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White Knight Chronicles: Pulse of the Ancients Released Dec 25

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
LiquidMetal14 said:
Some of you people criticise games here like they have to be this pillar of hope to be enjoyable. Rogue is yet another example of this. How is this game bad or hollow? Almost every game gets this treatment. Some people need to learn to accept games like they do people, with faults.
There's a difference between acknowledging the game's faults and playing on, and being blindly ignorant to the faults in order to appreciate the game whilst defending it to your last breath.

Just because I dislike Level 5's earlier output because of those faults does not mean I am stamping my authority and stating that other people should think the same way. Everyone is different in tastes and opinions. But that doesn't mean that other people should be saying "such-and-such game was almost perfect" whilst in the same sentence ridiculing any form of criticism towards that game when the evidence is clearly written on the wall that the game has its faults.

If anything I am looking forward to WKC because Level 5's recent output has shown that they can make really fun games. Inazuma is practically the beacon of hope because that game is more than awesome.
 

Aenima

Member
Level 5 is one of my fav RPG developers, lets see what i played from them...:

Dragon Quest VIII - Best jRPG in PS2
Dark Cloud - Good, got bored at the final boss fight after 30 minutes fighting then died.
Rogue Galaxy - Another one i enjoyed alot.
Jeanne D'Arc - Loved it.
 
Elios83 said:
Emmm Kaz is the CEO of all the company, he's not the software guy behind the japanese division although it is also his duty to watch over that. Most of the credit for the PS3 comeback worldwide after a really difficult situation last year goes to him.
But what you see today and I also mean the poor results from the japanese studios is the result of mistakes made two years ago when other people were in charge, it takes time to change things with game development, they could have done a complete 180 internally but the public wouldn't know until those new projects are ready to be showcased.

His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...
 

thuway

Member
AranhaHunter said:
His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...
Damn its hard to argue with that.

I'm still at a loss for words why they didn't acquire Squaresoft when they had the chance. Now their biggest strong point might become the largest thorn in their side.
 

Jonnyram

Member
AranhaHunter said:
His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...
Unfortunately, he has a budget, and I don't think it's enough for any of those things, thanks to the red ink prices that the board is having to pay every time they print their annual report.
 

gbovo

Member
AranhaHunter said:
His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...
He's only one man, plus he still has to deal with the hardware/publishing/licensing/legal/fiscal side of SCE so it would be impossible for only him to tackle all these issues. That is why Phil Harrison was put in charge of SCE WW software to handle all the issues you raised, unfortunately, it seems he was more successful at pushing SCEA/SCEE software development more so than SCEJ. Plus, Kaz is still reeling from the financial pit Kutatragi put SCE into with regards to PS3's R&D, and probably can't invest as much money into software ventures and developer acquisitions as he would like to.
 
Jonnyram said:
Unfortunately, he has a budget, and I don't think it's enough for any of those things, thanks to the red ink prices that the board is having to pay every time they print their annual report.
They had no troubles buying Evolution Studios in 2007, during the ps3's most troubled times.
 
AranhaHunter said:
His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...
SCEI is falling behind, from a sheer development stand point. Thus far all we've really gotten is GT5P, HSG5, Siren, Afrika, and a few second party games like Folklore. Outside of the full GT5 and some PSN games, I can't think of much else announced that has yet to be released, either.

We'll be getting an announcement from Team ICO next month (can't friggin' wait!), but where's Ape Escape, etc.? Or new IPs? SCEA and SCEE are really pulling away from SCEI this gen, whereas SCEI used to be the leaders during the ps1/2 days.

I guess they're all working on firmware or something. :/

Edit:

Hopefully Yushida will help bring SCEI up to par with the rest of SCEWWS. He's based in Japan, plus now they have plenty of incentive to do it, what with the need for JRPGs (the previous need for shooters, etc. was why the strengthened SCEA and SCEE over the past couple of years).
 

thuway

Member
makingmusic476 said:
SCEI is falling behind, from a sheer development stand point. Thus far all we've really gotten is GT5P, HSG5, Siren, Afrika, and a few second party games like Folklore. Outside of the full GT5and some PSN games, I can't think of much else announced that has yet to be released, either.

We'll be getting an announcement from Team ICO next month (can't friggin' wait!), but where's Ape Escape, etc.? Or new IPs? SCEA and SCEE are really pulling away from SCEI this gen, whereas SCEI used to be the leaders during the ps1/2 days.

I guess they're all working on firmware or something. :/

I remember talking to a dev at PAX about when voice messaging / chat would be available. He told me he couldn't comment, but he did know Japan was working furiously to bring things up to speed. I guess you could add Life with Playstation to that list.

Edit: My bad on HOME, he never implied that, I was purely speculating.
 

gbovo

Member
makingmusic476 said:
They had no troubles buying Evolution Studios in 2007, during the ps3's most troubled times.
To be fair, Evolution was a relatively cheap purchase for Sony (~$33 million which also included BigBig Studios as well). When you compare that to how much EA paid for Bioware+Pandemic (~$500+ million) and that fact that several PS3 games (GT5/KZ2?) cost more to develop than it cost for Sony to buy 2 studios (Evolution & BigBig Studios), i'd say they got a pretty good deal and the money was well spent.
 
thuway said:
I remember talking to a dev at PAX about when voice messaging / chat would be available. He told me he couldn't comment, but he did now Japan was working furiously to bring things up to speed. I guess you could add Life with Playstation and HOME to that list.
I believe Sony London is working on Home. It was pioneered by Phil and SCEE.
 

thuway

Member
Well Yoshida is a smart cookie. To his credit, the first party titles all seem to be of a decent quality and could insure massive revenue. The Gamecube did terrible in the sales rank, but the fact still remained that Nintendo walked away with a piggy bank filled with cashbah.

That said, Sony still needs to clamp down on Level 5, Koji Pro, or something else.
 
gbovo said:
To be fair, Evolution was a relatively cheap purchase for Sony (~$33 million which also included BigBig Studios as well). When you compare that to how much EA paid for Bioware+Pandemic (~$500+ million) and that fact that several PS3 games (GT5/KZ2?) cost more to develop than it cost for Sony to buy 2 studios (Evolution & BigBig Studios), i'd say they got a pretty good deal and the money was well spent.
Wow. That is cheap.

I wonder when we'll get an announcement about BigBig's next game.
 

gbovo

Member
makingmusic476 said:
SCEI is falling behind, from a sheer development stand point. Thus far all we've really gotten is GT5P, HSG5, Siren, Afrika, and a few second party games like Folklore. Outside of the full GT5 and some PSN games, I can't think of much else announced that has yet to be released, either.

We'll be getting an announcement from Team ICO next month (can't friggin' wait!), but where's Ape Escape, etc.? Or new IPs? SCEA and SCEE are really pulling away from SCEI this gen, whereas SCEI used to be the leaders during the ps1/2 days.

I guess they're all working on firmware or something. :/

Edit:

Hopefully Yushida will help bring SCEI up to par with the rest of SCEWWS. He's based in Japan, plus now they have plenty of incentive to do it, what with the need for JRPGs (the previous need for shooters, etc. was why the strengthened SCEA and SCEE over the past couple of years).
SCEI only really lead up untill halfway into the PS2 with 1st party software. Around 2005, it was very obvious that SCEA was the leader in 1st party software (SCEA alone released 8 PS2 titles in 2005-Socom 3, Jak X, Sly 3, Ratchet Deadlocked, God of War, Rise of the Kasai, MLB 06, NBA 06).
 

thuway

Member
Well to Sony's credit, in Japan they do have some decent exclusive / future offerings:

1. MGS4
2. White Knight Chronicles
3. Valkyria Chronicles Final Fantasy XIII
4. Team ICO

I still don't think thats enough, compared to MS.

Its still inexcusable to let Star Ocean 4 walk over to a competitor's console that has no history with the game. With ToV making the jump, Eternal Sonata coming a year and a half later, Cry-on about to be announced, and Infinite Undiscovery on the fringes of almost 100k sold, Sony better take notice that even the most die hard fans are wondering what the hell is going on.

Oh well, atleast PSP is ballin'.
 
thuway said:
Damn its hard to argue with that.

I'm still at a loss for words why they didn't acquire Squaresoft when they had the chance. Now their biggest strong point might become the largest thorn in their side.

They never had a chance to acquire all of Squaresoft, Square wanted to sell 19% of the company's shares and Sony bought it, I think if Square wanted to sell more, Sony would've bought more.

thuway said:
I remember talking to a dev at PAX about when voice messaging / chat would be available. He told me he couldn't comment, but he did now Japan was working furiously to bring things up to speed. I guess you could add Life with Playstation and HOME to that list.

Home is the London studio.

gbovo said:
To be fair, Evolution was a relatively cheap purchase for Sony (~$33 million which also included BigBig Studios as well). When you compare that to how much EA paid for Bioware+Pandemic (~$500+ million) and that fact that several PS3 games (GT5/KZ2?) cost more to develop than it cost for Sony to buy 2 studios (Evolution & BigBig Studios), i'd say they got a pretty good deal and the money was well spent.

Damn that was cheap, how much did they pay for ND, Guerrilla and Zipper?
 
gbovo said:
SCEI only really lead up untill halfway into the PS2 with 1st party software. Around 2005, it was very obvious that SCEA was the leader in 1st party software (SCEA alone released 8 PS2 titles in 2005-Socom 3, Jak X, Sly 3, Ratchet Deadlocked, God of War, Rise of the Kasai, MLB 06, NBA 06).
Well yeah, but now SCEA is REALLY putting them to shame, and they're even getting bested by SCEE, who has grown quite a bit through the acquisitions of Evolution and Guerrilla.

And, in my opinion at least, SCEI seems to be actually putting out less than ever before, but I suppose that could be because of staff being diverted to work on firmware.

But then again, programmers make up a pretty small part of actual game development, and firmware seems like it would require mostly programmers, so I can't see large portions of their SCEI studios being redirected toward firmware. Just some programmers here and there.

Who knows, maybe they're working on stuff that we just haven't seen yet...

*hopes*
 
gbovo said:
To be fair, Evolution was a relatively cheap purchase for Sony (~$33 million which also included BigBig Studios as well). When you compare that to how much EA paid for Bioware+Pandemic (~$500+ million) and that fact that several PS3 games (GT5/KZ2?) cost more to develop than it cost for Sony to buy 2 studios (Evolution & BigBig Studios), i'd say they got a pretty good deal and the money was well spent.

Well there are a couple of ways of looking at that. Many people believe that EA over paid for those 2 companies. They were also willing to pay 2 billion dollars for Take Two, and I don't think any other company would even think of paying that much for TT. Not because they couldn't afford it, but because TT isn't worth it. Another issue is that Sony grabbed Evo and BB relatively early in their lifespan, so they weren't going to cost Sony as much.
 

gbovo

Member
makingmusic476 said:
Wow. That is cheap.

I wonder when we'll get an announcement about BigBig's next game.
yeah. Pursuit Force Extreme Justice didn't do too well on PSP or PS2, so I hope they are either making a PSN version (with online multiplayer) or a totally new game (Most likely for PSN because they are a relatively small team). Although, I might be wrong and they may just make a retail PS3 title.
 
gbovo said:
yeah. Pursuit Force Extreme Justice didn't do too well on PSP or PS2, so I hope they are either making a PSN version (with online multiplayer) or a totally new game (Most likely for PSN because they are a relatively small team). Although, I might be wrong and they may just make a retail PS3 title.
Sony might make them full time PSP developers like Sony Bend.

And boy does the PSP need it.
 

gbovo

Member
AranhaHunter said:
They never had a chance to acquire all of Squaresoft, Square wanted to sell 19% of the company's shares and Sony bought it, I think if Square wanted to sell more, Sony would've bought more.



Home is the London studio.



Damn that was cheap, how much did they pay for ND, Guerrilla and Zipper?
Those figures were never released. The only reason I know about the price of Evolution was because a British media outlet ran a story about it.
 

gbovo

Member
SolidSnakex said:
Well there are a couple of ways of looking at that. Many people believe that EA over paid for those 2 companies. They were also willing to pay 2 billion dollars for Take Two, and I don't think any other company would even think of paying that much for TT. Not because they couldn't afford it, but because TT isn't worth it. Another issue is that Sony grabbed Evo and BB relatively early in their lifespan, so they weren't going to cost Sony as much.
Hence, the reason why I said it was a good deal.
PS. I love your avatar
 
gbovo said:
SCEI only really lead up untill halfway into the PS2 with 1st party software. Around 2005, it was very obvious that SCEA was the leader in 1st party software (SCEA alone released 8 PS2 titles in 2005-Socom 3, Jak X, Sly 3, Ratchet Deadlocked, God of War, Rise of the Kasai, MLB 06, NBA 06).

Yeah but at least they were releasing games back then, Shadow of The Collossus, Rogue Galaxy, Ape Escape 3, Wild Arms 4....2008 we get Siren remake and Hakuna fucking Matata


thuway said:
Well to Sony's credit, in Japan they do have some decent exclusive / future offerings:

1. MGS4
2. White Knight Chronicles
3. Valkyria Chronicles Final Fantasy XIII
4. Team ICO

I still don't think thats enough, compared to MS.

Its still inexcusable to let Star Ocean 4 walk over to a competitor's console that has no history with the game. With ToV making the jump, Eternal Sonata coming a year and a half later, Cry-on about to be announced, and Infinite Undiscovery on the fringes of almost 100k sold, Sony better take notice that even the most die hard fans are wondering what the hell is going on.

Oh well, atleast PSP is ballin'.

You forgot The Last Remnant time exclusivity to the 360 and letting Monster Hunter 3 become Monster Hunter Tri.
 
makingmusic476 said:
Sony might make them full time PSP developers like Sony Bend.

And boy does the PSP need it.

NO. I need my Syphon Filter next generation, the PSP iterations were excellent and they can revive the franchise with a good PS3 iteration.
 

gbovo

Member
AranhaHunter said:
Yeah but at least they were releasing games back then, Shadow of The Collossus, Rogue Galaxy, Ape Escape 3, Wild Arms 4....2008 we get Siren remake and Hakuna fucking Matata




You forgot The Last Remnant time exclusivity to the 360 and letting Monster Hunter 3 become Monster Hunter Tri.
:lol :lol
To be fair, it wouldn't be fair to compare the software output of a 1st party publisher 2 years into a console's life cycle, to the software output 5 years into a console's life cycle.
 
makingmusic476 said:
Sony might make them full time PSP developers like Sony Bend.

I don't really think that they're full time PSP developers. They've talked about having PS3 dev kits in their offices before.
 

thuway

Member
OceansAndEarth said:
I hope December 25th is not just the Japan release :(
Its in Sony's best interest to delay the game till around the Summer of 2009. The Fall is front loaded and has a few RPG titles (Disagaae 3, Valkyria Chronicles, and Eternal Sonata: Redux).
 

WYWY

Member
White Knight 's story center around the fantasies and royalty ,as we spoke of royalty, it is the hero to save the princess from the evil, fighting the evil to save the beloved princess ...:
Reading this makes me want to kill someone.

The usual rubbish Level-5 story-telling quality 90% confirmed.

Or maybe I'm just too old for adolescent fantasies. Or is this pre-adolescent?
 

thuway

Member
WYWY said:
Reading this makes me want to kill someone.

The usual rubbish Level-5 story-telling quality 90% confirmed.

Or maybe I'm just too old for adolescent fantasies. Or is this pre-adolescent?
Its a shoe-in for Dragon Quest. I don't blame them, if this game can garner that sort of notoriety, both parties will be pleased. It seems like like Level 5 and Sony are trying to accomplish meshing both -

1) Monster Hunter 3 with the Quest system and online co-op.

2) Dragon Quest for the usual story that works in Japan.

edit:

3) The Miyazaki school of insane character designs that will blow people away.
 

gbovo

Member
thuway said:
Its in Sony's best interest to delay the game till around the Summer of 2009. The Fall is front loaded and has a few RPG titles (Disagaae 3, Valkyria Chronicles, and Eternal Sonata: Redux).
Nah, if they released in April 2009, it would help bridge the software gap between KZ2 (Feb), RE5(March), and Infamous (rumored release in May).
 

Replicant

Member
WYWY said:
Reading this makes me want to kill someone.

The usual rubbish Level-5 story-telling quality 90% confirmed.

Or maybe I'm just too old for adolescent fantasies. Or is this pre-adolescent?

Huh? Saving a damsel-in-distress is a typical plot on many games then and still is these days. It's not just something that Level 5 does.
 

klee123

Member
gbovo said:
Nah, if they released in April 2009, it would help bridge the software gap between KZ2 (Feb), RE5(March), and Infamous (rumored release in May).

It doesn't really matter, you're comparing apples to oranges in terms of genre.

I really don't see a gamer who's keen on jrpgs would suddenly see both KZ2 and WKS released on the same month and have a hard time deciding.

If it was competing against say FFXIII then it would make sense.
 

gbovo

Member
klee123 said:
It doesn't really matter, you're comparing apples to oranges in terms of genre.

I really don't see a gamer who's a keen rpg gamer would suddenly see both KZ2 and WKS released on the same month and have a hard time deciding.

If it was competing against say FFXIII then it would make sense.
I was looking at it more from a marketing point of view. If KZ2 and WKC were released in different months (In the US/EU), then Sony could focus their marketting and gamers attention on each game, without having one overshadow the other, marketting-wise.
 

ltse1

Member
AranhaHunter said:
His job is to make sure the PS3 is supported and is having a diverse library of games from both 1st and 3rd party that caters to the japanese audience. He could've set up an internal JRPG studio, he could've talked about purchasing a JRPG studio, he could've secured a JRPG or 2 from 3rd parties by now, he could've localized casual games like Buzz and Singstar for the Japanese audience, there's a lot he could've done and as of right now SCEJ is behind SCEA and SCEE, heck it is not even that far ahead of SCEK...

Yes, creating internal studios are always an option, but finding the talent to fill out the team can be difficult. Sony's internal studios are already hard at work and I credit them for the great products they push out. If it were as easy as it sounded, Microsoft would've created many more internal studios.

As for securing third party exclusives, yes we could blame Sony for being arrogant due to the success of the PS2. However, it is a two-way agreement. Sony could've put a lot of the table for FFXIII exclusivity, but it's really up to S-E. Sony shouldn't be blamed because S-E sees an opportunity to hook the Western market via FFXIII on the 360 and not only increase sales for FFXIII, but secure more potential customers for FFXIV and their other games. S-E would enjoy a huge check to keep their game exclusive to PS3, but they would much more enjoy keeping their mainstay franchise alive with a surging new fanbase that, after experiencing FFXIII, might buy their other games as well. We'll see if this long-term decision works well for them.
 

klee123

Member
gbovo said:
I was looking at it more from a marketing point of view. If KZ2 and WKC were released in different months (In the US/EU), then Sony could focus their marketting and gamers attention on each game, without having one overshadow the other, marketting-wise.


The biggest problem is that Sony never really marketed their jrpgs in the first place.


ltse1 said:
Yes, creating internal studios are always an option, but finding the talent to fill out the team can be difficult. Sony's internal studios are already hard at work and I credit them for the great products they push out. If it were as easy as it sounded, Microsoft would've created many more internal studios.

As for securing third party exclusives, yes we could blame Sony for being arrogant due to the success of the PS2. However, it is a two-way agreement. Sony could've put a lot of the table for FFXIII exclusivity, but it's really up to S-E. Sony shouldn't be blamed because S-E sees an opportunity to hook the Western market via FFXIII on the 360 and not only increase sales for FFXIII, but secure more potential customers for FFXIV and their other games. S-E would enjoy a huge check to keep their game exclusive to PS3, but they would much more enjoy keeping their mainstay franchise alive with a surging new fanbase that, after experiencing FFXIII, might buy their other games as well. We'll see if this long-term decision works well for them.


At least they could have moneyhatted a few more jrpgs in the first place. If they were willing to fund for stuff like Afrika and Aquanauts holidays, then surely funding for a few more jrpgs wouldn't be impossible.
 
klee123 said:
The biggest problem is that Sony never really marketed their jrpgs in the first place.

They did in the PSone days. Legend of Dragoon had a huge marketing campaign and even outsold Chrono Cross (which came out around the same time).
 
klee123 said:
The biggest problem is that Sony never really marketed their jrpgs in the first place.





At least they could have moneyhatted a few more jrpgs in the first place. If they were willing to fund for stuff like Afrika and Aquanauts holidays, then surely funding for a few more jrpgs wouldn't be impossible.
They never had to.

Now they do.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
SolidSnakex said:
They did in the PSone days. Legend of Dragoon had a huge marketing campaign and even outsold Chrono Cross (which came out around the same time).

JRPGs are becoming a corner market genre outside of Japan really this generation for consoles. And then even there, that's debatable.
 

klee123

Member
makingmusic476 said:
They never had to.

Now they do.

Uh, a lot of their jrpgs during the PSone and PS2 era were bombs. There were a few exceptions like Dark Cloud and Legend of Dragoon, but the majority of them sold miserably.

Kagari said:
JRPGs are becoming a corner market genre outside of Japan really this generation for consoles. And then even there, that's debatable.

A bit of persistent marketing could do wonders, LO didn't do too shabby in the US.
 
klee123 said:
Uh, a lot of their jrpgs during the PSone and PS2 era were bombs. There were a few exceptions like Dark Cloud and Legend of Dragoon, but the majority of them sold miserably.
I know, but back then they had tons of defacto exclusive JRPGs, so in terms of having a good line up, they mattered little.

Today, however, we have two VERY similar consoles going head to head, and it's the few remaining exclusives that lead to one topping the other.

Sony needs to market White knight, to offset Tales of Vesperia, etc. from the 360 camp.

Edit: And the original Dark Cloud had quite a bit of marketing. I only bought it because of a tv commercial comparing it to Zelda! :lol

But yeah, early on in the ps2's life, when the system still had few games, Sony was marketing what it had quite well.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
makingmusic476 said:
Sony needs to market White knight, to offset Tales of Vesperia, etc. from the 360 camp.

I'm sure they will. It's their big holiday game in Japan.

TGS will prove to be interesting.
 
klee123 said:
A bit of persistent marketing could do wonders, LO didn't do too shabby in the US.

They can sell, but they aren't huge sellers like they once were. When FF first hit it big in Western territories it was easy to have a successful RPG. Other games would piggyback on that series success, like LoD. That's just not the case anymore. You have FF and KH, then you have everything else. The gap between them and other JRPG's in Western territories is huge.
 

ltse1

Member
I really wonder what Level 5 thinks about developing for consoles, particularly the PS3.

Do they enjoy the ease and their expert knowledge of developing for handhelds so their creativity can be unstifled by development difficulties?

I need larger-scale projects from Level 5! I hope WKC rekindles their love for making these.
 
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