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[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I think the problem is that we already are playing games that look like that, and have been doing so for a while.

We need an upgrade.

We haven't played any Nintendo games that have resources like that though.

 

[Kjellson]

Man, Mario games will be awesome on this thing!

 

[sfried]

So the newest PS4 rumours bode semi-well for the wii U if true. Assuming the discrete graphics is the 7670 and the other is the other one. Seems weaker than what people were anticipating. I think 720 rumours were near identical? That's interesting in itself.

Still will be plenty better, just not as much better as people would have hoped I assume.

Let's not turn this into a PS4 comparison/speculation thread. I came hear hoping to see more sensible arguments about what to expect from Wii U.

Re: Comments on the CPU

In almost all real-world in-game scenarios with properly optimised code, the Wii U's CPU should outperform the XBox360's CPU, even if it's clocked as low as ~2.5GHz. That's even ignoring the impact of the dedicated I/O processor and DSP.

As far as I can see, there are three reasons a developer could come away with the impression that the Wii U's CPU is less capable:

1. They're working on early dev-kits.
2. They're working with poorly-optimised middleware.
3. They're not very smart.

Point 1 is very plausible, as not every developer will have the latest round of dev-kits yet, and we know there's a bump in performance with them.

Point 2 is very likely. As wsippel pointed out, there is middleware out there which has seen massive performance improvements on the Wii U over the past few weeks due to optimisation. I've seen the document he's talking about, and as I understand it, said middleware doesn't even make use of the dedicated hardware yet. There's likely to be a lot of other middleware out there which is still unoptimised, and developers who use it and don't know any better will be liable to blame the hardware.

This brings us to point 3. There are a lot of people in the video games business, not all of whom are particularly intelligent. And in my opinion, the ones who leak these sorts of vague stories with trolly comments like the Mario one are much less likely to be intelligent than the sensible ones who keep their mouths shut.

This is logically sound. While unoptimized software if hardly anything new in the industry, I still wonder why someone would publish a claim that would make it sound like Nintendo is selling another underpowered piece of hardware that is even less powerful than the current generation, despite the facts that they would actually have to go out of their way to find dated components to make such a thing, and it completely contradicts what has been confirmed by press releases and even middleware and devkit experiences.

I think WiiU threads need to be banned until concrete news is out.
Its really really shitting the board up.
Even this thread of sanity has been hijacked

I think only threads like "Why is Nintendo always a generation behind?" needs to be banned. That, and all those stupid "Who's jumping ship?" threads. This thread, compared with the rest of GAF, has stayed relatively on track.

 

[KageMaru]

This is a contradiction. Super Mario Galaxy 1/2, for example, are highly impressive. These games are alot closer to an xbox 360 game graphically than anyone thought the wii could do. Nintendo outdone themself on this one. Yes, it dosent look as good as an xbopx 360 game but its very impressive.

SMG are impressive games.....for the hardware. Those games highlight how great art can make a great looking game even with ok tech. Still comparing how close it got to a PS360 game is tricky when we will never know how the game would have looked if it were developed for the PS360.

The fact that they do the best they could with the hardware they have does not mean that they care about graphics. I think the lines here are becoming blurred when we're talking about studios versus hardware engineers.

Or a more radical example:

if my digital watch could run games with N64 graphics, wouldn that be impressive?

That all depends, is there another watch that can run Dreamcast graphics? If so, then no, it's not impressive. That's the exact situation that we saw with the Wii and will likely see again with the Wii-U.

Not directly a response to that sentence, but one thing while Nintendo CAN'T allow themselves to not making money for a generation is because of the investors.

Nintendo only has a Handheld and a stationary gaming console. When the dont make money, the investors wont get money. And you dont want to make your investors mad.

Microsoft and Sony have ALOT of other stuff besides consoles. When they make losses in the gaming department, but can compensate it with the earnings from a department that did well, ther investors will be pleased anyhow. This gives Sony and Microsoft a much bigger opportunity to go "balls to the walls" on the hardware side

I agree with this and have said the same thing within the last few pages. =)

I'm sure it'd make them rethink their strategy (though there is no way they'd ever release a moneysink like the PS3 in the first place), but it wouldn't eat up their warchest or put them in debt. Sony OTOH has billions in debt from several consecutive years of posting losses. (And this is Sony corp rather than just the gaming business.)

Even a modest loss of 2-3 billion could not be done over and over again. I agree that they wouldn't be put in debt or anything, but they couldn't function the way they do now. The video game industry is Nintendo's prime source of earnings, unlike the other 2, so this is why Nintendo must try to remain as profitable in everything they do as possible.

BTW what is their warchest up to?

What is there to discuss when you refuse to believe what named developers say. Like I keep on saying you prefer to believe some unnamed and anonymous source instead of what people like Colin Bonstead and Han Randhawa (people that we definately know have worked on the Wii U and not some anonymous person that may or may not work on the Wii U) say.

Not taking sides but to be fair, there are plenty of people who are cherry picking which quotes to believe. This goes for people who are "for" the Wii-U as well.

Unless you are a developer, Numbers shouldn't mean squat to you and that is the mentality that Nintendo has always had. The only thing that should matter to the end consumer is how Does the game look and how well does it play. Again, this is Nintendo's model.

Long story short, gamers shouldn't care about the specifics, they should only care about the end result.

....It's more than just numbers and there's no reason not to be interested in many aspects of a system. It's not like I care to learn about the system to troll it, so I don't see the issue in me wanting to know the specifics.

Even if we go by the end results, it will still come up short compared to the standard, so either way it doesn't matter.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I think WiiU threads need to be banned until concrete news is out.
Its really really shitting the board up.
Even this thread of sanity has been hijacked

A LOT of threads shit up the board.

If it was a party at my house with a bunch of obnoxious assholes, I would tell them to get out but it's a messageboard.

I don't think there's such a thing as a messageboard getting ruined as the tides will turn sooner or later.

 

[Aostia]

Is the power of the console really that important? I mean if we would get games that looks like Uncharted on WiiU, would that be such a huge disappointment? To me it sounds quite awesome to have that level of graphics while at the same time having a second screen.

I would prefer to have something slighty better the Unchy from a new console, but more or less I agree with you.
To me graphics are important but are just one of the various element that create the "pack" offered by the hardware houses with their consoles.
I will take a look at the price, the graphic power, the lineup, the third party support, the possibilities offered by the tablet and I'll decide if (when?) purchase the console.
Honestly, it's becoming annoying to see all this interest just about horsepower of rumored specs...

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Let's not turn this into a PS4 comparison/speculation thread. I came hear hoping to see more sensible arguments about what to expect from Wii U.

It's a pretty important discussion. We've been discussing what the specs on the competition means for the WiiU's future in all the threads so far.

It's a much better discussion than talking about these stupid fucking rumours that have been taking this thread absolutely nowhere that we've already discussed 100 times over. But hey, carry on folks.

 

[lordfroakie]

I think WiiU threads need to be banned until concrete news is out.
Its really really shitting the board up.
Even this thread of sanity has been hijacked

I think every nextbox and PS4 thread should be banned as well!

 

[DefectiveReject]

A LOT of threads shit up the board.

If it was a party at my house with a bunch of obnoxious assholes, I would tell them to get out but it's a mesageboard.

I don't think there's such a thing as a messageboard gettign ruined as the tides will turn sooner or later.

Meh..... still shitty.
Massive crow will be served either way...

 

[Fredrik]

I think the problem is that we already are playing games that look like that, and have been doing so for a while.

We need an upgrade.

I don't know, I can barely see any difference at all between my games on PS3 and my girl's PC games running in ultra high quality, so personally I don't think it's more power we need. I think the second screen will play a bigger part in the upcoming console war than many may think right now. Having a second screen might end up being a bigger upgrade than having more system power.
Nintendo might fail hard if Sony and MS use tablet controllers too though... Unless they're hiding an ace in their sleeves that makes their tablet better/more fun.

 

[+Aliken+]

I think WiiU threads need to be banned until concrete news is out.
Its really really shitting the board up.
Even this thread of sanity has been hijacked

But isn't a video interview with the director (director right?) of one of the announced games considered as concrete news?

 

[99%]

Mmmmm. Have you got some background info?

Like?

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Honestly, it's becoming annoying to see all this interest just about horsepower of rumored specs...

That will end or lessen for many when they see actual games.

 

[Nibel]

What the fuck is going on in here? Posters posting about posters?

Thraktor and 99% posted interesting stuff and all I see is some people shitting up the thread. Everybody is welcome, but this..?

 

[guek]

Like?

Well you're making an awfully definitive statement there. Are you just speculating or do you have access to information?

 

[ozfunghi]

Like?

You're stating stuff as fact, like you know for 99% certain

So are you just speculating or do you have insider info?

 

[Anth0ny]

I fully expect Nintendo to have at least one title at E3 that totally outclasses every 3rd party effort visually.

 

[blu]

Roger that, sir. I received no notification that you were in-system; have my mission parameters been altered?

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to double the monthly quota for rebel shoot-downs again. You know how Palpatine is - old bugger's been relentlessly on my ass ever since that expensive battle station accident. Gawd, I find it harder with each new day not to toss him down some shaft!

 

[DefectiveReject]

But isn't a video interview with the director (director right?) of one of the announced games considered as concrete news?

True dat.

Maybe we all stop and try and keep stuff in here

Keep it civil how it was. Anyone then starting a thread is obviously being a troll.

 

[guek]

Is the power of the console really that important? I mean if we would get games that looks like Uncharted on WiiU, would that be such a huge disappointment? To me it sounds quite awesome to have that level of graphics while at the same time having a second screen.

Power isn't as important as the ability to run certain features/effects well. Cross-platform portability is the prize Anything else would be gravy. I honestly wouldn't care if it was a repackaged 360 + tablet controller that got nintendo games if it also got multi-plat titles.

 

[MDX]

Good post. Glad to have someone else confirming that document. When I saw the latest batch of negative problems, I immediately thought of the optimization issue that the wsippel shared with us.

Did any of the developers state that the issue could stem from not optimizing their code for the WiiU? If not, then Im calling it fake. Because a developer should know that. These are consoles. Plenty of reputable newspapers had liars for journalists working for them making up stories just to keep their jobs.

I recall once reading an anti-wii article and it turned out the developer never made a game for Nintendo. They were basically Sony exclusive. Yet the journo never pointed that out.

Nintendo would not make a half-assed HD console like the 360 or PS3. They know they need to come up with the good.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

What if Retro made the coolest looking and playing and thought-up puzzle game of all time???

One that was a new benchmark of the genre.

Would people be pissed???

 

[test_account]

Sony, EA and others have paid shills and viral marketers to post on forums like this one -- we know that, that is a FACT.

Do you have some links to this? I want to read it =)

 

[HylianTom]

That will end or lessen for many when they see actual games.

Pretty much. Once Nintendo finally unveils whatever games secrets it's been working on, this specs discussion will be diluted, at least somewhat.

 

[ColdBlooder]

I agree with this and have said the same thing within the last few pages. =)

Sorry, didnt read it until way later and then this new sh*tstorm broke loose and im quite tired from a long day (9:20pm here as im writing this)

Is there a watch with 2 displays?

 

[ColdBlooder]

I fully expect Nintendo to have at least one title at E3 that totally outclasses every 3rd party effort visually.

Mee too I would really not expect any third party game to look better than any xbox360 or ps3 game. Only Nintendo and/or their 2nd party developers (Retro) would have the dev kits and newest dev kits long enough to do something visually outstanding!

 

[99%]

You're stating stuff as fact, like you know for 99% certain

So are you just speculating or do you have insider info?

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I've seen ideas, man, and you are no Idea, Man.

 

[Azure J]

Who was the person who brought up the hypothetical situation where two competitors stayed within range of one another to stay port buddies and force the third into a situation where going top end was bad again? I could swear I saw that discussion in this thread. Reason I'm asking is because of the new IGN PS4 "specs" leak. It'd be exceedingly interesting to see that come to fruition but I trust brain_stew a lot more than some folks and he's already stated an APU like design but with a far superior Southern Islands GPU.

Edit: No one made a "99 Problems" joke yet?

Spoiler

Real talk man, be careful, people get banned for much less than winking and nudging and juniors don't get a second chance.

 

[stupidvillager]

Can someone in the know help me out on something. The statement ."it doesnt have as many shaders" seems to me to be kinda out there. I'm mean, its not like comparing conventional GPUS. Even comparing AMD to Nvidia isnt as easy as just the shader count. The 360 and PS3 dont have the same shaders correct? They are not even coventional shaders are they? So to come out and say the Wii U doesnt have as many, just doesnt seem right. I am I way off on this?

 

[HylianTom]

Who was the person who brought up the hypothetical situation where two competitors stayed within range of one another to stay port buddies and force the third into a situation where going top end was bad again? I could swear I saw that discussion in this thread. Reason I'm asking is because of the new IGN PS4 "specs" leak. It'd be exceedingly interesting to see that come to fruition but I trust brain_stew a lot more than some folks and he's already stated an APU like design but with a far superior Southern Islands GPU.

Edit: No one made a "99 Problems" joke yet?

Spoiler

Real talk man, be careful, people get banned for much less than winking and nudging and juniors don't get a second chance.

I know I've brought-up the possibility of that kind of "boxxing-out" scenario, but others have done so much more eloquently.

 

[lednerg]

Here's the thing about developers - or people from any profession - they aren't all equally good at their jobs. The ones who aren't so good aren't going to necessarily realize it, much less admit it. However, you can usually spot them easily because they'll be the one's complaining ("hmph, typical weak Nintendo hardware") rather than accepting responsibility ("this engine we made years ago isn't optimized for this hardware's feature set"). They'll also be the ones more likely to say nonsensical, fanboy-ish phrases ("not enough shaders" or "the graphics aren't as powerful" or "we could do this with PS3+Vita").

To take all developers' impressions as being equal is always a mistake, especially when they're anonymous - because then you have no clue as to their qualifications. We don't know if they're guys who just came from coding an IOS fart app or are trying to get Wii U to run vanilla OpenGL or what. There's absolutely no context to be found in their statements.

The regulars in this thread take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. Doesn't matter what the news is, if it paints Wii U as some beast or not. I don't think outsiders to this thread realize this; they tend to come in here and assume we're just in a big circle jerk. We don't believe that it's "5x the 360" or whatever horseshit IGN said a while back. We're just the gaffers who have seen ALL of the info out there and have worked to come up with the most realistic expectations for the system possible.

So please, quit acting like it's us against you. We don't have unreasonable expectations for the device to begin with. If you just ask what we think instead of assume, you won't get jumped on for being an ignorant troll.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Tell us more 99%

 

[Forsaken82]

....It's more than just numbers and there's no reason not to be interested in many aspects of a system. It's not like I care to learn about the system to troll it, so I don't see the issue in me wanting to know the specifics.

Even if we go by the end results, it will still come up short compared to the standard, so either way it doesn't matter.

If it comes up short it comes up short. You won't need numbers to make that assumption however. All numbers do is create a placebo effect which causes nothing but bad press. It is an unnecessary evil that the community blows wayyyyyy out of proportion.

 

[ozfunghi]

The funny thing is, that the negative comments are even contradicting each other. One dev says: "GPU has not enough many moar shaders". The other say: "GPU is not the problem, it's the CPU".

 

[capslock]

Here's the thing about developers - or people from any profession - they aren't all equally good at their jobs. The ones who aren't so good aren't going to admit to it or even necessarily realize it. They'll be the first to complain ("hmph, typical weak Nintendo hardware") than to accept any responsibility ("this engine we made years ago isn't optimized for this hardware's feature set"). They'll also be the ones to say nonsensical phrases like "not enough shaders" or "the graphics aren't as powerful" or "we could do this with PS3+Vita" and so on.

To take all developers' impressions as being equal is always a mistake, especially when they're anonymous - because then you have no clue as to their qualifications. We don't know if they're guys who just came from coding an IOS fart app or are trying to get Wii U to run vanilla OpenGL or what. There's absolutely no context to be found in their statements.

The regulars in this thread take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. Doesn't matter what the news is, if it paints Wii U as some beast or not. I don't think outsiders to this thread realize this; they tend to come in here and assume we're just in a big circle jerk. We don't believe that it's "5x the 360" or whatever horseshit IGN said a while back. We're just the gaffers who have seen ALL of the info out there and have worked to come up with the most realistic expectations for the system possible.

So please, quit acting like it's us against you. We don't have unreasonable expectations for the device to begin with. If you just ask what we think instead of assume, you won't get jumped on for being an ignorant troll.

I think this post is on the right track. Pretty much the consensus emerging is that Wii U is likely a fair bit more "powerful" than the current gen consoles but not so powerful that you can throw PS3 and XBox game codes at it like it's a fucking emulator and expect it to run efficiently.

Like Grendel said, developers who are doing their homework are probably finding it pretty decent.

Makes sense.

 

[OmegaZero]

The funny thing is, that the negative comments are even contradicting each other. One dev says: "GPU has not enough many moar shaders". The other say: "GPU is not the problem, it's the CPU".

Which is why I'm choosing to just sit back and wait till E3.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

I think this post is on the right track. Pretty much the consensus emerging is that Wii U is likely a fair bit more "powerful" than the current gen consoles but not so powerful that you can throw PS3 and XBox game codes at it like it's a fucking emulator and expect it to run efficiently.

Why would they expect to though? I'm sure people are saying the PS4 will struggle to emulate PS3 games if it doesn't contain a cell processor.

 

[guek]

Who was the person who brought up the hypothetical situation where two competitors stayed within range of one another to stay port buddies and force the third into a situation where going top end was bad again? I could swear I saw that discussion in this thread. Reason I'm asking is because of the new IGN PS4 "specs" leak. It'd be exceedingly interesting to see that come to fruition but I trust brain_stew a lot more than some folks and he's already stated an APU like design but with a far superior Southern Islands GPU.

Edit: No one made a "99 Problems" joke yet?

Spoiler

Real talk man, be careful, people get banned for much less than winking and nudging and juniors don't get a second chance.

it's an interesting scenario for sure. In a way, MS and Sony attempted to do something similar to nintendo this gen (though it was probably inadvertent). Nintendo stuck around like a bad case of herpes. Maybe it's time to try it the other way?

I see Japan being a huge potential problem for Sony though. They've lost a lot of mindshare back home to nintendo, and the PS3 simply did not turn out to be the platform japanese devs hoped it would be. It's possible that they'll get edged out of Japan by nintendo and America by MS while remaining relevant but lacking dominance in Europe.

 

[capslock]

Why would they expect to though? I'm sure people are saying the PS4 will struggle to emulate PS3 games if it doesn't contain a cell processor.

Well, I am exaggerating. I mean if developers are lazy about optimizing code for Wii U they obviously won't see good results. Like that CPU/Audio post someone made above.

 

[HylianTom]

it's an interesting scenario for sure. In a way, MS and Sony attempted to do something similar to nintendo this gen (though it was probably inadvertent). Nintendo stuck around like a bad case of herpes. Maybe it's time to try it the other way?

I see Japan being a huge potential problem for Sony though. They've lost a lot of mindshare back home to nintendo, and the PS3 simply did not turn out to be the platform japanese devs hoped it would be. It's possible that they'll get edged out of Japan by nintendo and America by MS while remaining relevant but lacking dominance in Europe.

That, and if most other things are near-equal in the hearts and minds of Japanese shoppers, I see that uPad as making a measurable difference in who comes-out on top.. which could be crucial when determining who gets the bulk of Japanese developer support.

 

[Sagitario]

So no major overhaul as we've seen with the Wii Remote ergonomics? Zoonami helped with the Wii Remote overhaul.

Super late with this, but I am curious: what exactly did Zoonami do?

 

[Christine]

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to double the monthly quota for rebel shoot-downs again. You know how Palpatine is - old bugger's been relentlessly on my ass ever since that expensive battle station accident. Gawd, I find it harder with each new day not to toss him down some shaft!

I'm getting some cross-talk. Is this a secure channel?

It's going to be damn hard to meet those objectives considering the sharp drop-off in rebel activity for this sector. If I didn't know better, I'd think that they were consolidating their resources for a major assault--but it's ludicrous to even consider that they'd meet our fleets in open battle given the force disparity.

Nevertheless, I'm well aware of your command policy concerning excuses and apologies. My team will re-double their efforts.

 

[jacksrb]

What the fuck is going on in here? Posters posting about posters?

Thraktor and 99% posted interesting stuff and all I see is some people shitting up the thread. Everybody is welcome, but this..?

Exactly! This thread has gone to poop over the last few days (not that I can resist from paging through, but still), with the oasis being the photoshop stuff related to the E3 OP.

As always, if everyone would read the OP then I think that would ground a lot of the discussions. I am onboard with the OP info - but would say that nothing will be definitive until E3 and some not until the dang thing comes out. I love the speculation, but when people speak in absolutes or the need to have absolutes to believe a genuine poster - it is a vicious cycle.

That said, I really loved watching the initial game reveal montage trailers for the Gamecube and Wii, and can't wait to see the one in June for the Wii U.

 

[DragonKnight]

Which is why I'm choosing to just sit back and wait till E3.

After all this bullshit, I'm doing the same thing. The issue is clearly lack of parity between what developers have what kits and unoptimized middleware.

 

[guek]

That, and if most other things are near-equal in the hearts and minds of Japanese shoppers, I see that uPad as making a measurable difference in who comes-out on top.. which could be crucial when determining who gets the bulk of Japanese developer support.

I think it was itagaki that made the comment that after seeing the upad in person, he feels it was made specifically with the japanese market in mind. I think the idea is that multiple tvs are very uncommon in japanese households, which makes the upad ideal for uninterupted gaming.

 

[AceBandage]

I'm getting some cross-talk. Is this a secure channel?

It's going to be damn hard to meet those objectives considering the sharp drop-off in rebel activity for this sector. If I didn't know better, I'd think that they were consolidating their resources for a major assault--but it's ludicrous to even consider that they'd meet our fleets in open battle given the force disparity.

Nevertheless, I'm well aware of your command policy concerning excuses and apologies. My team will re-double their efforts.

HanSolodance.gif

 

[Error Macro]

If the Upad somehow gets the Japanese developers back on a console, then that would be fantastic. I'm of the mind that this generation has been pretty terrible due to the Western-centric approach of the console market. Japanese games just seem to have a certain something to them--the atmosphere, music, attention to detail, etc. that makes them more appealing to me. And I'm not even a fan of RPGs. The games that I have fond memories of mostly came from a time when consoles were dominated by the East.

I say all this as a big FPS fan, and a fan of Western developers... when they were developing for PC, that is (pre-2006). Things completely changed when all the PC devs switched over to consoles.

 

[stupidvillager]

Havent seen this on here yet. Sorry if I overlooked it.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/04/gearbox-boss-says-impressive-wii-u-a-really-nice-bridge-to-the/

Sounds to me like he likes the specs. Dont think that would happen if it was less powerful than current systems. He also calls it a "bridge". Which to me implies in between current and the next systems from MS and Sony.

 

[TheCongressman1]

One thing -- the point of the back ridge is so the controller can rest on top of your fingers and reduce strain holding the thing. That's why it's flat under the ridge:

http://i.imgur.com/ysli3.jpg[/ img]

The curved underside of your ridge might make the controller more fatiguing to hold.

Otherwise it's damn sexy. Saved.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Also, I changed that just a bit.

[QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/TheCongressman1/Art/u-controller-redesign-2.png

I don't really think it needs that much of a lip as the original, but there's no way of knowing without a physical mockup.