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Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

I

IdeaMan

My source is my ass!
HylianTom said:
I know that if Nintendo ever wants to change back to some sort of solid state physical media for their games in the future, my heart will not be the least bit broken. Fewer moving parts? Yes please!

Every time I hear my Wii clicking as it loads from a disc, I cringe a bit in fear that something has gone terribly wrong. :(
Click to expand...

This !

We need cartridges back ! And i mean real cartridges, high-tech versions of course, but not the ultra tiny SD cards !

With the possibility to add embedded processors like the Super FX to boost the system capabilities for certain games.

Total silence ! Faster loading times !!!!

And, and...the contact with the object itself, the feel of the material, the art sticker on it, the plastic odor, mmhhhh

Seriously, the Neo Geo cartridges are just... And the Killer Instinct black one ! Or the N64 ones with their lovely top curve ! When we first opened the Turok box and took the cartridge out for our first review on the system, it smelt POWA !

okay, i must confess, i'm a cartridge-addict :(
 
H

Hero of Legend

Member
I'm just keeping things in check and simply wait for E3 except for anything that is from an official source (such as Maximum Family Games making a Wii U racer, I wonder if it's a port of Sledgehammer (Truckz) on 360 or a port of Armageddon Riders on PSN from the same dev, I'd take the later, seems cooler, oh, and both were PC games prior...).

Edit: Call me a Cartridge on a Pear Tree as well, by now they should have the capacity to make ones with a lot of memory, just insert them like a VHS (or like a giant SD Card) and no worries of dust.
 
D

DefectiveReject

Banned
ColdBlooder said:
I really want to start a rumor about something, let everyone report it and then come out a week later and say: "Haha, it was me! Folled you all!"

Just to prove how easy you can get those "journalists" to report something...

I would spread the rumor that the Xbox720 forces you to use Kinect on its dashboard to save battery on the new controller,. because the HD screen uses so much of it :D
Click to expand...

Already on the case. The email will go out shortly
I've tried to be a little clever so it should work. We'll find out I guess

Anyone want to be the BCC on them
If it does work I'd like someone to be able to varify
 
R

Roo

Member
hatchx said:
Serious question:


How much development time/resources does it take to turn an older game into an HD remix?
Click to expand...

7-9 months...
1 year tops..
I think it all depends on how old the game is..in case they have to re-do the whole game from scratch or just add some high quality textures and polygons here and there
 
O

Oddduck

Member
lwilliams3 said:
It does appear so. In comparison, the 3G Vita BoM was estimated at close to $160, and its in retail for $300.
Click to expand...

So just a small question to better understand this bill of materials stuff.

How much do you guys think it costs Microsoft to make the Xbox 360 right now?

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-4GB-...EE4U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1333920104&sr=8-4

A Xbox 360 4GB with Kinect is $300 (and it's currently $257 with the current discount) at Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003O6JKLC/?tag=neogaf0e-20

An Xbox 360 (4GB) without Kinect is around $200.

How much do people think it costs for the materials Microsoft uses to make the 360 and Kinect? And how much do you think shipping, packaging, assembly, inventory costs, marketing costs are?

Also take into account that we've heard nothing about the Wii U having a harddrive or DVD player/Bluray player which will keep costs down even more.

This fall, if Microsoft dropped the price of the 4GB XBox 360 to $150 (without Kinect)...then BOM for the 360 will probably be around $100 or less.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
lwilliams3 said:
It does appear so. In comparison, the 3G Vita BoM was estimated at close to $160, and its in retail for $300.
Click to expand...
Yep. And one should be able to build something pretty nifty with that much money, too. $130 for the console itself, just for the components (might or might not include case, cooler assembly, PCB and PSU), isn't half bad.
 
A

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
Sagitario said:
Needs also a nunchuck, so Wiimote+nunchuck still would be an available, accessible and most importantly, default [if needed] control method.
Click to expand...


I would love different SKUs (with remote + nunchak or not; with HDD or not and so on), so anyone can choose his preferite version.
I have already three remoteplus + two nunchaks, plus 4 CC (one normal and three pro), so I would love to save (I don't know: 29 USD?) and buying the "normal" version.

Oddduck said:
So just a small question to better understand this bill of materials stuff.

How much do you guys think it costs Microsoft to make the Xbox 360 right now?

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-4GB-...EE4U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1333920104&sr=8-4

A Xbox 360 4GB with Kinect is $300 (and it's currently $257 with the current discount) at Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003O6JKLC/?tag=neogaf0e-20

An Xbox 360 (4GB) without Kinect is around $200.

How much do people think it costs for the materials Microsoft uses to make the 360 and Kinect? And how much do you think shipping, packaging, assembly, inventory costs, marketing costs are?

Also take into account that we've heard nothing about the Wii U having a harddrive or DVD player/Bluray player which will keep costs down even more.

This fall, if Microsoft dropped the price of the 4GB XBox 360 to $150 (without Kinect)...then BOM for the 360 will probably be around $100 or less.
Click to expand...


Hard to say. Especially without knowing MS markup.
Looking at that leaked rumor, it seems that the BOM for Kinect is around 57 USD. How much does Kinect pack cost retail? could it be more than 100 USD? I don't remember.
I'm quiet confident that if MS will cut the price of 360 without Kinect at 150, the BOM will be around 50-60 USD (just the BOM, without packaging, assembling, taxes and so on)



wsippel said:
Yep. And one should be able to build something pretty nifty with that much money, too. $130 for the console itself, just for the components (might or might not include case, cooler assembly, PCB and PSU), isn't half bad.
Click to expand...

I agree.
Obviously not a top top PC-like graphic powerhorse, but a very decent HW. I don't look at this rumor as the worst rumor possible, honestly.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Oddduck said:
So just a small question to better understand this bill of materials stuff.

How much do you guys think it costs Microsoft to make the Xbox 360 right now?

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-4GB-...EE4U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1333920104&sr=8-4

A Xbox 360 4GB with Kinect is $300 (and it's currently $257 with the current discount) at Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003O6JKLC/?tag=neogaf0e-20

An Xbox 360 (4GB) without Kinect is around $200.

How much do people think it costs for the materials Microsoft uses to make the 360 and Kinect? And how much do you think shipping, packaging, assembly, inventory costs, marketing costs are?

Also take into account that we've heard nothing about the Wii U having a harddrive or DVD player/Bluray player which will keep costs down even more.

This fall, if Microsoft dropped the price of the 4GB XBox 360 to $150 (without Kinect)...then BOM for the 360 will probably be around $100 or less.
Click to expand...
Dunno, but the last BoM we got from one of the HD systems was probably the PS3 Slim BoM from 2009:

pEU2K.jpg


It's horribly outdated, but still interesting for a number of reasons. Two of the most expensive parts were the hard disk and the XDR, two issues Nintendo won't have. The chips were at 65nm, not 45nm (and whatever the GPU migh be - 45nm or less). Nintendo's IO controller is part of the GPU package, so that one would be cheaper as well (and reduce PCB complexity). BD-ROMs came down significantly over the last three years as well, as did wireless chipsets, but that part doesn't really matter. And I really doubt Nintendo would need a six layer PCB, their engineers are more capable than that.
 
O

Oddduck

Member
@wsippel

So if you take away harddrive and bluray drive (because the Wii U doesn't have them), the BOM for PS3 is around $232.37 in 2009.

Which is only $52.27 more than the $180 being rumored for Wii U's BOM.

The cell processor was still pretty state of the art chip in 2009. Who knows how state of the art Wii U's processors are. And the cost of PS3's parts must have went down significantly since it's 2012 now.
 
N

Nilaul

Member
I do imagine the bargain deal with IBM, something in the line of... make sure everyone knows what the technology behind the console is. More in the line of free advertisement for IBM.
So when ever the console/game starts up you would have a small animation showing powered by Groundbreaking "IBM watson technology (or whatever)"
Perhaps also on TV adverts you would see the Wii U logo and in the corner "Powered by IBM"
So even if IBM was to make a hefty loss on the GPU (or whatever) it wouldnt matter to them since they have a free 6 year advertisement campaign.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
IdeaMan said:
This !

We need cartridges back ! And i mean real cartridges, high-tech versions of course, but not the ultra tiny SD cards !

With the possibility to add embedded processors like the Super FX to boost the system capabilities for certain games.

Total silence ! Faster loading times !!!!

And, and...the contact with the object itself, the feel of the material, the art sticker on it, the plastic odor, mmhhhh

Seriously, the Neo Geo cartridges are just... And the Killer Instinct black one ! Or the N64 ones with their lovely top curve ! When we first opened the Turok box and took the cartridge out for our first review on the system, it smelt POWA !

okay, i must confess, i'm a cartridge-addict :(
Click to expand...

Hero of Legend said:
Edit: Call me a Cartridge on a Pear Tree as well, by now they should have the capacity to make ones with a lot of memory, just insert them like a VHS (or like a giant SD Card) and no worries of dust.
Click to expand...

Sweet!

I also like carts because for long-term physical preservation, they're not as delicate as disc media. You can use a cart for decades, and I sense that its chances of still working many years into the future are much, much better than a disc's chances in similar circumstances.
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Oddduck said:
@wsippel

So if you take away harddrive and bluray drive (because the Wii U doesn't have them), the BOM for PS3 is around $232.37 in 2009. And the cost of PS3's parts must have went down significantly since it's 2012 now.

Which is only $52.27 than the $180 being rumored for Wii U's BOM.

And cell processor was still pretty state of the art chip in 2009.
Click to expand...

The wiiu at least hardware wise includes a blu-ray drive, its just unable to read blu ray movies to save a few bucks on licencing costs
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Carts are harder and more expensive to manufacture

Speaking of

If the Wii U's disc format is proprietary (which I assume it is) again, third parties are gonna be annoyed.
 
S

Shurayuki

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Carts are harder and more expensive to manufacture

Speaking of

If the Wii U's disc format is proprietary (which I assume it is) again, third parties are gonna be annoyed.
Click to expand...

Why, production capacities?

I thought the annoyance came mainly from the size discrepancy, which shouldn't be an issue this time?
 
G

gogojira

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Carts are harder and more expensive to manufacture

Speaking of

If the Wii U's disc format is proprietary (which I assume it is) again, third parties are gonna be annoyed.
Click to expand...

According to Kotaku from back at least year's E3, it will be a proprietary 25GB disc. I know it's Kotaku and all, but I'm pretty sure that was reported numerous places.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Carts are harder and more expensive to manufacture

Speaking of

If the Wii U's disc format is proprietary (which I assume it is) again, third parties are gonna be annoyed.
Click to expand...
it REALLY bugs me that it's proprietary, like, more than anything else that we may or may not know. It's by far the most UGHHH worthy thing.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
ShockingAlberto said:
Carts are harder and more expensive to manufacture

Speaking of

If the Wii U's disc format is proprietary (which I assume it is) again, third parties are gonna be annoyed.
Click to expand...
I don't see how it would make a difference. The format is proprietary, but it's still technically Blu-ray - and PS3 games technically aren't really "Blu-rays" (or BD-ROMs), either. They're just as "proprietary".
 
S

Shurayuki

Member
Now obviously I have zero clue how disc production/features actually work, but how different from normal BR could it be. They should be way easier to produce than Gamecube discs and even the handheld formats then?

Asshat solution: Correct projections for your game.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
wsippel said:
I don't see how it would make a difference. The format is proprietary, but it's still technically Blu-ray - and PS3 games technically aren't really "Blu-rays" (or BD-ROMs), either. They're just as "proprietary".
Click to expand...

Because third parties can use, uh, third party blu-ray production and Sony's manufacturing queuing is just more efficient in general than Nintendo's, anyway.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Shurayuki said:
Now obviously I have zero clue how disc production/features actually work, but how different from normal BR could it be. They should be way easier to produce than Gamecube discs and even the handheld formats then?

Asshat solution: Correct projections for your game.
Click to expand...

Wii discs were DVDs, but still had to go through Nintendo for production because they were specialized.

It's not always easy to make correct projections. Sometimes a game just takes off for some reason and you need to get more copies out there immediately. Maybe there was a launch sale or great word of mouth or Obama drops the game name in the State of the Union, who knows. If you need a reprint, it might be behind Imagine: Babiez before you can get to it.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Shurayuki said:
Now obviously I have zero clue how disc production/features actually work, but how different from normal BR could it be. They should be way easier to produce than Gamecube discs and even the handheld formats then?

Asshat solution: Correct projections for your game.
Click to expand...
It's really completely irrelevant. Like I just wrote, PS3 games aren't "Blu-rays". Xbox360 games aren't "DVDs". They're physically the same disks, but still completely proprietary. Xbox360 games and Nintendo Optical Disks are exactly the same in that regard. And only Sony/ Microsoft press PS3/ 360 games - it's not like 3rd parties can chose to have them pressed somewhere else.


ShockingAlberto said:
Because third parties can use, uh, third party blu-ray production and Sony's manufacturing queuing is just more efficient in general than Nintendo's, anyway.
Click to expand...
That would be news to me. Every PS3 game I've ever seen, first and third party, was pressed by Sony. Every PS2 game was pressed by Sony even though it was physically just a "DVD". Every PS1 game was pressed by Sony even though it was physically just a "CD-ROM".
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
Oddduck said:
Good point.

The $180 figure does sound pretty believable since it doesn't include all the extra costs of packaging, shipping, labor, inventory costs, etc.
Click to expand...
Around $200 sounds beliveable indeed.


gogojira said:
According to Kotaku from back at least year's E3, it will be a proprietary 25GB disc. I know it's Kotaku and all, but I'm pretty sure that was reported numerous places.
Click to expand...
Reggie himself said it =)


wsippel said:
I don't see how it would make a difference. The format is proprietary, but it's still technically Blu-ray - and PS3 games technically aren't really "Blu-rays" (or BD-ROMs), either. They're just as "proprietary".
Click to expand...
PS3 games are officially Bluray. All PS3 games have the Bluray logo on them.

But yeah, WiiU games will most likely be exactly like it was with the Wii, they are DVDs, but they arent official DVD (no DVD logo on the games/discs).
 
T

Thraktor

Member
The Wii U's disc format will be about as proprietary as the Wii's: not. It'll be a pretty standard Blu-Ray with some sort of encryption method and perhaps a CAV drive. For the same reason I expect it to be a 50GB disc, as there's little to no saving with a single-layer drive (if they're even made).
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Because third parties can use, uh, third party blu-ray production and Sony's manufacturing queuing is just more efficient in general than Nintendo's, anyway.
Click to expand...

It always surprised me that nintendo never set up even small disc pressing plants in the us and europe, wouldsurely not cost much to staff and run and would've meant much quicker turnaround so less (or even no) shortages
 
A

axisofweevils

Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
test_account said:
Around $200 sounds beliveable indeed.



Reggie himself said it =)



PS3 games are officially Bluray. All PS3 games have the Bluray logo on them.

But yeah, WiiU games will most likely be exactly like it was with the Wii, they are DVDs, but they arent official DVD (no DVD logo on the games/discs).
Click to expand...

And that saves Nintendo giving Sony - their rival - a chunk of their money.

When people moan about Nintendo not playing Blu-Rays, they seem to forget that Sony has a sinister reason - Sony make movies too, so more machines to play their stuff = more profits for them.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
test_account said:
PS3 games are officially Bluray. All PS3 games have the Bluray logo on them.

But yeah, WiiU games will most likely be exactly like it was with the Wii, they are DVDs, but they arent official DVD (no DVD logo on the games/discs).
Click to expand...
Marketing. PS3 games are not standard BD-ROMs.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
axisofweevils said:
And that saves Nintendo giving Sony - their rival - a chunk of their money.
Click to expand...
I dont think that the company name matters that much to be honest. I think what is important for Nintendo is to get a good deal. If Sony provides that, i dont think that they will turn it down just because it is Sony. There are also more companies behind Bluray than just Sony. It is similar with DVDs as well, Sony is a part of that too.

I have no idea how this works though, if Nintendo somehow license the technology, but since they produce it on their own, it is cheaper (since it wont have the Bluray logo on them) i guess. It must be a reason why they do it like this at least.


wsippel said:
Marketing. PS3 games are not standard BD-ROMs.
Click to expand...
From what i know, the Bluray logo means that the disc follows the official Bluray specs. What would be a standard BD-ROM by the way?
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Thraktor said:
The Wii U's disc format will be about as proprietary as the Wii's: not. It'll be a pretty standard Blu-Ray with some sort of encryption method and perhaps a CAV drive. For the same reason I expect it to be a 50GB disc, as there's little to no saving with a single-layer drive (if they're even made).
Click to expand...
yeah but "it's nintendo". Always valid.
 
S

Shurayuki

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
It's not always easy to make correct projections. Sometimes a game just takes off for some reason and you need to get more copies out there immediately. Maybe there was a launch sale or great word of mouth or Obama drops the game name in the State of the Union, who knows. If you need a reprint, it might be behind Imagine: Babiez before you can get to it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know, that's why I put asshat in front there because obviously it's hard to tell. We saw a bit of it with Theatrythm in Japan.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
test_account said:
From what i know, the Bluray logo means that the disc follows the official Bluray specs. What would be a standard BD-ROM by the way?
Click to expand...
A physical Blu-ray disk using either BDFS or Joliet. PS3 games are not computer readable as far as I'm aware, as they use a custom file system and copy protection. And don't overestimate those logos. A ton of audio CDs carrying the official "Compact Disk Digital Audio" logo, including many from Sony Music, use copy protection schemes that don't follow the standard, which means they're technically not allowed to carry the logo. Nobody gives a fuck, though.
 
L

LeleSocho

Banned
wsippel said:
Dunno, but the last BoM we got from one of the HD systems was probably the PS3 Slim BoM from 2009:

pEU2K.jpg


It's horribly outdated, but still interesting for a number of reasons. Two of the most expensive parts were the hard disk and the XDR, two issues Nintendo won't have. The chips were at 65nm, not 45nm (and whatever the GPU migh be - 45nm or less). Nintendo's IO controller is part of the GPU package, so that one would be cheaper as well (and reduce PCB complexity). BD-ROMs came down significantly over the last three years as well, as did wireless chipsets, but that part doesn't really matter. And I really doubt Nintendo would need a six layer PCB, their engineers are more capable than that.
Click to expand...

What was the price of the ps3slim in 2009?
 
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