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[Necrophage]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

 

[AESplusF]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

I agree with your point, but violence isn't typically discriminatory against any particular group of people. Personally I'd like to see less of both.

 

[2blackcats]

I agree with your point, but violence isn't typically discriminatory against any particular group of people. Personally I'd like to see less of both.

In video games it is. How many men have you killed versus women playing games?

 

[AESplusF]

In video games it is. How many men have you killed versus women playing games?

Definitely more men, not even remotely close. Could you give me a good argument for violence being generally discriminatory in video games?

Getting non objectified women a bigger presence in games has taken some considerable amount of public discourse.

And fortunately it's working.

 

[televator]

Even without debate, lots of games incentivize pacifism or nonviolent means are the sole way to progress in the game. MGS, Deus Ex, Undertale, Journey, Life is Strange, etc...

Getting non objectified women a bigger presence in games has taken some considerable amount of public discourse.

 

[Monocle]

In video games it is. How many men have you killed versus women playing games?

Most antagonists and killable characters in most games are men, so...

 

[Hahs]

What if violence isn't okay without limitations and people are having that discussion in ongoing debates

Like, you say no one criticizes violence, but what was the last game where you murdered children?

Limbo

 

[Lionel Richie]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

There's a lot of rationalization by people trying to paint those as completely different deals when in fact they're really not all that different. To me the biggest problem with objectification is the lack of women in creative roles in the industry, which makes that objectification too one sided. We're driven by sex and we will always gravitate towards attractive characters in our fiction, this is unavoidable. The problem is that we basically only have the male point of view, but rarely the woman point of view (although there are some huge exceptions, like the Uncharted series and if you don't think Nathan Drake is objectified at all then I'm sorry for you). I once defended something like this in another thread and got a lot of angry responses, but the problem isn't so much the portrayal of women in gaming, but rather the lack of women creating these characters which will always lead to some kind of issue.

 

[n0razi]

Violence of some description is critical to many games that rely on win/lose scenarios, which most games do. Violence is a core gameplay mechanic.

What sexiness can't be a core gameplay mechanic?

 

[Shaanyboi]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

Because sex and sexual desires are things most people deal with frequently. Violence isn't.

It's not always obvious when peoples' attitudes towards the opposite sex are motivating or influencing their actions. But it's plainly obvious when people are violent, and we typically know when not to engage in that behaviour.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

Because violence is predominantly based in action and objectification in thought and perception....

 

[foolishoptimist]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

Honestly, it's entirely possible that it is influencing people to commit violent acts. But violence in a video game, is usually in response to a violent antagonist. Violence is usually enacted to achieve a result(.ie save the world). Most people aren't put in circumstances in real life where they may or may not respond with inappropriate violence/aggression.

Women are objectified in games, because... well, there's frequently no reason for it, they just are.


But ignoring the dubious impact it has on male gamers, what about the impact on female gamers? How do you think female gamers feel, when almost every female character in games is objectified?

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

People deal with aggravating circumstances often. A "violent" person reacts different to perceived threats than a non-violent person. If you get elbowed in a bar, a non-violent person probably doesn't perceive that as a big deal, it was probably a mistake. A violent person could perceive that as a threat and react aggressively.

If a violence in a video game causes "violent" behavior, it means it causes more aggressive behavior. Certainly it doesn't cause someone to kill someone or go on a gun spree, but it can cause you to act more aggressively.

 

[spekkeh]

Yes? You don't think that game is some accurate representation of the military, do you? You could call that game a gritty reboot of GI JOE and you wouldn't be wrong.

Come on now. No the rules of engagement don't stipulate spraying a machine gun while you zip line, but aside from that the guns, locations, outfits and American jingoism are about as real as it gets. There's a reason games like these have licensed guns and Hollywood movies get free promotional work from the army.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Come on now. No the rules of engagement don't stipulate spraying a machine gun while you zip line, but aside from that the guns, locations, outfits and American jingoism are about as real as it gets. There's a reason games like these have licensed guns and Hollywood movies get free promotional work from the army.

There is plenty of valid criticism towards glorification of the military, and you won't find me disagreeing with you on it. But CoD4, for all the political anxiety it preys upon for its aesthetic, it's still exceptionally cartoonish in its depiction of violence.

 

[spekkeh]

But that's missing the forest for the trees. Any objectification in games would then also be cartoonish. That's kind of the point. It makes violence fun. (And it does it seemingly with ulterior motives, to sell guns and the notion of Team America.)

 

[Shaanyboi]

But that's missing the forest for the trees. Any objectification in games would then also be cartoonish. That's kind of the point. It makes violence fun.

When male players step away from a game, they're also typically disconnecting from where that violence is considered okay. There is a hard obvious line. That same disconnect doesn't necessarily happen with how they view or feel about women.

 

[Dylan]

When male players step away from a game, they're also typically disconnecting from where that violence is considered okay. There is a hard obvious line. That same disconnect doesn't necessarily happen with how they view or feel about women.

That's fairly speculative.

 

[Budi]

That's fairly speculative.

Gamergate is a decent example of this though.

 

[Sheroking]

Neither are inherently wrong in a fantasy setting, but as we're trying to be more inclusive to women and entertain a wider variety of people, curbing the objectification of women is a necessity.

If we were trying to get more pacifists to play video-games, curbing fantasy violence would be the method.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Women are objectified in games, because... well, there's frequently no reason for it, they just are.

When you say this, you mean it only within the context of the games story, dont you? You must appreciate that like in any other media, lots of straight guys like seeing sexy girls and it makes the game more fun for us.

 

[PantsuJo]

Violence is indiscriminate.

*Edit* (Sort of).

First post nailed it.

 

[giapel]

Don't even have to go there.
Why is violence ok but nudity or swearing is taboo? Blame mainstream American media.

 

[i-Jest]

There is no such thing as a true pacifist run in COD. Rankings matter, as do kill death ratios. We live in societies where violence sells, no matter how graphic it may be. There is value given to the act, depending on the medium or circumstance. We as a species allow it because it plays a part in our continuity.

End of story.

 

[Tecnniqe]

What constitutes objectification and what consitutes protectionism in video games though?

As with Watch Dogs 2 they patched out a poorly rendered vagina but left dongs still flopping about.

While there are more obvious "sexy" female characters there are also the sexy man-hunk badasses. I think while one is more predominant there exist sexism aspects of both.

I like my sexy male and female characters in games, depending on setting but if you want a power fantasy, yeah of course sexy characters are great, but that don't make me sexually harassing either gender in everyday life.
Same with violent games. There's an easy disconnect between it for me and depending on the type of game, the display can be fine.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

What constitutes objectification and what consitutes protectionism in video games though?

As with Watch Dogs 2 they patched out a poorly rendered vagina but left dongs still flopping about.

They also left most vagina alone. The only one they patched out is the one on female prostitutes and apparently, male prostitutes on the game don't actually have their dongs flopping about.

 

[Shaanyboi]

That's fairly speculative.

I won't argue that, but go to a convention like PAX. Most people there know that grabbing a gun and shooting up a room is a bad thing to do. But then simultaneously, the amount of sexual harassment at places like that is so fucking repugnant that any claim that it's not a deeply ingrained (and widespread) issue within the gaming community is like having blinders on.

 

[spekkeh]

When male players step away from a game, they're also typically disconnecting from where that violence is considered okay. There is a hard obvious line. That same disconnect doesn't necessarily happen with how they view or feel about women.

Not really, theres ample evidence that people are more okay with violence after engaging with it in a video game. More so than objectification actually. In addition it's not unthinkable that violence also begets objectification, seeing as they are both about othering and testosterone fueled. Your distinction feels very labored.

I won't argue that, but go to a convention like PAX. Most people there know that grabbing a gun and shooting up a room is a bad thing to do. But then simultaneously, the amount of sexual harassment at places like that is so fucking repugnant that any claim that it's not a deeply ingrained (and widespread) issue within the gaming community is like having blinders on.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[LaronX]

Context. Context is everything. A violent psycho being sexist and getting proper reactions in a realistic setting? A okay.

A over the top Conan the babebarien where every man and woman is half naked and seems to only life for combat and sex. Also okay.

An offhand comment belittling the work a woman did in a game about being the good guy? Out of place and character.

Mean, sexist or other comments about the girls look and only that one girls look all game long in a game about something to else? That's just creepy and mean.

It needs to have context to not be just sexism. Imaging in LoZ if you could kill everyone and the game ignores it. You are still the big shiny hero and everyone talks about your great noble heroic spirit. You'd feel a little weird.

Context is important and there is times to use that as a fantasy. However it should be not used as a filler as it often is as it trivialises it. Giving a thing context and setting elevates it from a brain dead comment to something with actual meaning and thought put into it.

 

[FinalAres]

Context. Context is everything. A violent psycho being sexist and getting proper reactions in a realistic setting? A okay.

A over the top Conan the babebarien where every man and woman is half naked and seems to only life for combat and sex. Also okay.

An offhand comment belittling the work a woman did in a game about being the good guy? Out of place and character.

Mean, sexist or other comments about the girls look and only that one girls look all game long in a game about something to else? That's just creepy and mean.

It needs to have context to not be just sexism. Imaging in LoZ if you could kill everyone and the game ignores it. You are still the big shiny hero and everyone talks about your great noble heroic spirit. You'd feel a little weird.

Context is important and there is times to use that as a fantasy. However it should be not used as a filler as it often is as it trivialises it. Giving a thing context and setting elevates it from a brain dead comment to something with actual meaning and thought put into it.

I wrote this with my contextual mind switched off for some reason, which is crazy because context is basically the answer to any big question like this.

 

[Airola]

In video games it is. How many men have you killed versus women playing games?

Reading the first page I started to think about this too.

I'm not too familiar with modern games but I've been under the assumption that most people we usually kill in games are men. I was interested to hear what's the deal with MGSV and other games.

Should games, if they were truly to become "equal" with everything, have more killable female characters too? And I don't mean some dark hyper black magic witches or genius lab doctors turned bad and them being as bosses or minibosses, but regular enemies you can shoot the same way you shoot men (headshots, brains blown out, ragdoll falling down). Or does this already happen in more games than, say, in the GTA games?



If this has been addressed before, sorry, I skipped from the first page to the last because I'm an asshole

 

[RM8]

I'll entertain this silly comparison when it becomes difficult to find games that aren't full Mortal Kombat. Blatant pandering female designs are literally unavoidable in some genres.

 

[Budi]

Reading the first page I started to think about this too.

I'm not too familiar with modern games but I've been under the assumption that most people we usually kill in games are men. I was interested to hear what's the deal with MGSV and other games.

Should games, if they were truly to become "equal" with everything, have more killable female characters too? And I don't mean some dark hyper black magic witches or genius lab doctors turned bad and them being as bosses or minibosses, but regular enemies you can shoot the same way you shoot men (headshots, brains blown out, ragdoll falling down). Or does this already happen in more games than, say, in the GTA games?



If this has been addressed before, sorry, I skipped from the first page to the last because I'm an asshole

Yes absolutely should. Witcher 3 does your GTA example in a way that is supposed to make sense in the context of the world. One part of the world has ingrained sexism in it so women can't act as a city guards for example. But when you go to Skellige, they have their own culture and customs so women can serve as guards. If you start any trouble, you will fight them. Also the elven rebel group Scoiatel has women in their ranks.

Random bandit camps and patrols are all men though, I don't know if this was something they overlooked or is it like that on purpose. Since you can meet few women in sidequests that are part of a bandit group.

 

[ramparter]

Imo it has to do with the state of society we live in. Currently women objectification is a much bigger issue at least in first world countries than violence therefore it will offend more people.

 

[foolishoptimist]

When you say this, you mean it only within the context of the games story, dont you? You must appreciate that like in any other media, lots of straight guys like seeing sexy girls and it makes the game more fun for us.

Yes, I'm talking about context.

You don't care about the context what you're seeing in a game? Is it like the Naked News? You're getting the news, but the anchor is stripping down while presenting, because. you like getting a boner?

Imagine 70% of news programs where like that. 5% had a context, and then a significant segment of the news audience proclaims that 'girls just don't like the news'.

 

[Earthbound64]

We're used to violence in our media, especially in video games. It's basically a cornerstone of dramatic tension and plot movement, and it's been one since antiquity. Bad guy hurts innocent people, good guy kills bad guy is a classic story that everyone is familiar with and is the general skeleton of most video game narratives in my experience. Violence basically serves a narrative purpose.

The same can be said about objectification of women.

Objectification of women doesn't really do that

Except...

It's a lot more of a herculean task

Hercules: The guy who was "given" a woman as a "reward" for military accomplishments, and later on murders her.

 

[Bergerac]

Full disclosure: I didn't read through all of the posts. Regardless, I don't understand how people can state that objectification of women in video games can influence people to objectify women, but violence in video games can't influence people to perform violent acts? If it's the same medium, how is that possible?

Yeah, it doesn't follow logically.

-----------

The correct answer is simple: difference of severity, and the consequences.

As far as difference of severity, it goes without saying. Prejudice is an undesirable, but it's not up there with physical violence or plain murder, for immediacy of severity.

There's a logical argument being put forth here that people wouldn't resort to violence 'after GTA' because they 'know it's wrong', but an implication that they would easily resort to either casual or outright sexism in response to objectification, as if they do not 'know it as wrong'.

Case by case basis, naturally, but for the most part, the bolded is incorrect.

The vast majority of people that would resort to idle sexism in objectification (which is less 'wrong' and more 'hormonal'), or gross sexism, in outright resorting to stating prejudices in general, do it knowing full well that it is wrong.

The difference is that they know they likely aren't facing criminal charges for indulging, in most cases.

Thus, the muzzle comes off.

 

[Venfayth]

Objectification makes more feel people uncomfortable than violence does.

I don't actually think that this makes objectified female characters "not okay" - but creators should be aware of how people feel.

Everyone should be able to have games to play that they are comfortable playing. Representation should increase. I don't think -every game- needs to be comfortable for, and represent -every person-, however.

edit: To elaborate a bit..

Video games are made by humans with experiences, influenced by cultures, based on what they want to make. Representation for a given group of people is best achieved when a person of that group is expressing themselves as an author of a game. This is as opposed to asking authors who may not be unfamiliar with the culture of that group of people to create representation for them. Not that there's anything wrong with such a request, but I think having a diverse crowd of authors creating games is the best environment for creating inclusive experiences for everyone.

 

[Yoshi]

In principle, I have more of a problem with absurd amounts of violence such as in GTA5 (a truly miserable game, both, from this presentational point of view, and the gameplay; imo one of the worst games ever made) than any amount of nudity. However, violence is married to certain gameplay types. Shooting games with moving opponents, stealth games with stealth killing or even platformers with enemies that are supposed to be defeatable require some sort of violence. It does not need the explicitness of most current AAA games, but it actually is coming naturally from the gameplay. I cannot think of any proper gameplay element that benefits from nudity / objectification. Since gameplay is more important than all other game elements combined (by a landslide), I can give most violence more of a pass as justified.

Also, the US society being rather prude and currently having a very strong social movement that tries to change media and language usage in a pursuit to improve the feeling of acceptedness of people in humans/{x| x is a white male cis hetero human of christian or no religion} both might play a role here as well. I think the discussion about Resident Evil 4 with mostly dark skinned enemies to shoot is indicative of violence not getting a free pass in general, but most of the time, violence, different from objectification does not solely target women or any other group that has been disadvantaged by society in some way.

I can live with violence and sexualisation in games, as long as it does not replace or hinder proper gameplay (I still might find it off putting). So I was happy to see the face rubbing time waster removed from Fire Emblem Fates in the west, because it was just shit gameplay being cut. In turn, removing the breast slider from XCX felt like a complete non-issue either way for me and I couldn't help but roll the eyes over people discussing over this minor point that does not interfere with the game one way or the other.

 

[Spectone]

When you shoot a person in a FPS they generally also shoot back. Women in computer games don't objectify back.