You should read through the last couple of pages of that retro stalker thread to see how retro really feels about making games on Nintendo hardware, or hardware in general.
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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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This thing actually has so many independent memory pools, each pool on its own bus, that the ~12GB/s to MEM2 are pretty much meaningless.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I've seen this argument raised before. No one cares about power consumption on consoles. We only want performance.
H_Prestige
Banned
lulz
These days are over.
We will be seeing a lot of smoke and mirrors to make things look good from here on out. And there's nothing wrong with that on the console front. It's why they can be smaller, produce less heat, etc, than our equivalent PCs.
See: X
cyberheater said:
Don't pretend to speak for the masses. You & I don't care, certainly. Lots and lots of people do.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
It does have twice the amount of RAM available to games, AND twice the edram. Also the CPU is out of order, and with more L2 cache. On the CPU side there's definitely some pro and cons(which embarrassing in itself when your comparing it to a CPU 7 years older), but at the end of the day its much newer tech than Xenon.
Not that I care about it myself, but I'm sure some do.
At peace with the universe.
Schnozberry
Member
I don't think this is true for everyone at all. I bet people in countries where electricity is much more expensive care quite a bit.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
That kinda proves my case
You could with less customized components, probably achieve greater power than what is currently found in the Wii U. Especially if you were to increase the size of it four-fold (so to PS3/Xbox360 size) and not restrict yourself to just 75W.
Going small and low-powered (energy wise) with the Wii U was a mistake imho, obviously a result of designing the console with Japan primarily in mind (because it's a pretty insignificant factor in EU/NA so long as it's not the size of a desktop).
I love the Wii U, but if the box isn't important like Iwata and Reggie said, why didn't they increase the size and power requirements of it so that they could squeeze in more stuff into it at the same price?
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
When you're buying a games console. The last thing you're going to look at is it's power consumption.
Can see why nintendo said it was a very memory intensive design. Nintendo always seem to design machines around the memory and not just as an after thought.
Zoramon089
Banned
Power consumption isn't a factor of performance anymore? No wonder components always list power consumption ratings...
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Retro... stalker thread?
I think his point was more that the performance demonstrated under real world conditions does not mesh with the disparaging opinion of people who constantly chant "weak and shitty, weak and shitty" in a drum circle of scorn.
It's not an argument and I'm not championing power consumption - I was pointing out the futility in trying to judge WiiUs "power" at this point. Let 'em work out what we're looking at first!
wsippels post a bit further up re memory pools is a prime example
Patience...
edit - above: yup
We've basically learned that the GPU is a little low on the horsepower department. But does this translate directly to in-game performance? Like a race-car is all in the customizations. What kind of tires will the car have? Exhaust? What is the drag co-efficient of the body? Who is the driver? Rookie or a seasoned Professional (think dev teams)? This will determine if we have a 200 hp corolla or a 200 hp Lotus Elise. Big difference in performance with the same horse power.
Chronos24
Member
I'm fairly new at this and I want to understand the chip shot a little better. How would I go about "counting" certain parts like the spus and the Edram? I get the explanations but I am just trying to better understand what I'm looking at. Been lurking and posting here and there and just wanna say thanks to you guys for orchestrating this. I've always been curious and from reading the posts I've been trying to learn what I can. Thanks again guys.
Schnozberry
Member
Yeah....link please?
Pagusas
Elden Member
Why do people keep saying this? I've yet to see a single video of X that couldnt have been done on the PS3 or 360. That shot of the mech transforming and flying off just makes me scratch my head and wonder where you guys have been the last 3 to 4 years, we already have games on the market that look great in similar fashion.
does it look great? YES! Does it look like any form of a generational, or even half generational leap? No.
JaseMath
Member
Do tell.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Why? Being in a closed environment with every user having the exact same hardware, and with way less overhead, and being able to code to to the metal still accomplishes the same things as it did before.
I doubt you'll see a gtx690 on PC or whatever being able to accomplish the things Orbis' will be able to at the end of its life cycle. Even though it has more than twice the flops.
That kinda proves my case
You could with less customized components, probably achieve greater power than what is currently found in the Wii U. Especially if you were to increase the size of it four-fold (so to PS3/Xbox360 size) and not restrict yourself to just 75W.
Going small and low-powered (energy wise) with the Wii U was a mistake imho, obviously a result of designing the console with Japan primarily in mind (because it's a pretty insignificant factor in EU/NA so long as it's not the size of a desktop).
I love the Wii U, but if the box isn't important like Iwata and Reggie said, why didn't they increase the size and power requirements of it so that they could squeeze in more stuff into it at the same price?
More power on paper? Yes. More power in real world terms? No. I think you missed my point. Games that release on the Wii U in the future(2-3 yrs from now) would never be able to run at a framerate above 10fps on the hardware you listed. Or even a more powerful GPU wont be able to(600-800gflop GPU).
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
I really wouldn't agree that external memory bandwidth is meaningless. It's still the only way to get the vast majority of your data out of and into the chip per-frame. Lots of small memory pools are an asset, but its ultra high bandwidth ring bus and per-SPE local store didn't make Cell's external memory bandwidth irrelevant.
"More recently customized" would be correct, but the basic architecture of the CPU is from the last century.
The stuff we got from Chipworks is extremely low level. Apparently, the parts at the bottom left are both interfaces, though we have no idea what they interface with. The thing on the left has a tank oscillator (no idea what that is, but it's apparently good stuff), and the one next to it is a very high speed interface, potentially SerDes. Don't feel bad if you have no idea what that means, as we have pretty much no idea either.
I agree (I want a muscle car, not a Prius), but I hope that high power consumption doesn't come at the expense of reliability this time. Make the cases the size of PC if needs be, there'll be slim models down the line anyway.
Nice, that's what experts are for.The stuff we got from Chipworks is extremely low level. Apparently, the parts at the bottom left are both interfaces, though we have no idea what they interface with. The thing on the left has a tank oscillator (no idea what that is, but it's apparently good stuff), and the one next to it is a very high speed interface, potentially SerDes. Don't feel bad if you have no idea what that means, as we have pretty much no idea either.
mugurumakensei
Member
How many pools and how big is each pool?
The problem is, die shrinks aren't really going to be there in force for the 8th generation. If at all.
They were really only in play a couple times this generation. You've got to do it how you want it from the start.
The funny thing is, they have been able to produce industry leading benchmarks actually, if you count the overall quality, awesomeness and fun of their games.
And in an industry that lives off selling "fun" and "games" that's pretty much as good as it can get.
You wish they were frustrated, but I think they aren't. If anthing, their most likely very proud and satisfied with themselves and their accomplishments.
Captain Smoker
Member
Lot's of mysteries to solve.The stuff we got from Chipworks is extremely low level. Apparently, the parts at the bottom left are both interfaces, though we have no idea what they interface with. The thing on the left has a tank oscillator (no idea what that is, but it's apparently good stuff), and the one next to it is a very high speed interface, potentially SerDes. Don't feel bad if you have no idea what that means, as we have pretty much no idea either.
Google doesn't know either @ tank oscillator.
SerDes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerDes ) (for those who're interested / if it's even this)
Schnozberry
Member
The stuff we got from Chipworks is extremely low level. Apparently, the parts at the bottom left are both interfaces, though we have no idea what they interface with. The thing on the left has a tank oscillator (no idea what that is, but it's apparently good stuff), and the one next to it is a very high speed interface, potentially SerDes. Don't feel bad if you have no idea what that means, as we have pretty much no idea either.
According to the always reliable Wikipedia, a Tank Oscillator in electronics is used to tune radios. I'd guess Gamepad Streaming? The SerDes converts serialized data to parralel and vice versa. What it's doing on the GPU is above my intelligence level on the subject.
It's certainly not meaningless, but it's probably/ hopefully "fast enough" considering what it's meant to do. I think Nintendo learned its lesson in that regard after the N64.
It's still a pretty good and efficient design.
Hopefully I made my point clearer further up. I'm not implying power consumption trumps power output, just making a point that we needn't start the ridiculing in this thread as well.
For starters we've still got a lot to decipher from the pics.
My 2 pence anyhoo
mugurumakensei
Member
Die shrinks are going to be hard. http://www.extremetech.com/computin...y-with-tsmc-claims-22nm-essentially-worthless
Slightly old but very much relevant.
So, slimming down wont be an option for at least 4 to 5 years at least.
Sure, probably more efficient than Xenon ever was. But not much newer, or even newer at all.
Components need power consumption ratings because people need those to know how much power their power supply (and also cooling systems) need to deal with.
Actually, it's interesting, many people will wait for a die shrink before buying things like CPU's and GPU's because the lowered power (and heat) requirements. Especially if you're putting it in something like a SFFPC (or HTPC) which has a built in power supply and limited watts and cooling to go around.
In terms of laptops, lower power ratings will also mean better battery life.
I honestly doubt people look at power ratings on GPU's and pick the one that has the highest, rather they'd look at things that matter more like actual performance specifications.
Honey Bunny
Member
So how's Crysis shaping up on Wii U?
I kid I kid
Kudos to Chipworks, this stuff is super interesting.
This and I don't see you anyone knocking MS from borrowing from this setup instead of going with the garbage that was the first Xbox.
Despite the spoiler crytek already answered that and one of their partners has C3 engine title on the way.
That kinda proves my case
You could with less customized components, probably achieve greater power than what is currently found in the Wii U. Especially if you were to increase the size of it four-fold (so to PS3/Xbox360 size) and not restrict yourself to just 75W.
Going small and low-powered (energy wise) with the Wii U was a mistake imho, obviously a result of designing the console with Japan primarily in mind (because it's a pretty insignificant factor in EU/NA so long as it's not the size of a desktop).
I love the Wii U, but if the box isn't important like Iwata and Reggie said, why didn't they increase the size and power requirements of it so that they could squeeze in more stuff into it at the same price?
75 Watts ? The Wii U is only using 33 Watts. If it used 75 it would be very powerful compared to current gen.
I do agree they should have inchreased it, but thats not what this thread is about. Its about determining the actual performance, not what it should have been or could have been.
The stuff we got from Chipworks is extremely low level. Apparently, the parts at the bottom left are both interfaces, though we have no idea what they interface with. The thing on the left has a tank oscillator (no idea what that is, but it's apparently good stuff), and the one next to it is a very high speed interface, potentially SerDes. Don't feel bad if you have no idea what that means, as we have pretty much no idea either.
The tanks oscilator is likely something made by Qualcom. A quick bit of googling reveals patents for them from Qualcom. Seems to be something about keeping clocks stable but I haven't a clue about that.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Hopefully a little closure here for people expecting some magic to rush forth from the GPU like a genie stowed up in a lamp.
Also takes the edge off a lot of port begging with regards to pretty much most of "next-gen" and that its a real hassle even for multiplatform ports this gen. Nintendo sure made a lot of weird decisions with this box.
Also takes the edge off a lot of port begging with regards to pretty much most of "next-gen" and that its a real hassle even for multiplatform ports this gen. Nintendo sure made a lot of weird decisions with this box.
Glorified G
Member
That was the first thing I looked at when buying a 360. (Trying to snag a Jasper)
Could be the SerDes used to ensure that the communication with the DDR3 RAM uses fully the 12GB/s in one direction ?
Zoramon089
Banned
Well, looking at the hardware doesn't really tell us anything about WHAT fixed functions are available so that's still a mystery that won't really be solved in this thread...it's not "magic" per say but it irks me when people simply count up shader units to compute flops and don't consider that that isn't accurate because other components are taking over functions that would have used those shader units
ambientmystic
Member
The 5450 is not even halfway decent even compared to the Wii U's GPU which most definitely has more than the 80 shader units in the 5450.
ATI Radeon 5450 Specs
This seems like a more reasonable guess. I've mentioned before in the Wii U tech spec thread that I wouldn't be disappointed if 320 was the case. 320 SUs would give a 50% boost over the 360's GPU.
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