain and suffering?". You say you understand that people are hurting and that there is historical precedence and then follow that with a "but". However basic empathy for follow men should dictate that there need be no "but" afterwards. You see and understand pain and then choose instead to selfishly turn inwards rather than seek to help.

Second, you have to take a personal view and ask yourself "what responsibility do I personally have for the pain of black folks" and you may think that responsibility is 0. The thing about white supremacy is that it doesn't pick and choose who it benefits and who it harms. All white people are the beneficiary and all black people are harmed. Here's where it gets muddy though, white supremacy does not mean all white people have it easy. It, very simplistically, means all white people will benefit more in a situation than a black person in a similar situation. This is an undeniable fact of our American democracy, where Black people have been "free" for decades from slavery and Jim Crow but still have to deal with structures of white power put in place and maintained by those willing to leverage power against them. In 2016 it was harder for black people to vote than any time since the Civil Rights Act was passed, for example.

So you may be thinking, selfishly, what's all this got to do with me? Why should I care about the plight of the black people when I've got my own problems and the benefits of White Supremacy aren't having tangible effects on my life?

If empathy alone cannot sway you, then remember those power people leveraging white supremacy to maintain power? They're using you to do it. Underclass white folk have been used by the white power structure to maintain a stranglehold on power and keep money flowing into the pockets of the 1% rather than into your pocket and the pocket of your Black neighbor. They convince you that Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization so that you'll vote for stricter policing laws which allows further entrenching of white power and more money funneled into the Police Industrial Complex, they convince you that black people are lazy and don't deserve social welfare programs and so you'll vote for gutting of welfare programs that not only help you, but your Black neighbor, funneling more money into the pockets of those in power. They convince you that the American experience is one of suffering and struggle and that if individuals don't make it to the top it's because those individuals are failures and so you vote against free education for all and you and your Black neighbor are left floundering with dead end jobs because blue collar work is a thing of the past.

They want you to stay poor and malleable and most importantly afraid of black equality.

So, what personal responsibility do you have? A ton. Denial of white supremacy and continued voting against your own self interest. This doesn't mean you're racist, or even a bad person, you are just another victim of entrenched power except you've been given the benefit of a light at the end of your long, endless tunnel, and when the entrenched power holds you back they tell you that it's not their fault, but the fault of your Black neighbor and you believe it. You feel victimized not by the 1%, but by those who look differently from you, even though you're all suffering in the same malaise.

I don't know you so I can't say for sure that this is the case, but this is part of a plan that's been being implemented since long before you were born and will continue as long as we allow it.

There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege?

Not everyone who's preaching education is doing so from a position above you, this seems like a silly assumption but makes sense given your unconscious feelings of victimhood.

It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice.

You know where I said above that you're being convinced, falsely, that the thing holding you back from your American Dream is minorities? This excerpt is what convinced me. You're implying that the victims of white supremacy are actually somehow benefiting from it more than you. I suppose because of hiring practices and universities having a black person quota? No body without money and power benefits from a divided population. Minorities don't benefit when you suffer, and you don't benefit when they suffer. This isn't a zero sum game where whiteness is pitted against non-whiteness for scraps of power and money.

None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?

This is just silly. A few folks on here have taken shit too far every so often, there's no denying that, but you don't know these people and they don't know you.

You sit down with someone you feel hates you at a bar and have a beer with them and I guarantee yall'd get along just fine because in the end we're all humans. It's only when we're removed from face to face, constant contact with humanity that we allow ourselves become suspicious and distrusting of our fellow man. Take some some time to talk to these people you so distrust and try to get past your mistaken assumptions.

You're response is emblematic of the big problem of white supremacy in America. Powerful white people have convinced you and millions of others that any movement or legislation for minority equality is somehow hindering your progress. Which is where White Fragility and White Violence come from.
 

TBiddy

Member
But... why would you care what one random person off the street thinks? It's not systemic enough to matter.

Why shouldn't I care? If I stop caring about what uninformed shit people say, I'm no better than anyone else. Doesn't matter if it's systemic enough. You should never have to listen to someone making stupid generalizations about you, based on your gender or skin color.
 

Grizzo

Member
Somebody point this thread to Tomi Lahren because she still obviously doesn't get it (or, well, she already did and just acts like she never did)
 
Why shouldn't I care? If I stop caring about what uninformed shit people say, I'm no better than anyone else. Doesn't matter if it's systemic enough. You should never have to listen to someone making stupid generalizations about you, based on your gender or skin color.

I dunno just seems pretty dishonest to try and equate generalizations as being equal. Is it a stupid generalization? Absolutely. Does it matter? No, not at all.There is no threat to you because some random nobody on the street thinks curly haired white people are stupid. In fact lets just omit the curly haired part. You are not being actively turned down for a job because of your skin. You are not being profiled and incarcerated at a higher degree because of your skin. You are not being killed because of your white skin. IN fact you are benefiting from your white skin.

So I think as a white people I can suck it up and deal with generalizations that aren't getting me murdered. I don't feel attacked when people say "white people".
 

Dalibor68

Banned
I dunno just seems pretty dishonest to try and equate generalizations as being equal. Is it a stupid generalization? Absolutely. Does it matter? No, not at all.There is no threat to you because some random nobody on the street thinks curly haired white people are stupid. In fact lets just omit the curly haired part. You are not being actively turned down for a job because of your skin. You are not being profiled and incarcerated at a higher degree because of your skin. You are not being killed because of your white skin. IN fact you are benefiting from your white skin.

So I think as a white people I can suck it up and deal with generalizations that aren't getting me murdered. I don't feel attacked when people say "white people".

Again: how does a group of people facing worse issues make it okay for that group to generalize others? Having to face a lot of shit doesn't give you a free pass on being shitty (even if you argue to a lesser extent) to others yourself. I fail to see the logical connection.
 

TBiddy

Member
So I think as a white people I can suck it up and deal with generalizations that aren't getting me murdered. I don't feel attacked when people say "white people".

I'm not equating anything. I'm not saying that it's better or worse to generalize white people over black people. I'm saying it's shitty, no matter what.

I'm not going to just smile and nod, when someone claims that "white people are stupid" (or something like that). If you want to suck it up, be my guest, but just as white women shouldn't accept stuff like "white women are slutty", because it's idiotic to generalize like that, I'm not going to accept when someone is saying "white people are racist", because that's also an idiotic generalization.
 
I think you're asking in good faith so I'll try to answer in good faith, though there's a lot to unpack here...

BruinsMtB: "What responsibility do I have to this? I understand that a lot of people are hurting, and there is a historical precedence for their pain, but why is there the expectation that people will let this supersede their own pain?"

First you have to take a birds eye view and ask yourself, "what empathetic responsibility do I have for anyone's pain and suffering?". You say you understand that people are hurting and that there is historical precedence and then follow that with a "but". However basic empathy for follow men should dictate that there need be no "but" afterwards. You see and understand pain and then choose instead to selfishly turn inwards rather than seek to help.

Second, you have to take a personal view and ask yourself "what responsibility do I personally have for the pain of black folks" and you may think that responsibility is 0. The thing about white supremacy is that it doesn't pick and choose who it benefits and who it harms. All white people are the beneficiary and all black people are harmed. Here's where it gets muddy though, white supremacy does not mean all white people have it easy. It, very simplistically, means all white people will benefit more in a situation than a black person in a similar situation. This is an undeniable fact of our American democracy, where Black people have been "free" for decades from slavery and Jim Crow but still have to deal with structures of white power put in place and maintained by those willing to leverage power against them. In 2016 it was harder for black people to vote than any time since the Civil Rights Act was passed, for example.

So you may be thinking, selfishly, what's all this got to do with me? Why should I care about the plight of the black people when I've got my own problems and the benefits of White Supremacy aren't having tangible effects on my life?

If empathy alone cannot sway you, then remember those power people leveraging white supremacy to maintain power? They're using you to do it. Underclass white folk have been used by the white power structure to maintain a stranglehold on power and keep money flowing into the pockets of the 1% rather than into your pocket and the pocket of your Black neighbor. They convince you that Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization so that you'll vote for stricter policing laws which allows further entrenching of white power and more money funneled into the Police Industrial Complex, they convince you that black people are lazy and don't deserve social welfare programs and so you'll vote for gutting of welfare programs that not only help you, but your Black neighbor, funneling more money into the pockets of those in power. They convince you that the American experience is one of suffering and struggle and that if individuals don't make it to the top it's because those individuals are failures and so you vote against free education for all and you and your Black neighbor are left floundering with dead end jobs because blue collar work is a thing of the past.

They want you to stay poor and malleable and most importantly afraid of black equality.

So, what personal responsibility do you have? A ton. Denial of white supremacy and continued voting against your own self interest. This doesn't mean you're racist, or even a bad person, you are just another victim of entrenched power except you've been given the benefit of a light at the end of your long, endless tunnel, and when the entrenched power holds you back they tell you that it's not their fault, but the fault of your Black neighbor and you believe it. You feel victimized not by the 1%, but by those who look differently from you, even though you're all suffering in the same malaise.


I don't know you so I can't say for sure that this is the case, but this is part of a plan that's been being implemented since long before you were born and will continue as long as we allow it.

BruinsMtB: "There's a lot of talk about people educating themselves and learning how to be an effective ally. Do you realize the luxury you all have in your educations, careers and socioeconomic standing to be able to wax poetic about inequality and white privilege?"

Not everyone who's preaching education is doing so from a position above you, this seems like a silly assumption but makes sense given your unconscious feelings of victimhood.

BruinsMtB: "It seems very convenient to me that the people who are the loudest about condemning the self-interest of a vulnerable population are those of you who have benefited the most from the system you are demonizing. It must be nice."

You know where I said above that you're being convinced, falsely, that the thing holding you back from your American Dream is minorities? This excerpt is what convinced me. You're implying that the victims of white supremacy are actually somehow benefiting from it more than you. I suppose because of hiring practices and universities having a black person quota? No body without money and power benefits from a divided population. Minorities don't benefit when you suffer, and you don't benefit when they suffer. This isn't a zero sum game where whiteness is pitted against non-whiteness for scraps of power and money.

BruinsMtB: "None of you even like me or my people. This forum has people wishing for their deaths, and I have a moral obligation to attend to your needs?"

This is just silly. A few folks on here have taken shit too far every so often, there's no denying that, but you don't know these people and they don't know you.

You sit down with someone you feel hates you at a bar and have a beer with them and I guarantee yall'd get along just fine because in the end we're all humans. It's only when we're removed from face to face, constant contact with humanity that we allow ourselves become suspicious and distrusting of our fellow man. Take some some time to talk to these people you so distrust and try to get past your mistaken assumptions.

You're response is emblematic of the big problem of white supremacy in America. Powerful white people have convinced you and millions of others that any movement or legislation for minority equality is somehow hindering your progress. Which is where White Fragility and White Violence come from.

Excellent post. Nothing much to add, other than more people should read it. We had that other thread about white people in Kentucky who are covered for healthcare because of the Affordable Care Act (aka "Obamacare") thanks to one Obamacare lady, but when it came to voting for Trump, they voted against their own interest in being covered for healthcare. They were tricked into thinking Republicans would come up with a replacement, when their main goal is to take it away first and foremost. Republicans are still scrambling to come up with a replacement, because they now realise they can't have 20 million people out of coverage. Because they care more about the middle and upper class than the poor or working class, so they didn't think about the uninsured of which many are white.
 
I'm not equating anything. I'm not saying that it's better or worse to generalize white people over black people. I'm saying it's shitty, no matter what.

I'm not going to just smile and nod, when someone claims that "white people are stupid" (or something like that). If you want to suck it up, be my guest, but just as white women shouldn't accept stuff like "white women are slutty", because it's idiotic to generalize like that, I'm not going to accept when someone is saying "white people are racist", because that's also an idiotic generalization.

It is shitty but at the same time you shouldn't get too offended at it because it's a punch up as you are higher on the power dynamic. Your example with white women isn't exactly the same as it's a punch down as the insult is dealing with the female gender. It's the same reason why Donald Trump is thin skinned for getting mad at comedians for making fun of him because he is at the top of the top when it comes to a power dynamic scale. It's something to always keep in mind when thinking about if you should be offended at something is whether or not the person is punching up,down or straight into your face.
 
Because someone is making a stupid, uninformed generalization about me, based on my hair, my gender and my skincolor.

I'm not talking about the police or taking away rights from anyone. I'm saying, that making generalizations about someone based on their gender or skincolor (or their job, for that matter) is stupid.
It's cute that you think what PoC typically call "caution" is equated with generalizations. I'm sorry, but after you've become accustomed to being berated and assaulted because of your race and forced to change your hair for a more "professional" look in your career, then it's not the same thing at all. I never discuss issues of race or politics with someone White until they show me that they're woke, simply because I'm not going to go through the same notions of being called "one of the good ones" and thinking that it's okay for them to use me as the example in my race to degrade other PoC.
 

TBiddy

Member
It is shitty but at the same time you shouldn't get too offended at it because it's a punch up as you are higher on the power dynamic. Your example with white women isn't exactly the same as it's a punch down as the insult is dealing with the female gender. It's the same reason why Donald Trump is thin skinned for getting mad at comedians for making fun of him because he is at the top of the top when it comes to a power dynamic scale. It's something to always keep in mind when thinking about if you should be offended at something is whether or not the person is punching up,down or straight into your face.

I've never bought the premise, that as long as you're punching up, it's all good. Why do I, just because I'm white, have to accept generalizations about me, just because they are made by someone "punching up"? What if it's a white guy saying that "white people suck"? They aren't "punching up", but rather straight then.

It's cute that you think what PoC typically call "caution" is equated with generalizations. I'm sorry, but after you've become accustomed to being berated and assaulted because of your race and forced to change your hair for a more "professional" look in your career, then it's not the same thing at all. I never discuss issues of race or politics with someone White until they show me that they're woke, simply because I'm not going to go through the same notions of being called "one of the good ones" and thinking that it's okay for them to use me as the example in my race to degrade other PoC.

I'm sorry - I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. It's not meant in a negative way, but I'm really confused about your post. "Woke"? "One of the good ones"? Who's using you as an example?
 

Dalibor68

Banned
It is shitty but at the same time you shouldn't get too offended at it because it's a punch up as you are higher on the power dynamic. Your example with white women isn't exactly the same as it's a punch down as the insult is dealing with the female gender. It's the same reason why Donald Trump is thin skinned for getting mad at comedians for making fun of him because he is at the top of the top when it comes to a power dynamic scale. It's something to always keep in mind when thinking about if you should be offended at something is whether or not the person is punching up,down or straight into your face.

That frankly sounds like a concept made-up by people to rationalize having a free reign at being assholes. Also inherently antagonizing.
 

marrec

Banned
I've never bought the premise, that as long as you're punching up, it's all good. Why do I, just because I'm white, have to accept generalizations about me, just because they are made by someone "punching up"? What if it's a white guy saying that "white people suck"? They aren't "punching up", but rather straight then.

I've always disliked the language of "punching up" and "punching down" as well. I feel like people use it as an excuse to be generally shitty anonymously on the internet. (Then again, what DON'T people use as an excuse to be shitty?)

However the idea behind it makes a lot more sense. Given historical understanding, you can be a bit more forgiving of someone lashing out if they've been treated poorly their entire lives. It's not a matter of "punch up = okay" but instead you have to take it in context.

Sometimes that context allows you to tell them to fuck off, sometimes you should take a step back and try to understand their resentment and anger and how it isn't directed at you specifically but comes from frustration and hopelessness.
 
That frankly sounds like a concept made-up by people to rationalize having a free reign at being assholes. Also inherently antagonizing.

This redefining of racism is part of the problem. If you're discriminating of or prejudiced towards someone else because of the colour of their skin you're a racist.
 
That frankly sounds like a concept made-up by people to rationalize having a free reign at being assholes. Also inherently antagonizing.

I`m not saying you can't complain to the person but it's best to do it calmly it's why people made fun of bo bice he responded to the siutation with anger and extravagence instead of with rationality.
 
I'm sorry - I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. It's not meant in a negative way, but I'm really confused about your post. "Woke"? "One of the good ones"? Who's using you as an example?
Woke basically means you're aware about issues relating to race, bigotry, and social injustice. You're already awake. It was first used by Erykah Badu in a song, and then blew up in popularity after Ferguson. Here's a rundown of the term.

One of the good ones is a racist way of (usually) white people calling out a certain minority person as one of the good ones who doesn't act like the stereotypes while denigrating the rest of the group.
 
I'm not equating anything. I'm not saying that it's better or worse to generalize white people over black people. I'm saying it's shitty, no matter what.

I'm not going to just smile and nod, when someone claims that "white people are stupid" (or something like that). If you want to suck it up, be my guest, but just as white women shouldn't accept stuff like "white women are slutty", because it's idiotic to generalize like that, I'm not going to accept when someone is saying "white people are racist", because that's also an idiotic generalization.

I wouldn't say that you have to accept those generalizations or otherwise you are a fragile whitey, because I agree those are idiotic. The example in the article about the police officer that got triggered by having BlackLivesMatter on his donuts is more on point because he sounds like a snowflake with a victim complex
 

TBiddy

Member
Woke basically means you're aware about issues relating to race, bigotry, and social injustice. You're already awake. It was first used by Erykah Badu in a song, and then blew up in popularity after Ferguson. Here's a rundown of the term.

One of the good ones is a racist way of (usually) white people calling out a certain minority person as one of the good ones who doesn't act like the stereotypes while denigrating the rest of the group.

I feel old. I've never heard of those terms. Guess it's not really widespread in Europe.

I wouldn't say that you have to accept those generalizations or otherwise you are a fragile whitey, because I agree those are idiotic. The example in the article about the police officer that got triggered by having BlackLivesMatter on his donuts is more on point because he sounds like a snowflake with a victim complex

I agree. The person who wrote "BLM" on the donut box got exactly what they wanted - the satisfaction, that someone got pissed off about such a little thing. It's just real life trolling and the officer fell right into the trap. He could've just laughed at it, along with his buddies down at the station.
 
I feel old. I've never heard of those terms. Guess it's not really widespread in Europe.



I agree. The person who wrote "BLM" on the donut box got exactly what they wanted. It's just real life trolling.

You're not old, you just probably don't hang around in different circles than your own. Or aren't on social media.
 

Guevara

Member
Cherry picking one quote:

”It's because [white people] think they are victims in a country where they have never been victims," he said. ”I think there's a deep-seated guilt in white America. The resentful insistence that white people in contemporary America have nothing to feel guilty about. Contemporary structures of white supremacy remain from which people draw a series of benefits. White people deny these things, and yet know that they are true."
Two comments:

1. I actually don't think most white people feel any guilt at all. Sure, there's a certain kind of hip, young, socially-aware white person who probably does. But just as we had a thread about yesterday, a whole lot of white people think they have actually been marginalized 'in their own country' and are now secondary to women/poc/immigrants, etc. Between these two extremes you have a wide range of white people who would probably sheepishly admit that being white is great and definitely 'better,' but don't feel any guilt about it. We didn't start the fire.

2. White people have been victims in this country, and continue to be victimized. Just, race isn't the driver; class and status are. White working class and middle class people can recognize they are slowly being screwed economically. They know they are consistently worse off than their parents, they know their future is probably dire. White people are largely blaming the wrong reasons, however. To say white people "have never" been victims in this country is wrong, and sounds an awful lot like "white people have no problems." And that's really dangerous because when white people feel unheard they can very quickly drag down the whole enterprise.
 
I agree that a lot of white people get way too sensitive over these issues and that we as a people are privlidged as fuck in a variety of ways over what minorities face in this country.

Now with that said, I think a lot of people (on both sides) forget that empathy is most effective when it's a two way street. Now I get the consequences of the dominant group not having empathy are far more dire and severe than the same going for the less dominant group. But at the same time, everyone has problems, and everyone's problems seem important and big to them. You're almost always going to have a hard time getting the other side to understand and listen to your problems if you don't try to listen back and understand theirs. And understanding doesn't mean agreeing in all cases, but it's hard to get others to care about your problems, no matter how severe, when you don't try to understand theirs as well. Because to pretty much any given person, the problems that are most immediate and real to them are going to be the ones facing themselves
 
Interesting Article. It raises some valid points, but it misses something and that bothers me.

If you critique something, a lot of the time it can feel like an attack. If it is good, well structured, criticism can help improve things like art, or even an individual.

However no one likes being lumped. Because even if you do present a good point and that person even accepts it, they can't do anything about it. Because you meant the group. You make it more difficult for people to accept it and you even make it easier for them to deflect it. This is even more true, when the individual has not done what others of that same category have done.

There is white guilt for what has happened. However generalization never help anyone.

The problem with white people, is the same as if someone said the problem with Jews, Catholics, Mexicans, Blacks, ect...

If you want to engage in a conversation about race, you need to keep to specifics. Not all cops are racist, but that cop who killed a black guy who was unarmed and placed a gun on him, probably was.

I think white people want to go back to the days where they were judged as an individual and not as a whole. They're finally feeling what it is like for minorities everyday.

It used to be where if I fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez NobleXenon, you really suck at math!" whereas if a Sally Sue fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez Sally Sue, women suck at math."

White people are being brought down to the same playing field everyone one else is forced to play.
 

Formless

Member
In general I've seen a lot of people who've never had to seriously deal with race/identity overreact to things like this (obviously, most people of color deal with this by default).

For example, an Asian person who grew up in a very safe/nice/diverse area was complaining about the most racist thing he'd experienced -- being assumed to be Chinese. He was pretty serious about this whereas this was the kind of shit that I dealt with in kindergarten.
 
The amount of mental gymnastics that some people jump through to paint BLM as a terrorist/violence movement is appalling.

It's in the fucking name. BLACK. LIVES. MATTER. And you still can't utter the words without some dumbasses going insane.
Amen. I mean wtf at that cop's reaction. His reaction should've been, "damn straight black lives matter and I'm going to make sure I do my part to uphold their civil liberties and safety." Instead, projected guilt right out the ass.
 

Skilletor

Member
2. White people have been victims in this country, and continue to be victimized. Just, race isn't the driver; class and status are. White working class and middle class people can recognize they are slowly being screwed economically. They know they are consistently worse off than their parents, they know their future is probably dire. White people are largely blaming the wrong reasons, however. To say white people "have never" been victims in this country is wrong, and sounds an awful lot like "white people have no problems." And that's really dangerous because when white people feel unheard they can very quickly drag down the whole enterprise.

This isn't exclusive to white people, so, no, "white people" aren't victimized. White people are still the default in this country and benefit from the systems put in place in america, even if they are on a lower socioeconomic status.

It isn't saying white people have no problems. It's saying that the problems you've mentioned are nowhere near exclusive to white people. White people still have the privilege of being white even if they're "being screwed economically."

Minorities are screwed over in the same way and have to deal with the systemic issues that are designed to oppress us.
 

Infinite

Member
On the topic of generalizations: saying something like the police force is racist isn't a generalization it's a fact. No that isn't exactly saying that all individual cops are racists but the institution of policing is and we have ample amount of studies available to safely draw that conclusion. Individual officers are apart of that institution. They are molded by it and they carry out the order of the day. If officers are fashioned by a racist institution that trains them to disregard black life then yes that makes them racist.
 
I think white people want to go back to the days where they were judged as an individual and not as a whole. They're finally feeling what it is like for minorities everyday.

It used to be where if I fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez NobleXenon, you really suck at math!" whereas if a Sally Sue fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez Sally Sue, women suck at math."

White people are being brought down to the same playing field everyone one else is forced to play.

I see your point, but I think you are missing it...

It shouldn't be "Geez Mark, white people can't jump." It should be "Geez Mark, you can't jump."

The idea is not be equally horrible too each other, but to treat each other with resepct.
 

BruinsMtB

Banned
You know where I said above that you're being convinced, falsely, that the thing holding you back from your American Dream is minorities? This excerpt is what convinced me. You're implying that the victims of white supremacy are actually somehow benefiting from it more than you. I suppose because of hiring practices and universities having a black person quota? No body without money and power benefits from a divided population. Minorities don't benefit when you suffer, and you don't benefit when they suffer. This isn't a zero sum game where whiteness is pitted against non-whiteness for scraps of power and money.

You're response is emblematic of the big problem of white supremacy in America. Powerful white people have convinced you and millions of others that any movement or legislation for minority equality is somehow hindering your progress. Which is where White Fragility and White Violence come from.

I was with you until this. To the first part, that's on me because I didn't specify, I was talking about mostly white liberal groups that have done everything they can to distance themselves from the lower classes of white. When you see people rage on television about the liberal elite, you're right, there's definitely a component of coaching involved to demonize the other and their access to education, but there's also a real class divide that exists and it often feels like people that had better opportunities are all too eager to condemn everyone else from their relative position of privilege. It's real tiring.

Another response to me last page mentioned my obligation is not to help anyone, but to stay out of the way so that good work can be done. That is how I live my life, to clarify, I struggle with the responsibility to aid portion, not that I am actively trying to combat equality. Again, my mistake for not elaborating more but it was very late and I was curious how people would respond to the moral angle. I have never voted Republican, I live in an extremely liberal state, my last job of three years I was the only white person. I don't live an obstructionist life. I don't live a segregated life and I'm not full of hate. I just wrestle with the idea that there could be any expectations of me being a part of this fight that I feel I have no dog in. I wrestle with the expectation of viewing all of these problems on a macro level. As a generality of my position of white as opposed to someone's position of black. A guy on this very page minimizes someone's feelings because they are not subject to systemic abuse. You expect someone to be able to consider the weight of institutionalized racism every time they have an emotional reaction? How do you hear that and still feel invested in something that seems to at best be indifferent to you and at worst feels contempt for you?
 
Cherry picking one quote:


Two comments:

1. I actually don't think most white people feel any guilt at all. Sure, there's a certain kind of hip, young, socially-aware white person who probably does. But just as we had a thread about yesterday, a whole lot of white people think they have actually been marginalized 'in their own country' and are now secondary to women/poc/immigrants, etc. Between these two extremes you have a wide range of white people who would probably sheepishly admit that being white is great and definitely 'better,' but don't feel any guilt about it. We didn't start the fire.

2. White people have been victims in this country, and continue to be victimized. Just, race isn't the driver; class and status are. White working class and middle class people can recognize they are slowly being screwed economically. They know they are consistently worse off than their parents, they know their future is probably dire. White people are largely blaming the wrong reasons, however. To say white people "have never" been victims in this country is wrong, and sounds an awful lot like "white people have no problems." And that's really dangerous because when white people feel unheard they can very quickly drag down the whole enterprise.

Specifically replying to the second paragraph.

I think the point there, is that middle class and working class is not a race thing. If anything, a higher percentage of minority populations are working or middle class than their white counterparts.

What I'm trying to say, is that the issues they face are not a white issue. The issues they have, are the exact same issues minorities have, but with basically none of the issues that stem from being a minority.

The other huge difference and the point the excerpt you were replying to was making, is that when it comes to race issues, there are huuuuge amounts of people who will straight up deny that being white grants them extra benefits as citizens.

On the other hand, there is not a single person who will deny that having more wealth and status is beneficial.

Being pissed off at the widely accepted notion that you're being screwed financially, is not the same level of struggle as just trying to get people to acknowledge that your struggle actually exists in the first place.

It's so different, that politicians will stand up and make entire presidential themes about finances and status, and acknowledge that people want more done, and go into minutiae and specific detail about how they're going to make it better for YOU. And argue till the last day of the election about who's plan is better for YOU.

Think about the last time a presidential nominees made scrubbing out institutional racism in all manner of details their platform, with people debating on all sides about how their plan is the best etc etc. We can't even get most politicians to come out and say institutionalised racism exists, let alone have entire platforms based on battling it.

So while I see what you're getting at, I hope you can see that it's not really the same.
 
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jph139

Member
The problem with criticism of white America as a whole is that, well, end of the day... they're the majority. They're the status quo. Like, you can come up on stage and write articles and all sorts of things saying "white people are too sensitive to criticism," but... like, no one is going to listen.

It's sort of self-defeating. You say they're to sensitive, and then - because they're too sensitive - they say "no we're not" and shut down to further criticism. Or it devolves into semantics about what "white people" or what "sensitive" means, as has happened in this thread.

But I guess that's sort of the point of the piece - it's not really going accomplish anything to even have those conversations. Better to just go past the white majority straight to legislature. Win the game of inches and ignore the miles ahead for now. Which isn't exactly inspiring but makes sense to me, at least.
 

akira28

Member
liberal, lives in a liberal area, surrounded by black folks. no dog in the fight.
well.

or rather the only reactions you can muster are indifference or contempt. Well. Holy Hell.

doesn't sound like an ally, more like a situation pending
 
The idea is not be equally horrible too each other, but to treat each other with resepct.

I'm sorry but anytime I see this being said, the discussion is lost. It may work for minor disagreements or petty arguments but when one side of the table has a lot of anger and animosity and the other side doesn't give enough fucks. The conversation fails. If you're more concerned about being offended than validating that person's anger. You need to get over that or step out of the way imo.

The problem is this false since of neutrality when at the start of the conversation there isn't anything to be neutral about. There isn't a "Well both sides are wrong" situation that most white people try to paint in racial conversations. When wrong has been done, the wronged person has every right to be upset and angry and yeah you will get some blowback. If you really care, validate. That's all you have to do. The respect in these conversations has be earned en masse. Its not something that's immediately on the table.
 
I'm sorry but anytime I see this being said, the discussion is lost. It may work for minor disagreements or petty arguments but when one side of the table has a lot of anger and animosity and the other side doesn't give enough fucks. The conversation fails. If you're more concerned about being offended than validating that person's anger. You need to get over that or step out of the way imo.

The problem is this false since of neutrality when at the start of the conversation there isn't anything to be neutral about. There isn't a "Well both sides are wrong" situation that most white people try to paint in racial conversations. When wrong has been done, the wronged person has every right to be upset and angry and yeah you will get some blowback. If you really care, validate. That's all you have to do. The respect in these conversations has be earned en masse. Its not something that's immediately on the table.

How did you get that at all?
 
Because I tire of seeing the words "respect, reaching across the table" and its ilk thrown out when its clearly not applicable.

My post was about the end game being equality for all.

You seem to have misread that for being "more concerned about being offended than validating that person's anger." I did not present it as both sides are wrong.

You make a good point about how idiotic it is to try and attempt this discussion from a neutral perspective, but you choose the wrong post to quote it.
 
My post was about the end game being equality for all.

You seem to have misread that for being "more concerned about being offended than validating that person's anger." I did not present it as both sides are wrong.

You make a good point about how idiotic it is to try and attempt this discussion from a neutral perspective, but you choose the wrong post to quote it.

Your post didn't read like that.

Either way it still needed to be said.
 
My post was about the end game being equality for all.

You seem to have misread that for being "more concerned about being offended than validating that person's anger." I did not present it as both sides are wrong.

You make a good point about how idiotic it is to try and attempt this discussion from a neutral perspective, but you choose the wrong post to quote it.
Not really you wanna jump to 'let's all be friends' when we haven't even addressed the problem yet
 

KingV

Member
I think white people want to go back to the days where they were judged as an individual and not as a whole. They're finally feeling what it is like for minorities everyday.

It used to be where if I fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez NobleXenon, you really suck at math!" whereas if a Sally Sue fucked up on a math problem, people would say, "Geez Sally Sue, women suck at math."

White people are being brought down to the same playing field everyone one else is forced to play.

And this is a good thing? We should try to see everybody as individuals instead of dragging white people down into some sort of equal opportunity stereotyping.

That said, this cop got off easy. We use to spit in cops food back in the day.
 

Future

Member
I do not agree:
You choose to become a cop or engage in a faith.
U don't choose to be born Black, white or LGBT.

If you cannot see a the parallel from choices like this and being offended by generalizations then you will never be able to talk about this problem with any empathy

Choices to be a cop or in a religion aren't things instantly changed on whim. And they are like any group you may choose to be in: you will be offended when there are generalizations made about them no matter if it was a chosen group or not

The sentiments in the OP are correct but I do think the conversation always takes a turn when people make light of making blanket generalizations of white people, cops or whatever...because it naturally sets off the same triggers that upset minorities or anyone else when generalizations are made. NO one likes being told what they are or what their people do, and defending it isn't investing in whiteness, blackness, or cop-ness but simply reacting to the negative association that's been implanted upon them through the generalization
 
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