It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the film. So yeah it is disingenuous.
Alnost every other capeshit flick is low stakes carny material. There's room for a darker more cynical take as you said.
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Wonder Woman and the 5 Words That Saved DC Movies From Darkness
- Thread starter Penguin
- Start date
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
His post-dark stuff can be really wonderful. If you want some great almost-Superman comics, read his run on Supreme. Seriously entertaining, lighthearted and smart comics.
Tom Strong is pretty great, too.
FTFY
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
So basically make them Silver Age heroes. I think most would agree that the majority of DC characters, not Batman, work best when they take from their Silver-Age goofiness.
I only saw Batman V Superman in passing whilst at work and jesus the movie is so miserable, I don't know why anyone would want to see it. Black, grey and muddy colours all over and characters talking in angry growly tones all the time was all I ever saw.
I guess it's appealing if you want to see the main selling point of DCs two biggest stars kicking the crap out of each other, but the run up to it and everything else about it looks so joyless and desperate to be taken seriously it comes off as either boring or laughable.
Wonder Woman still has shades of that stuff naturally, but at the least it knows to have a heart and have characters show emotion beyond anger. Makes the times when it does go dark more impactful since it's not constantly down in the dumps.
I guess it's appealing if you want to see the main selling point of DCs two biggest stars kicking the crap out of each other, but the run up to it and everything else about it looks so joyless and desperate to be taken seriously it comes off as either boring or laughable.
Wonder Woman still has shades of that stuff naturally, but at the least it knows to have a heart and have characters show emotion beyond anger. Makes the times when it does go dark more impactful since it's not constantly down in the dumps.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
According to Kevin Smith, the Flash writers room has "Heart, Humor, Spectacle" on their wall.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
This bodes well for their movies going forward, too. I'm glad that Johns is taking a greater role in things; the dude definitely knows his DC heroes forwards and backwards, and he understands the essence of what makes them work.
And Jenkins and Heinberg definitely need to get more work from DC, too. They delivered probably the most phenomenal superhero film ever.
And Jenkins and Heinberg definitely need to get more work from DC, too. They delivered probably the most phenomenal superhero film ever.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Ah yes, the five Hs.
Wait a minute
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Oh god. I don't need to be reminded of this "animation".
Martha Martha... Martha... Martha!
To be fair no one at DC has had the biggest impact on their entire line of heroes then those two. There are other writers deserving of the same success but they just don't get it.
Martha Martha... Martha... Martha!
you're just doubling down on this tired joke eh? Its ok to admit you thought you were going to get a better reaction.
Maybe if I told your my mother's name was Martha you would change your mind.
Escape Goat
Member
Batman and Robin 2: Bat Boogaloo - In Theaters May 5th 2019
BKatastrophe
Member
I have no qualms with heroes who begin (at the start of this film/universe) with their moral compass spinning out of control, and then managing to find that heroic north by the end. It was an appealing aspect of MoS, but whether it was the structure of the film, the directing, acting, or whatever, the heroic turn at the end didn't feel satisfying. Like it wasn't earned, I guess would be the word. I have yet to see BvS, so I can't comment. SS is another interesting character piece in which the same situation happens, but with villains: they tried to be heroes, but they receive no redemption. They'll always be villains. El Diablo does, but
. Yet again, an interesting film bogged down by mechanical failure. I felt it was boring, ultimately, with decent action and character work, but bad pacing.
It seems to be an interesting thing: heroes will always be heroes, and villains will always be villains, but there is potential for change. They can be conflicted, they WILL be conflicted, but they'll come out on the other side. WW was great for showing a superhero who wants to be a fucking hero. She believes in love and doesn't lose that. I love that.
I think JL is going to be a turning point: it's bringing in the New Age of Heroes. You hear it in the trailer. I think a universe that starts dark and gets brighter as we come into a new age is great. I just feel like the films haven't been as mechanically sound (again I can't comment on BvS).
he dies
It seems to be an interesting thing: heroes will always be heroes, and villains will always be villains, but there is potential for change. They can be conflicted, they WILL be conflicted, but they'll come out on the other side. WW was great for showing a superhero who wants to be a fucking hero. She believes in love and doesn't lose that. I love that.
I think JL is going to be a turning point: it's bringing in the New Age of Heroes. You hear it in the trailer. I think a universe that starts dark and gets brighter as we come into a new age is great. I just feel like the films haven't been as mechanically sound (again I can't comment on BvS).
Aurean_Mentat
Member
We'll see. Admittedly, given how good Geoff Johns is at drilling down to the core of a character and rebuilding a universe (he made Green Lantern an entire mythology, Aquaman a series of stories that didn't blow, and did a pretty big Teen Titans run that seems to be well liked. Oh, he also had the Rebirth plan in his backpocket, and did it in a way where the characters made sense.) I'm hopeful, but my biggest hope for DC is that they stop trying to 'catch up' with Marvel.
Instead, just focus on making good movies with talented people. Don't try to build a universe. First, make movies that don't suck that get audiences to care about the characters.
Instead, just focus on making good movies with talented people. Don't try to build a universe. First, make movies that don't suck that get audiences to care about the characters.
Fancyarcher
Member
Batman and Robin 2: The Legend of Mr. Freeze's Gold, coming soon.
Geoff is the goat man one of the best in the business imo
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Nice words, and I really liked WW, but Justice League still looks like shit. Wooo, another superhero ensemble film against an army of robot drones. This time with less saturated colors! Bonus points for comedic quips that fall flat and take any tension from the movie!
Cipher Peon
Banned
Damn, I like Johns, but those words are very far away from what I want the DC to be :/
I liked WW just fine, but I'd rather it be a one off thing tonally speaking. I love the grimdark nature of what DC is normally going for.
I liked WW just fine, but I'd rather it be a one off thing tonally speaking. I love the grimdark nature of what DC is normally going for.
Just_myles
Member
Agreed. I mentioned this in another thread( He is no Feige.). That sure, he deserves some credit but, it actually goes to the creators.
For the record, I hated rebirth. With a passion.
You and no one else.
Yeah, that box office is pure fiction eh?
Turin Turambar
Member
Not every movie has to be the same.
The problem of DC movies was the writing quality, to do a good drama you need to have the proper writing skills.
The problem of DC movies was the writing quality, to do a good drama you need to have the proper writing skills.
That week-by-week drop-off for the past 3 movies sure ain't fake. Neither are the countless articles declaring how Wonder Woman is saving the DCEU from itself.
But sure, defend those first 3 DCEU movies to me. Please.
Turning two of the most iconic superheroes in the world into wholly unlikable pricks probably isn't doing the genre any favors either.
MisterHero
Super Member
What's more grimdark than putting Wonder Woman in the middle of an actual war, where regular soldiers are maimed and traumatized?
WW actually fits in the mold of MoS/BvS. The advantages WW has over MoS/BvS is that Wondy's character arc takes just one movie to tell. She finds herself in a messed up world, and judges humans positively at the very end. Supes and Batman change their outlooks at the end of BvS, but you gotta see how it plays out in Justice League.
Supes and Bats were meant to develop over the course of several movies. But since Johns got promoted, they've been pushing for the positivity faster.
MoS and BvS made lots of common storytelling mistakes. Still, I would love for them to continue the serious tone.
how edgy!Shaanyboi said:
Have to say finding BvS and SS to be truly poor films with maddeningly weak themes and narrative cohesion it was quite the surprise to find WW well made, structured, tonally consistent and fun.
Crow for me there as I figured they'd push out another mess.
Good to hear they're learning the lesson here.
Amazing they needed to in the first place of course: this should have been self evident.
Crow for me there as I figured they'd push out another mess.
Good to hear they're learning the lesson here.
Amazing they needed to in the first place of course: this should have been self evident.
But you kinda do root for him because you feel so bad for him to be stuck in this piece of shit.
Dude was literally emotionally abused by his Dad.
Want to tackle the social and moral implications of Superman in a morally complex modern world? Great! But when your Superman is a grossly underwritten character in his own fucking movie? You done fucked up. Even aside from the structural mess that is MoS, you have a lead who barely drives his own story, and self-important dialogue that is far too fucking aware of the grander pop-culture context of Superman. You have a romance that comes from nowhere, and instead comes off as wildly inappropriate considering they start making out atop the pulverized ashes of thousands of Metropolis citizens. And tons of destruction porn without even acknowledgement of how horrible it is until they retconned in Bruce Wayne to make it a clever perspective shift.
They aren't making a season of a TV show where people can come out the other end of this emotional arc after just afew weeks. These are movies where we had 3 years time in-between Superman appearances, and both times have been fucking miserable. And they expect people to keep coming back to the theater for more of it?
Even Batman, outside the excellently choreographed warehouse fight, is a mess. Not because of Affleck, or even the way he's written. But when he's supposed to be this morally broken murderer, his darkness doesn't contrast that heavily against a Superman who is already dour and already just wastes a dude in his first scene in BvS.
And nah, I don't claim that that post was edgy. I would say it's plainly obvious considering the spiteful attitude everyone has towards WB's movies up til this point.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
what in the unholy fuck is this
Martha Martha... Martha... Martha!
Cipher Peon
Banned
The parts where Wonder Woman was being super grimdark was when the film shined the best. The No Man's Land scene was excellent.
The positivity angle isn't as endearing to me as it is to others, though. But I do like that they distinguished WW from Bats and Supes, though.
Also whoa whoa whoa, nothing wrong with being edgy, friend. In fact, I welcome it ^^
I'd like to think I'm consistent when watching tv and movies hehehehe
There is nothing grimdark about that scene. The No Man's Land scene is antithetical to the entire rest of the DCEU.
...How was this sequence in any way "grimdark"? I mean you could maybe argue the scene leading up to it, with the fleeing civilians and wounded/dead soldiers, but there's clearly a point to it. It raises up the following sequence of Diana's defiance of the suffering, and makes her push back against it all the more glorious and heroic.
It is far and away the most heroic and uplifting thing in any of the DC movies thus far. Snyder's direction in his last two movies would've been to have her save people, and then immediately try and make you feel as dour and crushed about it as possible.
Moore's work on Supreme revels in the sillier and more whimsical aspects of the entire Superman mythos and still manages to build a compelling story with them that takes itself seriously, with the sense of fun and wonder of it all pervasive across the whole thing.
There's room for more gritty takes on superhero concepts, especially if it means dealing with little-touched aspects of characters, but some people just latched on to the surface appeal of those takes too hard after seeing them succeed.
I'm not sure about the man's entire body of work but his Billy Batson being the bitterest, nastiest take on him that I've ever seen, missing the whole point of why the character ever got the powers in the first place, doesn't make me too optimistic about what Johns says now compared to what he's actually done... might be a matter of favored characters (so probably Black Adam, when it comes to that particular mythos...), or forcing a character development arc by twisting the starting point, what the starting point is, well, the point...
Current Berserk anime, in 3D - I haven't watched it, but it's apparently been a bit of a mess.
Fast Forward
Member
I don't care the reason. I'm just glad DC finally made a good movie within in the DCEU.
Personally, I'm someone who very much wants both companies to be successful. I'm a fan of them both. I love me Batman as much as I love me some Spider-Man. Success of one meaning the failure of the other has always been a false narrative IMHO. MCU was not beating the DCEU all this time. DCEU was beating themselves. Hopefully Wonder Woman is the start of a new turn around. As Wonder Woman showed, you can offer something that is both successful, and different from the MCU at the same time.
Personally, I'm someone who very much wants both companies to be successful. I'm a fan of them both. I love me Batman as much as I love me some Spider-Man. Success of one meaning the failure of the other has always been a false narrative IMHO. MCU was not beating the DCEU all this time. DCEU was beating themselves. Hopefully Wonder Woman is the start of a new turn around. As Wonder Woman showed, you can offer something that is both successful, and different from the MCU at the same time.
The accumulated filth of all the DCEU's sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the fanboys and executives will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "Geoff Johns."
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
DC needs to look towards Richard Donner and less Marvel.