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Why is HDR a thing now?

S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
It's funny, the display industry throws out so much gimmicky shit that when something that's actually meaningful comes out, people still call it marketing bullshit!

General Lee said:
If the panel doesn't reach the UHD Premium standard levels, it can be "HDR compatible", so in essence it'll just accept and tone map the HDR signal to what the display can handle, but it's not true HDR. Just like checkerboard rendering 4K just isn't the same as native 4K. Depending on the capabilities of the panel it might get close.

While there is HDR10 and Dolby Vision out there right now, DV is more of a superset, and both could easily co-exist. There's also Hybrid Log Gamma coming for broadcast content from BBC and NHK.

HDR10 is also getting dynamic metadata support in the future, which requires an HDMI update, as in HDMI 2.1. Sets out there right now only have 2.0 support, and whether it's possible to update them through firmware doesn't seem to be confirmed. If they can't be updated, just think of what it'll mean for all those early adopters buying their HDR sets and receivers with HDMI 2.0 now. There's no real future proofing right now.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. I really think it's wise for people to wait for HDMI 2.1
 
M

Mega

Banned
onken said:
Dang I see, even brand new games like Deus Ex don't support it? Does it have any kind of performance hit?
Click to expand...

Not sure about the games, but some TVs increase input lag when you enable HDR and some disable HDR in Game mode. But there are plenty of TVs out now and in the future where the lag increase is minimal and Game mode + HDR work together.
 
T

Trojan

Member
StoOgE said:
HDMI 2.0a actually.

It's why I don't own an Xbox One S. My 1400 dollar Marantz reciever is HDMI 2.0.

I can see 4k HDR content over Netflix without sound because my TV (LG OLED) has a native Netflix app (though I get no sound).

I bought my receiver 3 months too early or I would have the Marantz HDMI 2.0a connection and UHD already :/
Click to expand...

Can someone explain to me why your audio receiver would be a factor in this conversation? Is it because of how you're using it as a bypass or is this something different. I saw an entire thread on receivers relating to 4K/HDR and I'm confused why an audio device is being mentioned alongside this visuals discussion.
 
S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
Trojan said:
Can someone explain to me why your audio receiver would be a factor in this conversation? Is it because of how you're using it as a bypass or is this something different. I saw an entire thread on receivers relating to 4K/HDR and I'm confused why an audio device is being mentioned alongside this visuals discussion.
Click to expand...
Because the video signal needs to pass through the receiver to process the audio and it needs to support passing through the relevant HDR signals e.g a new enough HDMI version.
 
J

joms5

Member
Mega said:
This is complete and utter bullshit. 10-bit panels, high dynamic range and wide color gamut is not a "gimmick." Whether you're in art, animation, graphic design, video editing, photography, or just a lay person... Anyone who has been paying attention to display technology has been waiting for this for years as it is a true and measurable evolution of visual quality beyond "more pixels!"

I liken it to cameras were some manufacturers got into megapixel wars whereas the high-end market more sensibly got into the business of bigger and better sensors capable of capturing more light and data from a scene, thus taking higher quality photos (not just taking bigger crappier photos).
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand my tone. Maybe I should have called it a new "feature". But it is a gimmick. People on GAF seem to not know what the word gimmick means.Needless to say it's a way to convince people that they need a new television.

Whether you agree with it or not. I'm all for it personally, just not as an early adopter. But to answer OP's question, because manufacturers want it to be.

You could argue that it's just the next logical step. I've been taking HDR photos for years now. But the people who make it a thing are going to be the people who have the money to make it a thing, hence the manufacturers.
 
J

jmdajr

Member
gim·mick
ˈɡimik/
noun
noun: gimmick; plural noun: gimmicks

a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
synonyms: publicity stunt, contrivance, scheme, stratagem, ploy; informalshtick
"the trivia contest was a gimmick to sell more newspapers"



If true, every generation of gaming has been a gimmick. From 8-bit to 16-bit and so on.

I think we feel about these things differently as tech consumers.

edit: I remember my aunt asking my cousin what was different from Super Nes to N64.
"What?!?!?!?! It's in 3D!!!! Can't you see?????!!!!"
 
T

Trojan

Member
SeeNoWeevil said:
Because the video signal needs to pass through the receiver to process the audio and it needs to support passing through the relevant HDR signals e.g a new enough HDMI version.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that was my best guess. For me, I route all my devices through my TV and then use optical out of my TV to my receiver. It limits me to whatever is on my TV, but it's a lot simpler to manage and my receiver is not a bottleneck.
 
C

clintar

Member
Hasn't this been explained so many times about the difference in this new hardware standard and old HDR rendering techniques?
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
After the new PS4 4.00 update, I enabled HDR on the console and my TV. I noticed that in games like FFXV Platinum Demo, light sources like the sun became more dazzling like staring at a real sun. Dunno maybe it's just me.
 
M

michaelius

Banned
Cobalt Izuna said:
This makes me sad... That it takes Sony to talk about for it to excite people...
Click to expand...

If you don't concentrate on failed sarcasm attemp - problem with adoption of new technologies is lack of content - the only source of HDR material was very limited selection of streaming services and bunch of expensive 4K Blue-rays.

With Sony annoucing HDR suport it means people will have tons of HDR content to use on their TVs which means buying it is finally justified instead of - maybe it will be cool in the future.
 
P

Paz

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
After the new PS4 4.00 update, I enabled HDR on the console and my TV. I noticed that in games like FFXV Platinum Demo, light sources like the sun became more dazzling like staring at a real sun. Dunno maybe it's just me.
Click to expand...

There are currently zero games that support HDR on PS4, or XBox One S.

Placebo's aren't really a bad thing though.
 
K

Kaako

Felium Defensor
visiblemode said:
HDR is a thing because, it's stunning. People are implementing it, going forward, because it's worth it.
Click to expand...
Pretty much. Legit HDR is the tits on a nice OLED 4K panel.
Do yourselves a favor and go view an actual HDR demo in BB or something.

Paz said:
There are currently zero games that support HDR on PS4, or XBox One S.

Placebo's aren't really a bad thing though.
Click to expand...
I think it'll be quite interesting once gamers actually see some HDR enabled games on a decent HDR OLED side by side. I feel quite a few will change their tone.
 
Tumle

Tumle

Member
NeoRaider said:
It's mostly PR by MS/Sony. Specially from Sony since they are in the TV business as well. To make new and expensive TVs more attractive and to sell them.
Click to expand...
Yes HDR has no real benefit.. I'm still playing 480p on my old black and white tv from 1956!
It's all PR!!
/s
I'm not saying that there is no PR to this.. But not all PR is bad ;)
Sorry quoted wrong post :/
 
timmyp53

timmyp53

Member
Paz said:
There are currently zero games that support HDR on PS4, or XBox One S.

Placebo's aren't really a bad thing though.
Click to expand...

Its possible to just put HDR setting on the tv itself. From what I've seen from my Bravia is that with it on everything becomes contrasted and more deep colored. It's not a placebo. I have a feeling that's what a lot of people are doing. Putting the HDR setting on although it wont actually display the way its supposed to. (no actual support yet) you should see a difference. I can tell the difference. No the difference isn't a good thing for unsupported content so I leave it off or wait for my tv to recognize hdr content.

It looks fantastic on Amazon Primes Man in the High Castle on my smart tv. That show actually supports it but if you put it on for regular shows youll just get varying levels of contrast that you usually dont see.
 
B

BumRush

Member
Polioliolio said:
Great, so everything is going to look like over-saturated photoshopped garbage..
Click to expand...

Honestly, the image is faked. It's meant to be an example of the difference but, if anything, it makes it look incredibly unrealistic.

The real thing (on an HDR panel) looks like the real thing.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
michaelius said:
If you don't concentrate on failed sarcasm attemp - problem with adoption of new technologies is lack of content - the only source of HDR material was very limited selection of streaming services and bunch of expensive 4K Blue-rays.

With Sony annoucing HDR suport it means people will have tons of HDR content to use on their TVs which means buying it is finally justified instead of - maybe it will be cool in the future.
Click to expand...

Netflix, MS, or just general TV tech in general. If Sony were the first to tell you about HDR then there's some sort of lacking interest in technology. For it to happen with this sort fo scale makes it feel like when Apple announces something that has already been done for ages.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Goose_Se7en said:
It's like 3D games back in 2011, I think the difference is that I think it's gonna stick and won't be like other gimmicks.

I just saw Mad Max Fury Road on a Samsung KS8000 at Best Buy and that was an experience. HDR just like VR is something you have to experience for yourself to he sold on it. So difficult to market and get the messaging across.
Click to expand...
I have Fury Road on regular Bluray. Does that mean I'll get the movie in HDR if I get an HDR capable HDTV/4KTV? Or do I need the movie on friggin 4K UHD Bluray as well?
 
timmyp53

timmyp53

Member
Alex_Mexico said:
I have Fury Road on bluray. Does that mean I'll get the movie on HDR if I get an HDR capable HDTV or 4KTV? Or do I need the movie on friggin 4K UHD Bluray?
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be possible... the hdr information itself isn't on the disc not to mention the 4k film itself doesn't exist on a 1080p print.

This is starting to remind me of the pushback when the tech industry was transitioning to bluray honestly.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
stopped reading after HL2 HDR reference
jk...kinda

i have a feeling a lot of people are going to be like this though...i.e. "what's old is new again!" "we had hdr 12 years ago!" etc.
 
M

Mega

Banned
joms5 said:
I think you misunderstand my tone. Maybe I should have called it a new "feature". But it is a gimmick. People on GAF seem to not know what the word gimmick means.Needless to say it's a way to convince people that they need a new television.

Whether you agree with it or not. I'm all for it personally, just not as an early adopter. But to answer OP's question, because manufacturers want it to be.

You could argue that it's just the next logical step. I've been taking HDR photos for years now. But the people who make it a thing are going to be the people who have the money to make it a thing, hence the manufacturers.
Click to expand...

10-bit/HDR is a major advancement in display technology. It is not a minor feature and it is not a gimmick in any sense of the word. If you're old enough, you remember displays and computers that showed less than the current 16 million colors. This new advancement is similar to the jump from sub-8-bit displays to the current standard.

HDR photography is not the same since it is a hardware-based (multiple combined photo passes) or a software-based attempt to overcome the limitations of lenses' light capture by approximating the greater variability of how our eyes see light and dark areas in a real life scene.
 
M

Mega

Banned
oneofthose said:
Just a question do animated shows have any benefit to hdr?
Click to expand...

A complex 3D animated movie, yeah, just like AAA games implementing HDR. Something simple and flat-shaded like Aladdin or a Justice League cartoon? I doubt it. You're not going to get any improvement over this except maybe in those background gradients and that's assuming the content supports HDR:

justice-league5.jpg


RealityCheque said:
And then cry when you see how much that TV costs.
Click to expand...

As it should, quality costs money. I want OLED prices to come down because I'm not interested in pursuing cheaper, lower quality alternatives.

Polioliolio said:
Great, so everything is going to look like over-saturated photoshopped garbage.

I loathed this kind of shit.. Now gaming is telling me the next big thing is unrealistic colors and high contrast and over saturation? Jump off a cliff. I'll play things like Duck Game.
Click to expand...

You've got it all wrong. The next big thing is more realistic color range and contrast, not oversaturation and exaggerated contrast. This is no different in principle than going from NES Composite to RGB (RGB mod, AVS, Hi-Def mod, Analogue NT) in order to get a better signal with vastly improved picture quality.
 
O

OG_Original Gamer

Member
HDR doesn't calibrate your display. It takes control of the backlight, switches to the wider color gamut.

But calibrating grayscale and color accuracy, No. Getting the display to match EOTF PQ/SMPTE 2084, this requires a professional calibration or you purchasing a meter with software and a lot of time.
 
th4tguy

th4tguy

Member
JamboGT said:
HDR in the source engine is a different thing to HDR in televisions.
Click to expand...
This, HDR you are talking about lighting tech in 3d game engines. HDR on tvs is just explaining that the panel is capable of displaying a much larger color pallet.

Edit: Wow, I'm way behind in this thread. That's what I get for sitting on my update for this long.
 
I

Inglorious_ Man

Member
I have a Sony 65x850c that is 4k/HDR and it is really good tv but the thing is I wish I waited a little bit longer for to get one since HDR is still an evolving format. Most of the 4k/HDR are not up to the Ultimate HD Alliance Specifications for HDR.
 
Warnen

Warnen

Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
The Albatross said:
I think all HDMI cables support HDR, at least going by Geoffrey Morrison's "All HDMI Cables Are the Same" thesis.

I pinged him for some clarity specifically on HDMI, because last year HDMI manufacturers started selling "HDMI 2.0a" spec which seemed to be yet another scam by the expensive wire makers (Monster, etc), because these cables "Complied with the HDR spec," but they don't tell you that even if a cable doesn't comply with the spec, it still supports HDR.

I'm no expert though but Geoffrey Morrison seems to agree.



Beyond that I think an even bigger issue for gaming will be input delay and HDR. It varies wildly per set, and even some expensive, high quality sets have bad input lag

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-the-best-4k-screens-for-hdr-gaming
Click to expand...


Yeah I can't say for sure but the HDMI I had my Xbox One S hooked up with didn't allow it to go into 4k/HDR, swaped it with the one in the box and it works.

Don't think you need monster cables, amazon has some for $4ish
 
M

M3d10n

Member
onken said:
Yeah I don't really get it either. I have my Nvidia 1080 hooked up to my 4K HDR and every is on and enabled it appears. Is this something that should just work? Or do games need to have support written on a case-by-case basis?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if current video drivers even support HDR output. Games would need to support it, because it's literally a new color bit-depth option like going from 16-bit to 32-bit color (which was actually 24-bit).
 
J

jmdajr

Member
OG_Original Gamer said:
HDR doesn't calibrate your display. It takes control of the backlight, switches to the wider color gamut.

But calibrating grayscale and color accuracy, No. Getting the display to match EOTF PQ/SMPTE 2084, this requires a professional calibration or you purchasing a meter with software and a lot of time.
Click to expand...
Doh
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
A big reason HDR is getting a push now is because banding becomes much more obvious on 4K displays. A wider color gamut helps to prevent that.
 
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