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Why a gay law professor is trying to shut down women-only ‘Wonder Woman’ screenings.

scamander

Banned
I'm gay. Being gay doesn't preclude someone from being a misogynist. It's literally an event to celebrate a female superhero, it's ladies night.

Everyone who has a problem with this I want to see evidence of filing suits against bars for having ladies night events.

I don't have a problem with the cinema having a ladies night. 10 years ago I worked in a cinema and during one of their ladies night I was serving sparkling wine to women, while wearing nothing but a thong. I'm not even 100% sure I'm having a problem with them excluding men altogether. But I honestly don't understand why there is a need and I'm not sure going in this direction is good for society as a whole.

Nobody needs to see a specific screening at all. A company saw a chance to do a fun gimmick and make some money. It's in a tiny theater. People who don't actually care pretended to care and THAT is what pissed me off. The disingenuous whining for the sake of it.

They do "tough guy cinema" once a month. They do gay events. People got mad over the wording of a silly thing that will literally not negatively effect anyone.

But in their usual events, nobody is excluded. I wouldn't have thrown a tantrum on their facebook-page, in fact I didn't even open the thread, even though I saw it often on the front page. But when I saw it the first time, I asked myself "why?". Why is there a need for it? Basically every cinema here does monthly ladies nights. In clubs women often get free entry and some restaurants offer women a glas of sparkling wine for free on certain weekdays. But usually they don't exclude others and I'm not sure that's the right approach.

It will never cease to amaze me how certain topics will just end in people showing their ass.

I'm not, I'm just flabbergasted. I'm all for gender equality and I hope to see the day, when we as society have overcome any kind of discrimination, whether it's based on gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disabilities oder race.
 

Tagg9

Member
The problem for me is that Alamo Drafthouse is not primarily using this to empower women but to ridicule and mock any male who dares to take issue with this event. Intent matters, and based on their social media postings, the whole thing seems very mean-spirited.
 

Wiped89

Member
It's been illustrated in this thread why he and you are full of shit though.

No I'm not and neither is he. Are you a lawyer? Because he is, and specialises in discrimination law.
Do you? I doubt it. He has more expertise than a bunch of people on a games forum.

Transhuman said:
An event that prohibits people of a particular gender from attending is discriminatory. I truly don't know how to explain that any more simply.

Bingo.
 

diaspora

Member
No I'm not.



Bingo.

objectively wrong as illustrated in this thread. By all means, die on this hill though.

The problem for me is that Alamo Drafthouse is not primarily using this to empower women but to ridicule and mock any male who dares to take issue with this event. Intent matters, and based on their social media postings, the whole thing seems very mean-spirited.

It can, and should be both. The former is self evidence but the latter is to highlight a general privilege problem.
 

MUnited83

For you.
The problem for me is that Alamo Drafthouse is not primarily using this to empower women but to ridicule and mock any male who dares to take issue with this event. Intent matters, and based on their social media postings, the whole thing seems very mean-spirited.

Since only dumbasses have an issue with this, the mocking and ridicule is quite well deserved.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
No. Men have in fact bought tickets. Knock it off with your little "Gotcha!"

Can you show some evidence of guys being prohibited from buying tickets?

It's a few days away. Purchasing tickets does not necessitate entry.

Again, you're allowed to have women's events, but the Drafthouse is not being exclusionary in their distribution of goods and services.

Is the women's only screening of Wonder Woman a service? Should a layperson assume that by dint of being marketed as a women's only event, that it would be for women only?
 

Wiped89

Member
Can you show some evidence of guys being prohibited from buying tickets?

Men aren't allowed to attend the women-only screening. And if they are allowed to buy tickets and attend the screening, then it's not a women only screening.
 

MUnited83

For you.
No I'm not and neither is he. Are you a lawyer? Because he is, and specialises in discrimination law.
Do you? I doubt it. He has more expertise than a bunch of people on a games forum.



Bingo.

No one is getting blocked from buying tickets and going ( Alamo even says to "enjoy the movie!". The dudes that do go out of spite will do nothing but show how much of assholes they are.

Even if the theather didn't let them in to the screening, it would still be legal too.

Men aren't allowed to attend the women-only screening.

No actual evidence of that. Please go buy a ticket (oh wait it's sold out) and try to enter. Feel free to throw a tantrum and try to sue if they actually block you from entering.
 

diaspora

Member
It's a few days away. Purchasing tickets does not necessitate entry.



Is the women's only screening of Wonder Woman a service? Should a layperson assume by that by dint of being marketed as a women's only event, that it would be for women only?

Viewing Wonder Woman at the Drafthouse is a service, one wherein both men and women can enjoy together.
 
Lots of gay men are extremely misogynistic unfortunately, what this asshole is doing and the way he describes bachelorettes going to gay clubs leads me to believe he's one of them.

Errr...wat??
I really, really don't like the low-key insinuation that queer men's criticism of straight cisgender women (and its usually straight cisgender women) invading our spaces and acting very inappropriately within them is somehow misogynistic.

:/
 

reckless

Member
How about the sex and gender that couldn't fucking vote until the 20th century? Or the race held in bondage? Or the people that couldn't marry until a few years ago? What a fucking moronic thing to say- you don't give a shit about discrimination.

You know literally nothing about me but alright.
If you switch what group gets exclusive use of the theater, you say it shouldn't be allowed because its discrimination... Therefore it's discrimination no matter what group get's exclusive use, since it is exclusive use. Really don't know how to make that clearer.
 

Trident

Loaded With Aspartame
I've seen a lot of people compare this to Ladies' Nights. If anyone is actually curious about the law, and not just drive by diarrhea, there's a good wikipedia article covering the how the different US State's treat them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladies'_night

Short of it is, some states (like California) consider them illegal, other states (like Illinois), consider them legal.
 

Dice//

Banned
But I find it hard to disagree that it's discrimination. I think as a society we either need to be okay or not okay with discrimination, and saying it's fine to discriminate against men but not against women etc. is not a tenable way to handle it.

Sure. Fine.

Why does it have to be viewed so black and white though?

This event literally has no detriment on men, no blood shed or laws shockingly overruled to irrevocably harm the entirety of the male species and give women the edge in society after thousands of years of rarely being in charge.
I don't understand why it MUST be viewed as "MEN CAN'T" instead of the rare time where "women can". So it's pretty profound and shocking that select people won't give women this crumb (like seeing a film about, really, the first solo female-led big-budget superhero movie with pretty critical acclaim) without getting upset about it.

They're already #2 in life, why are women allowed to have a ""girl's night"" at a movie theatre? Because fuck women and their pink girly laughter when they get together, and how dare women try to have fun in public by themselves!!!!! THROW MEN IN THERE!

: /

Presumably. I don't know. Why this is worth all the "split ink" is completely petty though, and bringing the law into it feels emotionless, tone deaf (with respect to history and context about women's places compared to men, both now and in this past) and just a little silly for what's in the greater scheme of things incredibly trivial issue about watching a movie.
 

diaspora

Member
You know literally nothing about me but alright.
If you switch what group gets exclusive use theater, you say it shouldn't be allowed because its discrimination... Therefore it's discrimination no matter what group get's exclusive use, since it is exclusive use. Really don't know how to make that clearer.

Yes I do, as this post illustrates you don't know how discrimination actually works.
 

Rayis

Member
I've had experiences going to gay bars and there being a group of extremely obnoxious and borderline homophobic/transphobic and abusive straight women in gay bars. It's not uncommon. But that doesn't mean you should point at all straight women and say they're all like that, they're not obviously.

However at the same time let's not pretend they're all innocent either. As a bisexual man, I've come across and have experienced a really ugly, homophobic side to straight women most people wouldn't believe.

Women should be allowed safe spaces or places because they're marginalized, just like minority groups. Only difference is your not in a minority just being a woman alone.

I've heard of those incidents, in that case it's good to kick out those disruptive absusive people, but like you said, is not fair to paint all straight women as disruptive in gay spaces.

of course! anybody can be homo/biphobic, including women of any orientation, just as anybody can also be misogynistic including women themselves.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
Do you honestly think they would let someone buy a ticket and then deny them the service they paid for? Or can you just admit that you were wrong and be reasonable?

I do not know whether they offer online bookings for screenings, if a man bought one of these tickets I truly don't know whether they would be denied entry.
 

reckless

Member
Yes I do, as this post illustrates you don't know how discrimination actually works.

I really don't think you do since you seem to think whether something is discrimination or not is based on what specific group is exclusively allowed to watch the movie in a specific room. When it's pretty obvious that discrimination is the act of only allowing a single group to watch a movie in the room.
 
Considering they said to one of them to "enjoy the movie", seems he will go in just fine.

Unless he goes in loudly being a douche, in which case he'll get kicked out as per Alamo tradition.

Again, we've had at least a dozen threads with hundreds, if not thousands of replies, about an event that hasn't even happened *just at the thought that men could possibly be unable to attend a special additional screening of a movie*

If this much concern was displayed over hundreds of other real issues of discrimination the world would be a better place!
 

Tagg9

Member
Since only dumbasses have an issue with this, the mocking and ridicule is quite well deserved.

My point is that this whole thing is a social media play for Alamo Drafthouse, where they get equal benefit from mocking men as they do from empowering women. Doing the latter should not necessitate the former. They could have easily made their screenings geared towards women by simply offering cosplay competitions, awarding random free tickets to groups of females, etc. But no, they decided to fully exclude men, advertise it as "no men allowed", and then proceeded to sling mud at anyone who criticised this act of exclusion on social media.
 

CazTGG

Member
Yeah none of those are okay because its discrimination... It's weird how being against discrimination now gets you insulted...

So who decides what is and isn't a traditionally excluded groups? And when does it change if ever?

Short answer:

What isn't: Straight, cis, white, able-bodied men (See also: The dominant culture)

What is: Women, people of color, the LGBTQ2S+ community

When does it change?: After several generations and demographic shifts change what constitutes the dominant culture in a given society, among other necessary changes in order to combat democratic racism. It's not a problem that's resolved over night, and certainly not by getting mad at what is a harmless means of promoting the film.
 

Rayis

Member
Errr...wat??
I really, really don't like the low-key insinuation that queer men's criticism of straight cisgender women (and its usually straight cisgender women) invading our spaces and acting very inappropriately within them is somehow misogynistic.

:/

I didn't mean to insinuate that, I'm very familiar with those incidents as a queer male myself, I was just calling this gay person in particular trying to shut down the women-only screening as misogynistic, I didn't mean to paint all queer males who have a problem with disrespectful straight women disrupting queer spaces as misogynistic.
 

Wiped89

Member
Even if the theather didn't let them in to the screening, it would still be legal too.
.

Except it wouldn't, because it's illegal to deny someone entry based on their gender - at least, that is what this lawyer is arguing. Can you point me to any evidence of discrimination law in the US which allows for discrimination based on gender?
 
My point is that this whole thing is a social media play for Alamo Drafthouse, where they get equal benefit from mocking men as they do from empowering women. Doing the latter should not necessitate the former. They could have easily made their screenings geared towards women by simply offering cosplay competitions, awarding random free tickets to groups of females, etc. But no, they decided to fully exclude men, advertise it as "no men allowed", and then proceeded to sling mud at anyone who criticised this act of exclusion on social media.

Why would they give free tickets to a show that is collecting ticket prices as donations to Planned Parenthood? Or try and entice women by...giving them the opportunity to dress up as Wonder Woman?

Like, what?
 

Cyframe

Member
Yeah none of those are okay because its discrimination... It's weird how being against discrimination now gets you insulted...

So who decides what is and isn't a traditionally excluded groups? And when does it change if ever?

No offense but it doesn't seem like you have a good grasp of history if you are even asking the bolded question.

I don't have a problem with the cinema having a ladies night. 10 years ago I worked in a cinema and during one of their ladies night I was serving sparkling wine to women, while wearing nothing but a thong. I'm not even 100% sure I'm having a problem with them excluding men altogether. But I honestly don't understand why there is a need and I'm not sure going in this direction is good for society as a whole

Then I would have to say the same as I did to the above poster to you. This isn't a systematic effort to disenfranchise men.

If people want to see an end to discrimination and want to see the marginalized empowered then they are going to have to make room for those individuals to have their own space.

This is like the France thread where people jumped on Black French women for daring to have a private event to discuss the intersection of blackness and womanhood while having a public venue to discuss more intersectional approaches. Having that space to decompress is valuable without having to explain oneself to others who don't have the same lived experiences.

Women have been waiting for this film that a few years ago looked like it was still up in the air.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
Viewing Wonder Woman at the Drafthouse is a service, one wherein both men and women can enjoy together.

Is the women's only screening a service that men and women can enjoy together?
 
I feel bad fod the woman attending, but I'm cracking up thinking about the 4-5 MRAs that bought tickets in protest who are likely going to get to simply sit and watch their movie awkwardly instead of getting to fanticize about believing they are Rosa Parks.
 

Tagg9

Member
Why would they give free tickets to a show that is collecting ticket prices as donations to Planned Parenthood? Or try and entice women by...giving them the opportunity to dress up as Wonder Woman?

Like, what?

You know what I'm getting at. There would be plenty of ways to celebrate women at this type of screening without excluding men.
 

Ketkat

Member
Is the women's only screening a service that men and women can enjoy together?

How many times are you going to ask this question? Do you just ignore every comment that shows that you're being a jackass here? Men have bought tickets. Men are allowed in.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Except it wouldn't, because it's illegal to deny someone entry based on their gender - at least, that is what this lawyer is arguing. Can you point me to any evidence of discrimination law in the US which allows for discrimination based on gender?

They are not being denied entry or access to any particular product. Men can go there and buy access to the exact same product without issues, they are not being barred or discriminated from access to the product.

Is the women's only screening a service that men and women can enjoy together?
Yes, it is.
 

Trident

Loaded With Aspartame
How many times are you going to ask this question? Do you just ignore every comment that shows that you're being a jackass here? Men have bought tickets. Men are allowed in.

Presumably, the confusion arises from the text of the Alamo's own advertisement:

Apologies, gentlemen, but we’re embracing our girl power and saying “No Guys Allowed” for one special night at the Alamo Ritz.

https://drafthouse.com/show/women-only-screening-wonder-woman
 

Wiped89

Member
They are not being denied entry or access to any particular product. Men can go there and buy access to the exact same product without issues, they are not being barred or discriminated from access to the product.

Yes, it is.

They are being denied access to the screening - or that was the suggestion from their 'no men allowed' advert.

Black people used to be put on separate buses, because they were deemed unworthy of riding the same bus as white people. They 'still had access to the product', right, so no problem? I'm not saying it's the same, and that's an extreme example, but my point is that discrimination laws exist for a reason - borne out of awful cases like that. It is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of race, religion or gender and that includes segregation.

This is just hypothetical of course, because apparently men are allowed in to this screening, which means it's not women only. My point was that if it was women only, it would be illegal.
 
If I had a bakery and refused to serve men on Thursdays, or said men couldn't order panini's or something, you don't get how that's fucked up, regardless of the fact men aren't a historically marginalised group?

If the bakery said, "We're having an event for women", then, no, I would not get how that's fucked up.

Your analogy is useless and I think it underscores the difference between how people view this. You see it as someone being denied something; hence your analogy of men being denied a sandwich.

I immediately thoughy of women getting something that was, not even that long ago, unimaginable in America. And in 2017 still causes this much of an uproar, as we can see.

Men can still go see the movie at that theater, at various days and times. They are not being denied anything.

Seriously: if you are at all compelled by the concept of equal rights for women, then the only logical response to an all-female screening of Wonder Woman is a positive one. If it's negative, or you're inspired to talk about the same situation with men, "out of principle", then I'm sorry to have to tell you that your thinking sucks and you should change it.
 

MUnited83

For you.
They are being denied access to the screening.

Black people used to be put on separate buses, because they were deemed unworthy of riding the same bus as white people. They 'still had access to the product', right, so no problem? I'm not saying it's the same, and that's an extreme example, but my point is that discrimination laws exist for a reason - borne out of awful cases like that. It is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of race, religion or gender and that includes segregation.

Separate bus? What? Any man and any woman can go see a screening of Wonder Woman, Alamo has plenty of them.
 
We've entered my favorite part of the conversation, invoking black folks and our struggles in some capacity. Another often recurring theme in any online debate, more likely to happen the longer the debate goes on.

The problem for me is that Alamo Drafthouse is not primarily using this to empower women but to ridicule and mock any male who dares to take issue with this event. Intent matters, and based on their social media postings, the whole thing seems very mean-spirited.

I imagine it would be an event that empowered women if men would I dunno...shut the fuck up and quit crying like 3 year olds when they aren't the center of attention.

Literally ALL of this could be solved if men just shut up.
 

commedieu

Banned
People are losing their shit over this. No fucks, this isn't you being told you can't vote, use a bathroom, or marry A white person.

It's a ladies night screening for wonder woman. So many fragile men. All pretending this is on the same level. Just amazing to witness. So many so called alphas.

This happens because women make less than men, and aren't treated equally. A celebration of woman hood is owed, because men celebrate every minute they breathe privilege in. That's the end of faux oppression.

Christ.
 

Wiped89

Member
Separate bus? What? Any man and any woman can go see a screening of Wonder Woman, Alamo has plenty of them.

Bus segregation based on race was a central issue in America in the 1950s http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/alabama-bus-segregation-ended

And it's not about 'fragile men' or denying women a positive spotlight. Discrimination is illegal, whatever your reason or political or personal stance. That's the point some people are trying to make in this thread, being shot down by people saying 'fragile men!' And 'men can still see the movie' the first of which is unhelpful and the latter misses the point.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
Men are allowed in.

Only on Thursday will we know to a certainty. As far as I'm aware they have not said outright whether members of both genders will be allowed to attend.

I imagine it would be an event that empowered women if men would I dunno...shut the fuck up and quit crying like 3 year olds when they aren't the center of attention.

Literally ALL of this could be solved if men just shut up.

All of what?
 
Black people used to be put on separate buses, because they were deemed unworthy of riding the same bus as white people. They 'still had access to the product', right, so no problem? I'm not saying it's the same, and that's an extreme example, but my point is that discrimination laws exist for a reason - borne out of awful cases like that. It is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of race, religion or gender and that includes segregation.

Yes, men being unable to attend a screening of Wonder Woman on Tuesday in Austin Texas at a single theater at a particular time slot = the civil rights struggle. Come the fuck on.

Remember that a big part of the failure of 'separate but equal' was the complete failure of the equal part. Services in Southern states were unequivocally drastically inferior. In case you're wondering, men will have access to the same version of Wonder Woman they see in theaters.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Mostly what I find disturbing are the extreme arguments between each side. I understand where both sides are coming from.
 

commedieu

Banned
Bus segregation based on race was a central issue in America in the 1950s http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/alabama-bus-segregation-ended
Don't fucking dare to compare a man not being allowed to see a screening of a movie at 4pm to segregation. This isn't a slippery slope. Men aren't at risk of losing rights.

Ignoring that this state has ladies nights, is making it a sad fragile argument by punk ass dudes with beyond frail egos.

This isn't soft ass dudes Rosa Parks moment. Not even close.
 

Wiped89

Member
Men being unable to attend a screening of Wonder Woman on Tuesday in Austin Texas at a single theater at a particular time slot = the civil rights struggle.

Remember that a big part of the failure of 'separate but equal' was the complete failure of the equal part. Services in Southern states were unequivocally drastically inferior. In case you're wondering, men will have access to the same version of Wonder Woman they see in theaters.

I did say that I'm not saying it's the same. I said that segregation based on race, religion or gender is illegal and examples like that of bus segregation in the past is one reason why.

Commedieu: but how can you not see the comparison? The cinema was trying to encourage limiting a screening based on gender. It would not be acceptable to limit even one screening based on race. And discrimination law applies to race, religion and gender.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
You guys just aren't getting it. The important fact is that you have to be separated. It doesn't matter that it was for a few showings.

Edit: How many times does it need to be repeated that telling someone to go elsewhere is unacceptable?

If an organization does a meeting called, like, "Job resources for ex-convicts", we don't get mad because what about all the people who aren't ex-convicts. If an organization does a meeting called, like, "Putting your life together after divorce", we don't get mad because what about all the people who are happily married but still need to put their life together. If an organization does a meeting called "Issues facing women in tech", we don't get mad because "what about the issues facing men in tech, like when you and your pair programming buddy wear the same j crew gingham check shirt to the dave matthews band concert". It's also okay for there to be a Black History Month.

The reason "Separate and (un)Equal" is unjust is not because it is inherently wrong for there to be a space, a place, a time, a process, or a thing that applies to one group versus another, it's because it was part of a systematic process of the state using its force to dehumanize, denigrate, and criminalize the existence of millions of people because of their skin colour.

I agree that public accommodations should be inclusive. The question is how to we make them inclusive. And sometimes the answer might involve something with a little more finesse than "Everyone Is Welcome" -- sometimes the answer does involve thinking about how each group might have different needs that can be catered to in different ways. And again, this isn't a case where we're talking about you or me or anyone getting less, it's not like there's going to be a long line of men waiting because all the unisex showings of Wonder Woman are sold out and the women-only showings, which have space, won't admit them. It's meant to be an option on top of all the showings that already exist.

I should also say btw that it's not like they were addressing a Great Moral Injustice. Like, it's a comic book movie, and many women do attend them regardless. It's more like they thought "Hey, wouldn't there be a neat vibe if the audience were all women and the showing was explicitly themed around female empowerment". It's extremely low stakes. So as unusual as the showing is, it's also, like, ... this is not a Normandy Beach for a new Matriarchal Society where Western Values and Masculinity is Punished by Feminist SJW Mainstream Media Fake News or whatever.
 
Only on Thursday will we know to a certainty. As far as I'm aware they have not said outright whether members of both genders will be allowed to attend.



All of what?

Men bitching. Like most problems in society, if men just shut the fuck up many of them would be solved.

There is no real outrage, just my fellow gender showin they ass because for 2hrs the world doesn't revolve around them.
 
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