This is at the essence of it. Not only those two games but the fantastic PC landscape in general.
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World of Warcraft at 5.6 million subs (was 7.1M, 10M), Diablo 3 has sold 30+M copies
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
This is at the essence of it. Not only those two games but the fantastic PC landscape in general.
Dargor
Member
I think that if they get rid of garrisons, they would probably get at least 1 million subs back.
IMHO:
That thing is atrociously boring. Its time consuming and makes people stop exploring the world. They just stay at their garrisons, so you never see other players unless you're somewhere with an important quest or something similar.
Short version, its a chore. Thats a problem.
And thats for people that play with just one character, now imagine if you have to deal with multiple garrisons. Sheesh...
If they really don't wanna let that mechanic go, they should make them work like mounts and title, where one garrison is shared with all characters. Changing buildings shouldn't cost time nor gold, only upgrading them should.
IMHO:
That thing is atrociously boring. Its time consuming and makes people stop exploring the world. They just stay at their garrisons, so you never see other players unless you're somewhere with an important quest or something similar.
Short version, its a chore. Thats a problem.
And thats for people that play with just one character, now imagine if you have to deal with multiple garrisons. Sheesh...
If they really don't wanna let that mechanic go, they should make them work like mounts and title, where one garrison is shared with all characters. Changing buildings shouldn't cost time nor gold, only upgrading them should.
Rösti;174156420 said:
Mike Morhaime said in the conference call that the next expansion will be tied to player feedback on Warlords of Draenor, and that we should be excited, in this aspect, for what they will show at gamescom.
I want to see it to believe it..also it would be wise that it is releasing after blizzcon not next year people all ready getting tired of sitting on the same content for a longtime.
Antilurker77
Member
Same goes for Mists of Pandaria.
I seriously hope this is a wake-up call for Blizzard. They can't keep half-assing content like they have been for WoD.
The community is garbage outside of friend/guild circles. Everyone you meet is basically a bot who wants the job done as efficiently as possible preferably without uttering a single word.
The changes to pre max level content rendered the 1-99 period meaningless, although this was a problem even during wotlk:
-Questing has been streamlined severely by structuring it so neatly and predictably (go to new camp -> gather all quests available -> complete them in nearby areas -> turn them all in at the same location, rinse repeat)
- I loved running instances like Wailing Caverns and whatnot for blues because they really felt like significant upgrades, now you can simply plow through the content without caring about gear. Not to mention how the charm of running them is gone because everyone has the "let's finish the job and be done with it" mentality, plus they are piss easy which makes it even more boring. Do you even need a healer for instancs, like properly specced ones with mana breaks in between each pack of mobs and such? CC'ing and utilizing all spells at your disposal? Those days are long gone sadly.
- Because they expanded the number of areas you can quest in at any given level, as well as how ridiculously fast you can level up and move on to another area, you never see other people doing the same quests as you are in the world outside of the starting area (lvl 1-6). Am I playing Skyrim or an MMO ? But hey at least I can get all the ore veins and herbs for myself right!! Part of the fun was competing with others for them but whatever. It felt like a living, breathing world way back.
PvE raiding seems to still be intact, I haven't played a proper raid since Cata (LFG raids in Mists don't count because of how easy bosses are). That I can still see be an interesting hook of the game, although I don't have the time/energy/motivation to constantly grind crap (materials, rep, dailies and now there's the garrison aspect) just to be best prepared for raids. Nor do I feel like wiping 5 hours a day anymore, especially since I would be doing it at a much lower level instead of competing for server firsts. I'm done with WoW!
The changes to pre max level content rendered the 1-99 period meaningless, although this was a problem even during wotlk:
-Questing has been streamlined severely by structuring it so neatly and predictably (go to new camp -> gather all quests available -> complete them in nearby areas -> turn them all in at the same location, rinse repeat)
- I loved running instances like Wailing Caverns and whatnot for blues because they really felt like significant upgrades, now you can simply plow through the content without caring about gear. Not to mention how the charm of running them is gone because everyone has the "let's finish the job and be done with it" mentality, plus they are piss easy which makes it even more boring. Do you even need a healer for instancs, like properly specced ones with mana breaks in between each pack of mobs and such? CC'ing and utilizing all spells at your disposal? Those days are long gone sadly.
- Because they expanded the number of areas you can quest in at any given level, as well as how ridiculously fast you can level up and move on to another area, you never see other people doing the same quests as you are in the world outside of the starting area (lvl 1-6). Am I playing Skyrim or an MMO ? But hey at least I can get all the ore veins and herbs for myself right!! Part of the fun was competing with others for them but whatever. It felt like a living, breathing world way back.
PvE raiding seems to still be intact, I haven't played a proper raid since Cata (LFG raids in Mists don't count because of how easy bosses are). That I can still see be an interesting hook of the game, although I don't have the time/energy/motivation to constantly grind crap (materials, rep, dailies and now there's the garrison aspect) just to be best prepared for raids. Nor do I feel like wiping 5 hours a day anymore, especially since I would be doing it at a much lower level instead of competing for server firsts. I'm done with WoW!
don't tell me you are one of those that think D2 is better than D3 (specially after RoS) because it has more 'soul' and 'charm'. D3 blows D2 out of the water and it's not even funny, RoS has completely remade the game and it's by far the best loot-based action rpg in the market and probably of all time.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Rösti;174156420 said:
Mike Morhashimoto
The closest statement they made was this:
Source: http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/23/6833953/blizzard-cancels-titan-next-gen-mmo-pc
D2 dickwhips RoS for atmosphere.
ScatheZombie
Member
This doesn't excuse losing 45% of your player base in 6 months. There are a handful of perfectly healthy MMOs that are just as old as WoW. They don't have the same massive install base, but they also don't lose nearly half their players in a single expansion. If any other MMO company hemorrhaged this user percentage in that short of a time period, they'd be closed down. Both the game and the studio.
Yep.
If anything, the Token system would have increased subscriber numbers rather than decrease them. Players using Tokens to pay for their subscriptions are still counted as subscribers. The only change is that they aren't directly paying for that sub, someone else is in exchange for their gold. Having worked on a game that implemented a similar system, Tokens only served to stabilize and increase our subscriber numbers. The truth is, without tokens, there is the very strong likelihood that the drop would have been even worse.
It's only a bad business model if you are a monthly subscription game. When your revenue is dependent on your players continuing to give you monthly payments, you have to earn that money each and every month. And you can't accomplish that with 3+ months between minor updates and +6 months between major patches and 12+ months between expansions.
So they either need to drastically up their content output (which is likely impossible at this point) or change their payment model (I would not be surprised to see them go B2P or Freemium) with the next expansion.
Rösti;174156420 said:
Mike Morhaime said in the conference call that the next expansion will be tied to player feedback on Warlords of Draenor, and that we should be excited, in this aspect, for what they will show at gamescom.
I wonder if it's even A: Salvagable or B: Worth Salvaging.
5.6M isn't something to sniff at of course, by a long shot, many profitable MMO's with smaller userbases, but I'm putting focus on the ridiculously steep and fast level of decline.
A fair chunk of the core of WoW's history have left Blizzard, many of the devs have worked on it for over a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't that against WoW dropping off internally.
I could see them ending on a high (closing parts of the story, possibly even this next xpac), more so than literally bleeding it dry to the very end.
I'm hoping to hear some Diablo news at Blizzcon, a new xpac or D4 development would be pretty interesting, Hearthstone is doing fantastically too.
The drop off is a bit steep but if you look at that subscription curve it's not completely unexpected. With a game this old and so heavily played it's going to drop for a while now that it's on the downward side of the curve. Eventually it will hit a more steady user base and will continue on from there for however long. It will likely keep going for a significant amount of time even after it dips under 1 million.
Tons of great content over the years that I've had fun playing through. I'm hoping the next expansion really shakes things up even if it will likely mean that I only return for the leveling experience.
Tons of great content over the years that I've had fun playing through. I'm hoping the next expansion really shakes things up even if it will likely mean that I only return for the leveling experience.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Pandaria already started the chore. The farming was so tedious.
It was taking dailies to the next level.
RustedPieces
Banned
Just a few more years to go.
Velcro Fly
Member
WoW has been a dying game. It's a game for people with a ton invested already. It doesn't attract new people to the game enough and seems to drive tons of people away with every patch.
Good for D3 I guess. I got the PS3 version of the game and the first expansion and it was really fucking fun just playing it.
Good for D3 I guess. I got the PS3 version of the game and the first expansion and it was really fucking fun just playing it.
Maximus.
Member
I think the chore aspect is an issue that goes further than just garrisons. I played WoW when it first came out and loved it, but quests were a fucking chore. Everytime I got back in for a month or so, it started great, but the game just became a chore.
People I know that have been playing the game, typically come back for expansions, explore and complete the new content, raid a bit and then quit until the next big thing. They are bored with the game otherwise.
A single raid of WoW has more actual boss fights than a year of FFXIV updates, so I dunno how apt this comparison is.
Heavensward hasn't received a major patch since its launch yet either, and there's no indication of when we'll get it.
unknownstranger
Member
They're not going to get anywhere near the same bump next expansion, especially if they try charging $50 again. WoD was the most expensive expansion and had the least content by far.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I think it would be really, really interesting if the next xpac was an attempt to recapture what people liked of Vanilla and Burning Crusade. What you have now is millions of people who stopped playing and want one thing and the millions who do still play and want another, it makes sense to make the game for the ones who still play. The balancing act of making the game for both has been hard.
Worldshaker
Member
For how old the game is, I'm surprised it's still over 5 million.
I'm sure it'll stay profitable for a long time to come. I can't see another MMO replicating its success.
I'm sure it'll stay profitable for a long time to come. I can't see another MMO replicating its success.
I miss legit 5 mans that had legs. I remember having so much fun jumping in with friends and running some 5 man, back in the day when they were challenging (ie early heroics). Now they seem disposable and Bliz doesn't want to invest the time in their production. I go way back far enough to remember how cool it was when Dire Maul was patched in. Good times..
I was initially interested in challenge modes, but the beat a timer bit isn't fun to me. I prefer strategic play that requires careful cc and such.
I was initially interested in challenge modes, but the beat a timer bit isn't fun to me. I prefer strategic play that requires careful cc and such.
Milly Osworth
Member
atmosphere is cool for about 30 minutes when you are playing after that it's all gameplay! Gameplay wise D3 is much better than D2 I don't think anyone can even debate that.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Mythic Dungeons are very difficult though. Maybe not on par to the insane BC Heroics but close.
Mists dungeons were terrible though. I kind of wish they would make another huge/long dungeon but they haven't really done that since Vanilla.
Good but flawed base game followed up by good patches, a great expansion, console versions and various half off sales and boom, sale monster.
When D3 has relevant PvP I'll say it's finally beyond debate. D2 was more impressive for the time than D3 is now, though.
Milly Osworth
Member
Orrrrr, they continue to just milk it at minimal cost and maybe try free to play at some point. I go with that 😖
I really wonder what they have in store for this new expansion. They seemed confident in it, however, rumors show that it's the typical kind of content (new class, old god raid, etc.). I don't know how much that will help if it's going to continue the same trend.
Would focusing on smaller scale content help? Maybe 5 man dungeons actually mean something and have some kind of challenge? Instead of requiring at least 10-20 people for the "main" pve content, there's also 5 man content that's equally important?
I've played WoW since Vanilla, hardcore in BC and Wotlk, then casual from Cata, MoP and now. QoL stuff in WoW has only gotten better since the game came out obviously but everything seems so watered down with a lack of incentive and challenge now. I don't know the solution or how to explain the state of the game for me. I still enjoy it to a degree (I pvp mainly) but something just feels off.
Would focusing on smaller scale content help? Maybe 5 man dungeons actually mean something and have some kind of challenge? Instead of requiring at least 10-20 people for the "main" pve content, there's also 5 man content that's equally important?
I've played WoW since Vanilla, hardcore in BC and Wotlk, then casual from Cata, MoP and now. QoL stuff in WoW has only gotten better since the game came out obviously but everything seems so watered down with a lack of incentive and challenge now. I don't know the solution or how to explain the state of the game for me. I still enjoy it to a degree (I pvp mainly) but something just feels off.
Mikey Jr.
Member
I really hope we get another MMO soon.
I completely missed wow. I could have gotten into it 2 years ago, but it just felt like there was so much and it had all passed me by.
I can't wait to get in on the ground level of another Blizzard MMO.
Anyone think theres a chance they could include a console version? Or will stick stick to PC again?
I completely missed wow. I could have gotten into it 2 years ago, but it just felt like there was so much and it had all passed me by.
I can't wait to get in on the ground level of another Blizzard MMO.
Anyone think theres a chance they could include a console version? Or will stick stick to PC again?
As a huge fan of Diablo 3, yes, I can debate that. D2 is still king.
maniac-kun
Member
Its almost like people dont like to play that game anymore.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
A very interesting question Mike Morhaime answered in the call. I will transcribe it once the call has concluded.
Except for maybe a dozen masochistic lunatics, most people would probably make it one or two weeks tops before they realize how shit vanilla WoW was and they want to jump ship to something decidedly less dated. Then maybe they'll realize that it's not the game of vanilla WoW that they miss, it's the community that was around it.
Well lets agree to disagree, I surely can't go back to D2 after Reaper of Souls.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Skill-based gameplay/progression vs item-based gameplay/progression.
I agree that RoS improved D3 by alot, that still doesn't excuse that 4/5 of the game's campaign sucks ass and endgame is regurgitated to rift farming all day everyday.
I like D3 and play it every 2 months, but the praise it gets is unfounded as RoS fixed the game, not expand it (like an expansion should).
"we have more delevopers working on WoW than ever before"
Again with this line.
How is it possible that with that many people working on WoW, only 2 patches with content got released in WoD. Tanaan jungle was supposed to be there at launch on got delayed for the last patch and then they had another raid and 2 new zones planned which also got scrapped. And that's stuff that we know didn't make it in, who knows how much stuff got cut behind the scenes.
If this is what happens when you have tons of people working on WoW then maybe they should put those people on another game.
Again with this line.
How is it possible that with that many people working on WoW, only 2 patches with content got released in WoD. Tanaan jungle was supposed to be there at launch on got delayed for the last patch and then they had another raid and 2 new zones planned which also got scrapped. And that's stuff that we know didn't make it in, who knows how much stuff got cut behind the scenes.
If this is what happens when you have tons of people working on WoW then maybe they should put those people on another game.
Bacon_Boss
Member
I posted this on mmo a few minutes ago:
Garrisons getting such a massive focus in addition to this was just so confusing. When I hit 100 i went straight to ashran to pick up the new story line quests and they just weren't there. They were hidden in your garrison, and happened in the same places you did your little apexis shard daily. Otherwise, unless you were naked or interested in achievement hunting, the game was over as far as content on the actual Continent. There were no reputations with quests, I don't think there was even a new battleground.
What are they doing with their content teams? The cataclysm reskin BGs are some of my favorites, they can't slap together some assets and give us a new capture the flag map, even? Can't put a random hole with an instance portal somewhere in nagrand and make a new 5 man? In a YEAR?!
I love this game, and I was on the defense force all the way until this expac. But c'mon blizzard, wtf.
Garrisons getting such a massive focus in addition to this was just so confusing. When I hit 100 i went straight to ashran to pick up the new story line quests and they just weren't there. They were hidden in your garrison, and happened in the same places you did your little apexis shard daily. Otherwise, unless you were naked or interested in achievement hunting, the game was over as far as content on the actual Continent. There were no reputations with quests, I don't think there was even a new battleground.
What are they doing with their content teams? The cataclysm reskin BGs are some of my favorites, they can't slap together some assets and give us a new capture the flag map, even? Can't put a random hole with an instance portal somewhere in nagrand and make a new 5 man? In a YEAR?!
I love this game, and I was on the defense force all the way until this expac. But c'mon blizzard, wtf.
RuneScape launched classic servers a year or two back, and they still maintain a rather healthy userbase. I'm not saying it's free money or anything that ridiculous, but Blizzard could make money from it.
I'm not, they changed design philosophy this expansion, that was rather unfriendly for casuals.
The wow fanbase is older now (.ie it's the same players just older) and they just don't have the time for WoD wow.
Because it's multiple teams. Not everyone working on WoW was working on 6.2, they're on the next expansion already.
Napalm_Frank
Member
I'm just jesting. My best memories of WoW are from vanilla but I think from what expansions I played ( WOTLK, CATA) they did make huge leaps in many ways and wotlk was a great expansion especially. Tho there are many actual gameplay elements from Vanilla I wish still remained.
Dargor
Member
I agree, but garrisons are a bigger offender in my opinion because they messed with other aspects of the game too. Certain professions are practically useless now, since you can have them in your garrison.
The perks really don't outweigh the flaws in my opinion.