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Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

So... what, this may not be relevant today?

Virgil was undoubtely one of the first to receive a dev kit. The first dev kit may used "off the shelf" parts that resembled the the final architecture the closest and was alot closer to the Xbox 360 then the final silicon.

So early dev kit with off the shelf parts (underpowered) -> porting xbox 360 stuff was easy

Dev kits with final sillicon -> porting from xbox 360 wasnt as easy anymore, the chips differed way more then the "off the shelf" parts used in the early dev kits.

Now the devs struggle with the completely new architecture.

So yeah, all the crap we read the last few days isnt relevant anymore IF that is what happened!
 
How could you not like Star Fox 64?

It's too bad they haven't made a Star Fox game since then =(

Yes they did:

Kid_Icarus-Uprising_logo.jpg
 
Yes they did:

Kid_Icarus-Uprising_logo.jpg

A billion times better than any Star Fox game ever created, at that.

Virgil was undoubtely one of the first to receive a dev kit. The first dev kit may used "off the shelf" parts that resembled the the final architecture the closest and was alot closer to the Xbox 360 then the final silicon.

So early dev kit with off the shelf parts (underpowered) -> porting xbox 360 stuff was easy

Dev kits with final sillicon -> porting from xbox 360 wasnt as easy anymore, the chips differed way more then the "off the shelf" parts used in the early dev kits.

Now the devs struggle with the completely new architecture.

So yeah, all the crap we read the last few days isnt relevant anymore IF that is what happened!



This, I think, is a reason that we heard Nintendo was testing popular third party engines, and optimizing them themselves. Also why we're seeing so many middlewares being licensed by Nintendo and given out for free. They can make and send out already optimized software for devs.
 

AzaK

Member
I really wonder about that. Many middleware solutions weren't even available on the system three months ago, and are buggy as hell to this day. That engine performing like ass until recently? Darksiders 2 uses it.

As I said, I'm not too worried - yet - but it's hard to forget the "the wii hardware is too different to port to" excuses/reasons from last gen.

BTW: Are you able to tell us what other middleware engine crashed until recently and/or was it audio/graphics/something else?
 

BY2K

Membero Americo
This, I think, is a reason that we heard Nintendo was testing popular third party engines, and optimizing them themselves. Also why we're seeing so many middlewares being licensed by Nintendo and given out for free. They can make and send out already optimized software for devs.

Huh?

When you say middleware, what exactly are we talking about here?
 

Redford

aka Cabbie
Hey man, I bought Golden Sun DD a while back. It's not bad, but it's so... generic. I think it's biggest flaw is the fact it's a typical RPG and it's pretty content with that. Animal Crossing isn't my cup of tea. Played the GC version.

That is a fair assessment. Have you played the GBA instalments? The games get praised for really pushing the hardware. Basically the series had amazing production value in its day. However I can see why someone with more RPG experience wouldn't care for it.
 

StevieP

Banned
As I said, I'm not too worried - yet - but it's hard to forget the "the wii hardware is too different to port to" excuses/reasons from last gen.

BTW: Are you able to tell us what other middleware engine crashed until recently and/or was it audio/graphics/something else?

Phoenix Engine, by his last post. (i.e. Darksiders/Warhammer/Devil's Third/etc)

lol @ 3,7mm²/core. I think this explains why they are staying with 45nm, they couldn't even pin out a smaller chip :)

If it's a PPC4xx there'd better be more than 3 of them lol
 
A billion times better than any Star Fox game ever created, at that.





This, I think, is a reason that we heard Nintendo was testing popular third party engines, and optimizing them themselves. Also why we're seeing so many middlewares being licensed by Nintendo and given out for free. They can make and send out already optimized software for devs.

Yeah I said that a little while ago.
Its why I'm tending to believe poor devs are shitting on the console.

Maybe unreal and what not was fine, but devs using the others where struggling, so Nintendo bought universal licenses and will optimize the engine and send it out so no one spoils the coming out party.

Could be why we have no stuff being shown as they don't want crap being shown and the media mocking it.
 

nordique

Member
There was somebody that recently stated, in a completely unrelated thread, that the Wii U is NOT SMT and that it was single-threaded... I balked at first, because I thought we'd heard here that it was.
But...

I was under the impression that, with what has been "leaked" from insiders,

that the CPU is essentially a tri-core, 2 SMT, OoOE CPU with 3MB of asymmetrically divided L2 cache, in essence.

Also wasn't this already debunked to be the Wii U CPU? (the links you've posted?)

I'm not saying you're incorrect or may not be onto something; this may very well be the CPU; but I was under the impression it is not this after it was looked into a bit more
 

Sadist

Member
That is a fair assessment. Have you played the GBA instalments? The games get praised for really pushing the hardware. Basically the series had amazing production value in its day. However I can see why someone with more RPG experience wouldn't care for it.
I only played the first GBA game. I prefer it over DD, but yeah, I wasn't blown away by it either. But it's been years since I last played GS on GBA.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
It's possible that the CPU included in the first dev kits wasn't OoO but in-order, like a variant of IBM Watermoose/Xenon as it was believed 10 months ago, and therefore it may be a source of supposed problems encountered by some companies when porting their middleware solutions to the available Wii U Out of Order CPU.

I've said in an earlier post:

This could come from a lot of parameters, like the Out Of Order nature of this CPU in comparison to In Order. Maybe these middleware solutions are requiring the execution of a code sequentially in a specific order, and the Wii U CPU try to reschedule this sequence in a way it think it's more optimal, like an OoO CPU should do, but in the end, the results are worse because of this CPU initiative than if the code was executed as planned, in a certain order. Maybe there's something in the IBM Wii U CPU that constitute an hindrance in quick "conversion" of a software from a In-Order architecture to a OoO one. I'm not an expert on this, but really, it just seems that a lot of these supposed bad news come from a struggle of certain ported software on this CPU without optimizations tailored for its specificities.

Some techies hindsights may be welcomed here, about the easiness or not to move for a software from in-order to OoO, etc.
 

Thraktor

Member
It's possible that the CPU included in the first dev kits wasn't OoO but in-order, like a variant of IBM Watermoose/Xenon as it was believed 10 months ago, and therefore it may be a source of supposed problems encountered by some companies when porting their middleware solutions to the available Wii U Out of Order CPU.

I've said in an earlier post:



Some techies hindsights may be welcomed here, about the easiness or not to move for a software from in-order to OoO, etc.

Out of order execution doesn't require different code, and won't have any negative effects on code designed for an in-order CPU. It's likely that the Wii U CPU has a slightly different instruction set and different AltiVec units, and coders would need to get the hang of these to get code running well on the system. For instance, if you were to try to run an instruction for the PS360 CPUs' AltiVec unit on Wii U CPU's AltiVec unit, it could well either run significantly slower or just straight crash the game.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Concerning the Wii U release date

Retailers now saying the 18th is correct
Several of our retail sources in North America have now confirmed that which we already seem to know, which is that Nintendo is launching the Wii U on November 18th for the North American market.

The retailers that we spoke with said it isn’t surprising that Nintendo has selected a Sunday launch date, as the company has in the past seemed to always gravitate toward Sunday releases. According to what we are hearing, some of the bigger stores are already planning a midnight launch for the system.

Nintendo has not officially confirmed the date to anyone yet, but with retailers already talking about a launch on the 18th, it does seem all but assured at this point. No word yet on what kind of inventory levels buyers should expect for the new system, or exactly what games will be available at launch. Expect to hear more about this at E3 in June.

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/26661-wii-u-release-confirmed

Big grain of salt & all of course but it could further nurture the speculation around the launch date :p
 
But this CPU issue, wich we discovered, could explain the contradicting responses from the devs.

Gearbox may is alot farther in understanding how it works and what it can do, so they say "WiiU has a really great CPU" and devs that are just starting to work with it (or are incompetent... Just to cover all bases) may still have performance issues due to the different architecture and say "its not powerful" because of that...
 

HeySeuss

Member
But this CPU issue, wich we discovered, could explain the contradicting responses from the devs.

Gearbox may is alot farther in understanding how it works and what it can do, so they say "WiiU has a really great CPU" and devs that are just starting to work with it (or are incompetent... Just to cover all bases) may still have performance issues due to the different architecture and say "its not powerful" because of that...
I think this is the most likely explanation. They straight ported their engines and they struggle to run smoothly and the devs haven't figured out the tricks yet to work the kinks out.
 

StevieP

Banned
But this CPU issue, wich we discovered, could explain the contradicting responses from the devs.

Gearbox may is alot farther in understanding how it works and what it can do, so they say "WiiU has a really great CPU" and devs that are just starting to work with it (or are incompetent... Just to cover all bases) may still have performance issues due to the different architecture and say "its not powerful" because of that...

A tri-core single-threaded PPC4xx would certainly explain that lol. The newer versions of it are more modern variants than the PPE would be, do some things better (dynamic branch prediction, OoO, etc) but in terms of sheer horsepower it's not quite there.

The timeframe would also be similar to that of the design of the GPU. (2009-2011)
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Out of order execution doesn't require different code, and won't have any negative effects on code designed for an in-order CPU. It's likely that the Wii U CPU has a slightly different instruction set and different AltiVec units, and coders would need to get the hang of these to get code running well on the system. For instance, if you were to try to run an instruction for the PS360 CPUs' AltiVec unit on Wii U CPU's AltiVec unit, it could well either run significantly slower or just straight crash the game.

Yeah i wasn't talking about a re-writing of the code, more of a non-easy non-developer-friendly status of the OoO nature of the CPU, an hindrance that could exist at a specific time during its designing (or the software toolkits to use it), like a weird and inefficient-for-the-moment way to execute code planned initially for in-order CPU. A problem in the rescheduling of the sequence of instructions of some software. But i guess Nintendo & IBM would have spot such things before making it available to studios in their dev kits.

And AltiVex units, it's like VMX right ?
 
Havok (physics) Autodesk (UI) and then there was a debug one as well.

Autodesk Gameware is more than just UI. If I recall, Nintendo Liscensed scaleform, HumanIK and Kynapse which are UI, Animation and AI respectively(which i assume means they have their own lighting solution since beast was apparently not licensed)
 

HylianTom

Banned
Concerning the Wii U release date

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/26661-wii-u-release-confirmed

Big grain of salt & all of course but it could further nurture the speculation around the launch date :p

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm very much inclined to believe it, but I'm not quite filing my vacation paperwork at work just yet.

If there's a really spectacular game for launch, I might be looking at a whole week off. Otherwise, it'll just be a five-day weeked. Last time around (with the Wii), I took a week off and listed the reason on my paperwork as: "Vacation in Hyrule."
 
How could you not like Star Fox 64?

It's too bad they haven't made a Star Fox game since then =(

Yeah, as long as they (FINALLY) give us an on-rails only follow up in HD I'll be happy.

Cool to see Earthbound (never happen but still) and Metroid ranked high. Have no idea why IGN bothered to include DK and Kirby. Boo-this gif to the people who ranked StarTropics last.
 

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
Thanks for the heads-up. I'm very much inclined to believe it, but I'm not quite filing my vacation paperwork at work just yet.

If there's a really spectacular game for launch, I might be looking at a whole week off. Otherwise, it'll just be a five-day weeked. Last time around (with the Wii), I took a week off and listed the reason on my paperwork as: "Vacation in Hyrule."

lol
And no remarks from your bosses ? Maybe they thought it was a real place !
 

MDX

Member
The CPU in the WiiU will be a customized Power7.
IBM has basically confirmed this.

Whatever was or is in the devkits can be a whole other story.
They might be not wholly representative what ends up in the box.
 

StevieP

Banned
The CPU in the WiiU will be a customized Power7.
IBM has basically confirmed this.

Whatever was or is in the devkits can be a whole other story.
They might be not wholly representative what ends up in the box.

From ArsTechnica, last June:
Henriok said:
IBM has three known Power Architecture cores in current development: A2 (PowerEN and BlueGene/Q), POWER7 and PowerPC 470 (PPC 476 embedded SoC cores). The first two are high frequency 32/64-bit multithreaded cores, the latter is low power/frequency 32-bit. All three cores are designed for multicore, integrated memory controllers, custom accelerators and all have been known to work with eDRAM. A2 and 470 is designed to be highly customizable and are readily available for licensing.

All three are Power Architecture cores. A2 and POWER7 use Power ISA 2.06, PPC 470 use v.2.05. These are both is modern Power Architecture instruction set (Not "POWER", IBM abandoned the POWER ISA more than a decade ago to go all in on PowerPC, which was later renamed Power Architecture), and migrating from GameCube/Wii to Wii U should be trivial. It's the same basic instruction set, just instructions added. It would be like migrating from a Pentium II to a Core i7.

The Wii U processor won't be of the same direct lineage as Gekko and Broadway since IBM discontinued development of PPC 750 (G3) cores after the Broadway (in Wii), but that would matter little for the basic instruction set. All other modern Power Architecture cores are substantially more efficient than PPC 750.

My take on it is that if Wii U is 64-bit, it's based on A2. If it remains 32-bit, it's based on PowerPC 476. My money is on the former. It won't be based on POWER7 since A2 is a much better fit if you want a high frequency, high performance, customizable, multithreaded, multicore, embeddable, 64-bit Power Architecture core. Refitting the POWER7 core to essentially be a A2 core would be strange when the A2 already exists.

That said. Nintendo and IBM could be sitting on an entirely new custom Power Architecture core, previously unknown. They certainly have had the time to develop one. But that seems implausible since Nintendo previously have been using what's essentially off the shelf parts with minor customization.

The statement that it's based on the same technology as Watson, will be correct even if they keep the same CPU as they already are using in the current Wii. It's all Power Architecture, and a marketing spin. Watson was the latest processor related story from IBM that went mainstream, so.. that's why it's mentioned.


Update: The A2 core is essentially a continuation of the path they took with the PPE in Cell and Xeon. It's the next generation. So If the Wii U CPU is a 3-core 3.2 GHz processor, it would be more or less on par with the Xenon CPU in Xbox 360. But it'd probably gain performance due to freakishly large eDRAM and newer generation GPU technology. The Wii U could very well be more powerful than the Xbox 360.

Don't know how much relevance it holds here, but it gives you more to discuss.
 
It's not about being in the know, but Nintendo home consoles launch in November, there are only so many sundays before Black Friday, and the 18th just works out better in terms of marketing and hype than earlier Sundays.
 
It's not about being in the know, but Nintendo home consoles launch in November, there are only so many sundays before Black Friday, and the 18th just works out better in terms of marketing and hype than earlier Sundays.


True. Though I'm still hoping for an earlier launch. I hate having to fight holiday madness.
You're thinking of me. I'm very much in the know.

Yes, but what you know only serves to frighten small children.
 
Plus, 18th allows them to split the launch shipment in two and maintain momentum in to black friday.

Sell out at launch, send another shipment that week, be fully stocked for Black Friday with hype of "the sold out Nintendo system" at their backs.
 

Thraktor

Member
A tri-core single-threaded PPC4xx would certainly explain that lol. The newer versions of it are more modern variants than the PPE would be, do some things better (dynamic branch prediction, OoO, etc) but in terms of sheer horsepower it's not quite there.

The timeframe would also be similar to that of the design of the GPU. (2009-2011)

The middleware document which myself and wsippel have seen clearly states that the middleware is now running about as well on the Wii U's CPU as it does on the XBox360's. There's no way that a 3-core PPC4xx could achieve anywhere near that (and this is code which wouldn't benefit in any meaningful way from OoOE).

Yeah i wasn't talking about a re-writing of the code, more of a non-easy non-developer-friendly status of the OoO nature of the CPU, an hindrance that could exist at a specific time during its designing (or the software toolkits to use it), like a weird and inefficient-for-the-moment way to execute code planned initially for in-order CPU. A problem in the rescheduling of the sequence of instructions of some software. But i guess Nintendo & IBM would have spot such things before making it available to studios in their dev kits.

And AltiVex units, it's like VMX right ?

The thing is, the entire way that out-of-order instruction pipelines are designed is that they do the entire out-of-order thing automatically in a way which is logically equivalent to an in-order processor (ie the exact same instructions are run with the exact same outcomes, but the order in which they're computed is sometimes changed to speed things up). This means that an out-of-order processor will never be slower than an otherwise identical in-order processor at running the same code. It might be faster, it might take exactly the same amount of time, but it'll never be slower.

Of more relevance is the fact that the instruction set will probably be quite different from those of the Cell and Xenon. Console CPUs generally have highly customised instruction sets, with extra instructions to handle whatever tasks the designers deem important. Hence, code which relies on custom instructions on Xenon may either run poorly or not at all on the Wii U CPU. AltiVec (yep, like VMX) is one such area, as Xenon has a highly customised variant of the VMX AltiVec unit, and it's quite possible that the Wii U CPU is using a customised version of the more modern VSX AltiVec unit. They'll have broadly the same functionality, but different instruction sets and data-formatting rules would mean there would be a bit of a learning curve in terms of getting code intended for the XBox360 to run well on the Wii U.
 

Oddduck

Member
Still not getting people who declare that Metroid is dead. I will enjoy Retro's Prime 4.

I don't think Metroid is dead.

But I question whether it's still a main priority at Nintendo compared to other franchises that have sold better.

What gives me hope for Metroid is the Battle Mii demo for Wii U.
 
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