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[Bleepey]

I can understand why the US needs humour, hope, heroics right now, but it's not something that appeals a lot to me. I like my music and films dark. Superman, under Snyder's guidance, felt like he had dimensions to him as a character, and that's something I can't say about Singer's Reeve knockoff. I wouldn't mind some 'fun' and 'light' films like Aquaman going forward, but I want super high stakes at the very end, with a sense of loss permeating throughout. I'm from the Alan Moore school of comic books, unfortunately.

Lol. You must think Snyder is a god lol. I don't even think Snyderman is dark or emo, he's pensive. He's constantly thinking about his role in the world.

 

[Cipher Peon]

There is nothing grimdark about that scene. The No Man's Land scene is antithetical to the entire rest of the DCEU.

...How was this sequence in any way "grimdark"? I mean you could maybe argue the scene leading up to it, with the fleeing civilians and wounded/dead soldiers, but there's clearly a point to it. It raises up the following sequence of Diana's defiance of the suffering, and makes her push back against it all the more glorious and heroic.

It is far and away the most heroic and uplifting thing in any of the DC movies thus far. Snyder's direction in his last two movies would've been to have her save people, and then immediately try and make you feel as dour and crushed about it as possible.

Shaany is right, I meant the scene leading up to it. It was exceptional and that set up the stage for the No Man's Land scene being the best scene in the movie.

It's not my favorite scene in the series, but it is the most genuinely heroic thing I've seen in a movie ever, so that's cool.

 

[Lights and Waves]

The parts where Wonder Woman was being super grimdark was when the film shined the best. The No Man's Land scene was excellent.

...are you fucking kidding? No Man's Land's is the exact opposite of grimdark. It's literally proof that the grimdark b.s. needs to stop. That scene was 100% pure heroism, hope and courage.

That scene was the nail in the coffin that proved the Snyderverse approach to be shut down immediately.

 

[Penguin]

There is nothing grimdark about that scene. The No Man's Land scene is antithetical to the entire rest of the DCEU.

...How was this sequence in any way "grimdark"? I mean you could maybe argue the scene leading up to it, with the fleeing civilians and wounded/dead soldiers, but there's clearly a point to it. It raises up the following sequence of Diana's defiance of the suffering, and makes her push back against it all the more glorious and heroic.

It is far and away the most heroic and uplifting thing in any of the DC movies thus far. Snyder's direction in his last two movies would've been to have her save people, and then immediately try and make you feel as dour and crushed about it as possible.

Ha I like these back-to-back

Because it isn't antithetical to the rest of the DCEU, it's showing that their ideas with proper execution work.

I mean No Man's Land itself isn't too grim, but the things leading up to it and the fallout after it surely are.

But seeing the hero overcome that is what makes it stand out and what makes the grimness of the fallout even worse

 

[Inferno313]

...are you fucking kidding? No Man's Land's is the exact opposite of grimdark. It's literally proof that the grimdark b.s. needs to stop. That scene was 100% pure heroism, hope and courage.

That scene was the nail in the coffin that proved the Snyderverse approach to be shut down immediately.

Cipher's favorite Overwatch character is Reaper. That should tell you all you need to know.

Spoiler

Just teasin'

 

[Afrodium]

"Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes"

 

[MisterHero]

Ha I like these back-to-back

Because it isn't antithetical to the rest of the DCEU, it's showing that their ideas with proper execution work.

I mean No Man's Land itself isn't too grim, but the things leading up to it and the fallout after it surely are.

But seeing the hero overcome that is what makes it stand out and what makes the grimness of the fallout even worse

Exactly. I said MoS and BvS made common storytelling mistakes. Not responding to the fallout of the violence properly. Forcing you to watch the next movie to see how the characters develop. But their concepts are valid.

Diana's efforts gets punished by having the whole town gassed, and ends up with her blaming Trevor as well as the Germans. It's pretty grim on top of what came before. But Wonder Woman finds her mission in the end, and allows the film to be complete to a satisfying end. Until the sequel of course.

Now if you guys want to complain about them making Suicide Squad 2 or Gotham City Sirens, I'd be right there with you. I'm not sure what the point of those movies are. Except maybe boobs and butts and explosions.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Amazing how something so obvious and simple could be an epiphany.

I'll never understand how a something like Batman vs. Superman gets made. There were toys for that movie. Shit was fucking bleak.

 

[ZealousD]

Making superhero movies is so hard. Heroics? Who could have ever expected people wanted that out of superheroes? Fans are too fickle.

Some of the most critically acclaimed superhero comics like Watchmen and The Killing Joke have barely any heroics at all.

 

[QuantumZebra]

well fuck me that's just about the antithesis of man of steel and bvs right there

To be honest Superman is a wildly boring character unless he is a villain. As a hero he is just a vanilla Gary Stu with about as much depth as a puddle.

Wonder Woman being the CPT. America of the DCCU and Batman being the Iron Man works way better.

 

[Monocle]

DC needs to look towards Richard Donner and less Marvel.

Fine with me. Whatever works!

 

[Yuki the heart butt Corgi]

Notice Superman isn't in that list?

Superman - hits you with feels.
Wonder Women - hits you with feels+optimism
Batman vs Superman - hits you with Overwhelming sense of dread and despair that sucks the ever living life out of you because the emo-force is strong with Ben Insurance.
Suicide Squad - it balances out because Heathen's music video.

 

[a916]

It's the same thing he said when they announced him as the head of DC Films. I believe they also said Superman is the most paramount to getting the film universe on the right track.

 

[Wingfan19]

 

[Inferno313]

To be honest Superman is a wildly boring character unless he is a villain. As a hero he is just a vanilla Gary Stu with about as much depth as a puddle.

Wonder Woman being the CPT. America of the DCCU and Batman being the Iron Man works way better.

Nah. There are some downright classic Superman stories. Superman's depth often comes in his struggle to reconcile that even with his immense power, he doesn't have the capability to save everyone. He's also got a great cast of supporting characters and a really underrated rogues gallery.

 

[Inferno313]

Some of the most critically acclaimed superhero comics like Watchmen and The Killing Joke have barely any heroics at all.

That's because those work as exceptions to the norm, as subversions. If a film with the tone of BvS (and better execution) came out after the DCEU had been well-established with a successful run of generally heroic stories, it'd probably be received a lot more positively as an interesting subversion of the norm. The problem is, that up until Wonder Woman, bleak was the norm for the DCEU. Seeing these characters at their worst doesn't have any impact until you've seen them at their best.

 

[ReiGun]

Nah. There are some downright classic Superman stories. Superman's depth often comes in his struggle to reconcile that even with his immense power, he doesn't have the capability to save everyone. He's also got a great cast of supporting characters and a really underrated rogues gallery.

Not to mention stories with him as the villain tend to just be schlock where the writer gets to work out their issues with authority figures left over from their teen years.

Spoiler

I kid, but really, only "Red Son" has done it right.

 

[Batjag]

Exactly. I said MoS and BvS made common storytelling mistakes. Not responding to the fallout of the violence properly. Forcing you to watch the next movie to see how the characters develop. But their concepts are valid.

Diana's efforts gets punished by having the whole town gassed, and ends up with her blaming Trevor as well as the Germans. It's pretty grim on top of what came before. But Wonder Woman finds her mission in the end, and allows the film to be complete to a satisfying end.

Yes, this movie still deals with a lot of heavy topics, but it balances them better. I think the thing that separates the WW storytelling from BvS storytelling is exemplified in No Man's Land.

Spoiler

The film allows the audience to revel in a purely heroic display when Wonder Woman liberates the village. The good outcome is then shown and lingered on with the time spent in the town celebrating with the villagers. Then the next day the town is gassed, but it doesn't eliminate the victory. At least the villagers had one day of freedom. The bad guys were going to gas them the next day anyway.

The BvS version of that scene would've had Wonder Woman charge through No Man's Land, free the village, and then watch helplessly as the gas hits at precisely that moment - leading to a lingering shot of Wonder Woman weeping while surrounded by dead villagers.

The problem with the grimdark style (when not used properly) is that it tends to immediately undercut heroic moments, while lingering on moments of sorrow and regret.

 

[Screaming Meat]

He was seminal in the dark ages of superheroes whether he likes it or not. Bringing heroes into a more grittier real world rather than pulling us, the readers, into their magical world

Yeah, and he deeply regrets the misreading of his work. He spent most of the rest of his career trying to bring back the 'love', so to speak.

To be honest Superman is a wildly boring character unless he is a villain. As a hero he is just a vanilla Gary Stu with about as much depth as a puddle.

Depends who writes him.

 

[anaron]

People shouldn't be negating Allan's influence. Dude is a comics veteran, wrote a Wonder Woman mini and for shitload of classic TV shows, created Young Avengers.