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World War II |OT|

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Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
You can't say they would have surrendered like it's fact. There were probably people who thought they'd surrender in a second if we just dropped the first bomb in the ocean near them, but we didn't drop it on the ocean, and they still didn't surrender. The war was over, Japan knew it, they were going against entire Allied Forced but they wouldn't surrender, and the US was going to do what it took to force them too, not sit around while Japan rebuilt, and not risk more lives with a risky ground assault.

The aftermath speaks for itself, Japan has rebuilt into an economic power house, and are now good allies with the US. What's done is done and it's silly to speculate may have happened in an alternate reality.

I understand why the bombs were dropped. There were a number of factors that went into it.. ending the war to save US lives was one.. testing the weapon was another, ending the war before Russia could enter Japan was another.

And as said they did surrender in a way.. But getting Japan to surrender to the US and not "the Allies" as a whole was the power play..
 
To fully understand how the first World War started and how it affected the occurence of World War II, I strongly recommend the viewing of this awesome documentary:

oSTei.jpg


It's the perfect lead-in to "The World at War".

Just got done watching this. It was terrific.

However I'm wondering where I should go to next? I mean I want to see the rise of Nazi Germany before watching a World War II documentary.
 
Just got done watching this. It was terrific.

However I'm wondering where I should go to next? I mean I want to see the rise of Nazi Germany before watching a World War II documentary.

''The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'' is an excellent and most likely the best book if you are interested in the subject. If books are not your thing you could check ''Hitler: The Rise of Evil'' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gsy4xs02Hs

World War 2 documents I can recommend ''The World at War'' for a more in depth look. ''Apocalypse: World War 2'' is pretty good also but much shorter. It does have footage in colour tho so that is pretty cool.

If I remember correctly The World at Wars first episode is about the Nazi Party before the war.
 
absolute nonsense. There wasn't one single antagonist of the war, but the ones who eventually won got to portray the germans as such. The conditions of Versailles would make any country turn fascist, it was basically putting a red nose on the entire populace and then putting their collective face into a pile of French shit while mocking their mother. Versailles was an absolute joke of a treaty and is basically put into history as an absolute NO GO when dealing with nations post war.


Notice the respective handlings of Germany turning her into a fascist state, the other into an economic powerhouse with an honest and humble population.

Yes, many mainstream historians think Versailles being so unfair led to the rise of Hitler.

There were similar considerations that played into the selection of the targets for the Fat Man and Little boy nuclear bombs.

The US took Kyoto off the table because they thought if they destroyed that place, it would deeply mess up the Japanese psyche. And cause Japan to not reform after the war. Same reasoning for letting the Emporer stay in place.

Although I think in part because of that, Japan teaches its citizens a somewhat warped historical perspective of WWII. And I've read the govt still refuses to accept responsibility or even admit to the war crimes committed in mainland China by their Imperial Japanese forces during the occupation and war. It was as bad or possibly worse than the Holocaust in Europe.
 

dschalter

Member
Germany actually had a pretty awesome k/d ratio judging from that chart.

this was true in the two big wars it was involved in previously as well; since the reforms made in prussia after napoleon the prussian military became about the best in the world and its was the core of germany.
 

Jimothy

Member
I'm currently reading Scorched Earth by Paul Carrell. It's extremely biased towards the Germans, but it's probably the best book about the Eastern Front I've read so far. It's both extremely informative and readable at the same time. There's a section about Manstein's counter-stoke at Kharkov that saved the entire German army in the South that's absolutely riveting. Must read book for any WWII buff.
 

antonz

Member
One of Germanys biggest flaws against Russia was the fact German engineering was so good. The Tiger tanks were so specialized that they were not easy to repair etc meanwhile Russia pumped out easy to repair mass produced stuff.

Germany started to rectify it with the Tiger II but it was too late by that point.
 

Martian

Member
One of Germanys biggest flaws against Russia was the fact German engineering was so good. The Tiger tanks were so specialized that they were not easy to repair etc meanwhile Russia pumped out easy to repair mass produced stuff.

Germany started to rectify it with the Tiger II but it was too late by that point.


I'm not too sure that the German was so good, but more that the Russian engineering was so bad. They truly made mass production, and cheap, tanks and other military gear
 

Kabouter

Member
One of Germanys biggest flaws against Russia was the fact German engineering was so good. The Tiger tanks were so specialized that they were not easy to repair etc meanwhile Russia pumped out easy to repair mass produced stuff.

Germany started to rectify it with the Tiger II but it was too late by that point.

During August 1944, a number of Tiger II tanks were captured by the Soviets near Sandomierz and were soon moved to their testing grounds at Kubinka. The Soviet team gave the opinion that the tests revealed the tanks to be severely defective; the transmission and suspension broke down very frequently and the engine was prone to overheating and consequential failure. Additionally, the Soviets opinion was of deficiencies in the armor after firing many anti-tank rounds at the same target. Not only did they report that the metal was of shoddy quality (a problem not particular to the Tiger II—as the war progressed, the Germans found it harder and harder to obtain the alloys needed for high-quality steel), but the welding was also, despite "careful workmanship", extremely poor. As a result, even when shells did not penetrate the armor, there was often a large amount of spalling, and the armor plating could often crack at the welds when struck by multiple heavy shells, rendering the tank inoperable.
Mmmh.
 

Jimothy

Member
One of Germanys biggest flaws against Russia was the fact German engineering was so good. The Tiger tanks were so specialized that they were not easy to repair etc meanwhile Russia pumped out easy to repair mass produced stuff.

Germany started to rectify it with the Tiger II but it was too late by that point.

The new Panthers and Tigers at Kursk broke down constantly, while the T-34's were incredibly reliable. Germany's engineers, like their army, tend to get overrated a lot.
 

antonz

Member

Engine issues was a big concern with the Tiger IIs but the overall engineering allowed for an easier time than what the Tiger Is offered. In an ideal situation where Germany hadnt been scrapping the bottom of the barrel alot of the issues with the Tiger IIs would have been resolved such as shoddy armor due to limited stocks. It was a cause for the constant design work the Germans were going through with the E-50,E-75s,E-100s.

They were working hard to come up with their own one size fits all part tank line but they started far too late. Germany let itself think it was going well longer than reality actually was. If they had started The Entwicklung series far earlier things could have ben different on the eastern front. They would have still lost but a standardized tank line instead of Specialized would have made things alot different.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
The new Panthers and Tigers at Kursk broke down constantly, while the T-34's were incredibly reliable. Germany's engineers, like their army, tend to get overrated a lot.

QFT.

The Germans were also incredibly arrogant. Dont quote me on this but I read somewhere that German soldiers captured a perfectly intact Russian T-34, but rather than copy the design and better it, they stuck to producing their own shitty, ineffective tanks.

Hitler had such a hard-on for Germany, he couldnt possibly believe that other nations could have better engineers and equipment. I'm sure this arrogance had a lot to do with why they lost the war.
 
I just find it insane that Germany alone took on so many people. Japan was fighting their own war and Mussolini was a joke. Yet it took until the Soviets to ramp production and America to get into the game before tables started turning on that single nation.
 

diehard

Fleer
QFT.

The Germans were also incredibly arrogant. Dont quote me on this but I read somewhere that German soldiers captured a perfectly intact Russian T-34, but rather than copy the design and better it, they stuck to producing their own shitty, ineffective tanks.

Hitler had such a hard-on for Germany, he couldnt possibly believe that other nations could have better engineers and equipment. I'm sure this arrogance had a lot to do with why they lost the war.

German tanks were not shitty or ineffective, they didn't have the sloped armor design of the T34's but the Panther tank was arguably the best all-around of the war. They did have hard time in the cold weather, however. The Tiger was a marvel in 1942, and clearly the single best tank mid-war.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
I just find it insane that Germany alone took on so many people. Japan was fighting their own war and Mussolini was a joke. Yet it took until the Soviets to ramp production and America to get into the game before tables started turning on that single nation.

Well Fascism gets stuff done. Gotta give them credit where its due. Germans dont mess around.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
QFT.

The Germans were also incredibly arrogant. Dont quote me on this but I read somewhere that German soldiers captured a perfectly intact Russian T-34, but rather than copy the design and better it, they stuck to producing their own shitty, ineffective tanks.

Hitler had such a hard-on for Germany, he couldnt possibly believe that other nations could have better engineers and equipment. I'm sure this arrogance had a lot to do with why they lost the war.

Actually the Panzers were really good tanks...it was the rushed Tigers that sucked, they were made during the war tho...
 

Kabouter

Member
Actually the Panzers were really good tanks...it was the rushed Tigers that sucked, they were made during the war tho...

Well, I would say the strength of the pre-war Panzers was mainly in three areas: Reliability, speed and communication. In terms of firepower and especially armour, Germany's pre-war Panzers were by and large poor, which is why the 88mm flak cannon proved so important in France.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Well, I would say the strength of the pre-war Panzers was mainly in three areas: Reliability, speed and communication. In terms of firepower and especially armour, Germany's pre-war Panzers were by and large poor, which is why the 88mm flak cannon proved so important in France.

The panzer IV was perhaps the most versatile tank of WWII...

Pre-war Panzers werent so hot but war time Panzers were
 

diehard

Fleer
France actually had superior armor to German, those Panzer II's and III's were fast, but not well armored or armed. Sticking a Flak 88 onto the Tiger changed all that though.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
German tanks were not shitty or ineffective, they didn't have the sloped armor design of the T34's but the Panther tank was arguably the best all-around of the war. They did have hard time in the cold weather, however. The Tiger was a marvel in 1942, and clearly the single best tank mid-war.

I overstated. Your right. German tanks weren't shitty or ineffective, especially early in the war. The problem was that Germany was running out of resources and skilled men. This compounded by the fact their tank designs were intricate and difficult to produce, made their tank production seriously falter.

Also your right about cold weather conditions. Germany never properly prepared themselves or their tanks for winter combat. Combine that with one of the longest, coldest Russian winters on record and you've got a disaster.

I stand behind most of what I said though. Hitler showed an unwillingness to adapt to the changing circumstances of the war. I'd also argue his pro-German mind-set and arrogance led to him underestimating his opponents, especially the Russians.
 

Kabouter

Member
The panzer IV was perhaps the most versatile tank of WWII...

Pre-war Panzers werent so hot but war time Panzers were

Well, I would say the T-34/85 was the most versatile tank, but certainly the Panzer IV was a great tank, though really only after the faults they found fighting in Poland and France were fixed and later versions were produced. Much like with the T-34 I suppose.
 

Jimothy

Member
Well, I would say the T-34/85 was the most versatile tank, but certainly the Panzer IV was a great tank, though really only after the faults they found fighting in Poland and France were fixed and later versions were produced. Much like with the T-34 I suppose.

The T-34 is unquestionably the best tank of WWII and quite possibly ever. The Germans had better training and tactics, but their tanks from 1941-1943 were vastly inferior to the Russians' in terms of armor and firepower. It took the Russians a while to learn proper Blitzkrieg, but when they finally figured it out, the war was pretty much over.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Well, I would say the T-34/85 was the most versatile tank, but certainly the Panzer IV was a great tank, though really only after the faults they found fighting in Poland and France were fixed and later versions were produced. Much like with the T-34 I suppose.

The T-34/85 became the model tank world wide, but the Panzer IV was used in so many different designs during the war, plus it had a Maybach engine, which is just styling
 
I understand why the bombs were dropped. There were a number of factors that went into it.. ending the war to save US lives was one.. testing the weapon was another, ending the war before Russia could enter Japan was another.

And as said they did surrender in a way.. But getting Japan to surrender to the US and not "the Allies" as a whole was the power play..

Do you think the United States was actually concerned about the Soviets invading Japan? They dragged their feet and didn't even declare war until one of the very last days of the war...I think Stalin understood that this was an American fight that the USSR had nothing realistically to gain.

Also, another thing that people forget is that Japan was secretly trying to negotiate a peace settlement with the United States but Truman stuck to Roosevelt's notion of unconditional surrender. Just throwing that out there.
 

Kabouter

Member
The T-34 is unquestionably the best tank of WWII and quite possibly ever. The Germans had better training and tactics, but their tanks from 1941-1943 were vastly inferior to the Russians' in terms of armor and firepower. It took the Russians a while to learn proper Blitzkrieg, but when they finally figured it out, the war was pretty much over.

More so it took the Soviets a while to learn how to listen to Georgi Zhukov, given that his victory in Stalingrad was won in pretty much exactly the same way as the Battle of Khalkhin Gol over three years earlier.

The T-34/85 became the model tank world wide, but the Panzer IV was used in so many different designs during the war, plus it had a Maybach engine, which is just styling

No shortage of designs based on the T-34, absolutely agreed on the Maybach engine though. Just badass.
 
You know the crazy thing? We bitch and moan about the 5k casualties from our current wars, and yet 5k casualities back then could happen within a matter of fucking hours, if not minutes. War on a ridiculous level.
 
I just find it insane that Germany alone took on so many people. Japan was fighting their own war and Mussolini was a joke. Yet it took until the Soviets to ramp production and America to get into the game before tables started turning on that single nation.

Don't underestimate the power of the blitzkrieg. What I find more fascinating is that the Soviets actually developed this tactic but killed the guy who thought of it during Stalin's "great purge" of the officer corps. The Red Army was so backwards, it boggles the mind.
 

Kabouter

Member
You know the crazy thing? We bitch and moan about the 5k casualties from our current wars, and yet 5k casualities back then could happen within a matter of fucking hours, if not minutes. War on a ridiculous level.
You know what's also crazy? A single Soviet nuclear test during the cold war had ten times the combined power of all explosives used in WW2 :p.
 
Don't underestimate the power of the blitzkrieg. What I find more fascinating is that the Soviets actually developed this tactic but killed the guy who thought of it during Stalin's "great purge" of the officer corps. The Red Army was so backwards, it boggles the mind.

Had Stalin kept his Generals, I'd dare say the Germans would've gotten fucking steamrolled even earlier had Stalin let them do their job.
 

Jimothy

Member
Don't underestimate the power of the blitzkrieg. What I find more fascinating is that the Soviets actually developed this tactic but killed the guy who thought of it during Stalin's "great purge" of the officer corps. The Red Army was so backwards, it boggles the mind.

Hitler's decision to attack Russia when he did was actually pretty smart. The Red Army was in complete shambles from the generals down to the ground troops. It was as good a chance as any to inflict a crushing blow on the Soviets. The amount of casualties the Germans inflicted was absolutely insane. With hindsight, the 10 week timetable to defeat Russia looks ridiculous, but it looked totally feasible in those first weeks.
 

Kola

Member
Yes, many mainstream historians think Versailles being so unfair led to the rise of Hitler.

There were similar considerations that played into the selection of the targets for the Fat Man and Little boy nuclear bombs.

The US took Kyoto off the table because they thought if they destroyed that place, it would deeply mess up the Japanese psyche. And cause Japan to not reform after the war. Same reasoning for letting the Emporer stay in place.

From what I read, it's not entirely clear why Kyoto was off the map. I even read, that the wife of the general in charge begged not to bomb Kyoto, because it was just too beautiful...

Although I think in part because of that, Japan teaches its citizens a somewhat warped historical perspective of WWII. And I've read the govt still refuses to accept responsibility or even admit to the war crimes committed in mainland China by their Imperial Japanese forces during the occupation and war. It was as bad or possibly worse than the Holocaust in Europe.

As a German currently living in Japan I'm quite amazed to read that. I guess you're referring to Nanjing, Hongkong, Unit 731 etc. Yes, they were horrible incidents, recently the mayor of Nagoya even made some stupid remarks regarding Nanjing (but was critized heavily by other Japanese officials), and don't get me started on Yasukuni-jinja. But after all, the Shoa is a totally different thing, atrocious and absolutely not comparable to anything that happened in the Pacific War.
 

Kabouter

Member
Had Stalin kept his Generals, I'd dare say the Germans would've gotten fucking steamrolled even earlier had Stalin let them do their job.

Good commanders don't make poor soldier training and extremely poor and outdated equipment just disappear. The Red Army's many failures between 1939-1941 were by no means caused solely by poor commanders.
 
Hitler's decision to attack Russia when he did was actually pretty smart. The Red Army was in complete shambles from the generals down to the ground troops. It was as good a chance as any to inflict a crushing blow on the Soviets. The amount of casualties the Germans inflicted was absolutely insane. With hindsight, the 10 week timetable to defeat Russia looks ridiculous, but it looked totally feasible in those first weeks.

Operation Barbarossa was pushed back, he waited too long to attack the USSR as history tells us. The Wermacht fell into the same trap Napoleon did in the 19th century. Sure they inflicted massive casualties on the Red Army but manpower was something the Russians didn't have to worry about.

But yeah, that first summer was brutal
 
Good commanders don't make poor soldier training and extremely poor and outdated equipment just disappear. The Red Army's many failures between 1939-1941 were by no means caused solely by poor commanders.

I'd argue that the commanders were overwhelmingly the main reason. You know there's a problem when you have trouble with Finland (Winter War) even if you have outdated equipment. These generals had little or no military experience, they were put in place after the purge because Stalin knew they were loyal.
 

Jimothy

Member
Operation Barbarossa was pushed back, he waited too long to attack the USSR as history tells us.

Mid-June was about the earliest the Germans could attack. That spring had record rainfall, so the dirt roads would have completely bogged down their advance like it did later that year. The good weather at the start of the offensive is one of the reasons the Wermacht achieved as much as it did.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
WWII was so fucking insane, the whole thing is out a of fucking movie. I mean seriously Hitler?!?! The mofo was a straight up comic book villain. The scariest thing of it all is that it happened only 65-70 years ago.
 
Mid-June was about the earliest the Germans could attack. That spring had record rainfall, so the dirt roads would have completely bogged down their advance like it did later that year. The good weather at the start of the offensive is one of the reasons the Wermacht achieved as much as it did.

He could have attacked in May of 1941 but intervened in the Balkans
 

Jimothy

Member
He could have attacked in May of 1941 but intervened in the Balkans

Yes, but even if the Balkans didn't have to be secured, the weather wouldn't have permitted Barbarossa to kick off by May.

Here's a quote from the book Hitler's War about the floods:

What mitigated against a theoretical invasion at the end of May or in early June was the fact that many rivers in the western Soviet Union which would have to be crossed in the course of the attack, including the Bug and the Narew, were still in flood until well into June and would therefore have presented a very disagreeable obstruction .For this reason alone,an attack after 10 june appeared to be the only realistic possibility .
Magenheimer gives the following source:
Zapantis:"Hitler's Balkan Campaign,P 86 et seq.
 
You know the crazy thing? We bitch and moan about the 5k casualties from our current wars, and yet 5k casualities back then could happen within a matter of fucking hours, if not minutes. War on a ridiculous level.

I still have very unpopular opinions on the "horror' of 9/11 because of thoughts like this.


Had Stalin kept his Generals, I'd dare say the Germans would've gotten fucking steamrolled even earlier had Stalin let them do their job.

Its insane how powerful the Soviet Union was. What happened that Communism went so wrong power wise?
 

MIKEAL

Banned
Something I've always wondered. People say it would have been impossible for the British air force to commit air strikes over Berlin in the early stages of the war, yet they were perfectly able and did airdrop leaflets over Germany while Chamberlain was still in charge, so what gives? Also, why so few men in France and why such piss-poor planning in Norway during the critical early stages of the war? It seems like no one took Hitler seriously or something
 

Forsete

Member
I wanted to share some pictures which my grandfather took. But now I cant find them. :/ He was a signalist in the Swedish air-force during WW2. One of them was from a shot down/crashed Messerschmitt Bf 109.

He kept a notebook during those years, it is amazing how many people died during pilot training back then. Too bad I never met him, I would have had a million questions for him.
 

Bregor

Member
Command economies are good at waging war. Free market economies are good at peace and standard of living. When no major war occurred, the Soviet Union was forced to play the game that capitalism was better at, rather than the game they were better at.
 

Puddles

Banned
Suppose the Western and Mediterranean fronts never open. The whole war is just Germany against Russia.

Could Germany have pulled out the W?
 

Cat Party

Member
Something I've always wondered. People say it would have been impossible for the British air force to commit air strikes over Berlin in the early stages of the war, yet they were perfectly able and did airdrop leaflets over Germany while Chamberlain was still in charge, so what gives? Also, why so few men in France and why such piss-poor planning in Norway during the critical early stages of the war? It seems like no one took Hitler seriously or something


The biggest issue re: the troops in France was that everyone assumed France could hold its own for a long time if attacked. They were considered to have one of the finest militaries in the world, and the Maginot Line was incredibly formidable. Well, it turns out France's military was actually fairly shitty and poorly equipped. And although the Maginot Line really was as formidable has it was billed, the Germans were able to sidestep it in a way that was (foolishly) not predicted. It is one of the most famous, and most costly, military blunders in history.

They did take Hitler seriously, but the fall of France in such extraordinarily quick fashion was not predicted, and basically unprecedented in the history of these European wars.
 

Bregor

Member
The biggest issue re: the troops in France was that everyone assumed France could hold its own for a long time if attacked. They were considered to have one of the finest militaries in the world, and the Maginot Line was incredibly formidable. Well, it turns out France's military was actually fairly shitty and poorly equipped. And although the Maginot Line really was as formidable has it was billed, the Germans were able to sidestep it in a way that was (foolishly) not predicted. It is one of the most famous, and most costly, military blunders in history.


The French did not expect the Germans to attack through the Maginot line. It's main purpose was to reduce the manpower needed to hold the main German / French border so that mobile troops could be used elsewhere. The Allies knew that Germany would probably go through Belgium, avoiding the Maginot line - indeed the original battle plans for the Germans fell into Belgium hands! Because of the potential compromise of their plans that the Germans switched to the Mainstein Plan, which called for the encirclement of the Allied armies when they rushed forward to assist Belgium. This is what happened in reality, large portions of the French army were encircled and destroyed, and the French army never was given time to recover and regroup.

So in fact, it wasn't the fact that France expected Germany to attack the Maginot line that was fatal, it was the fact that they rushed forward when they thought they saw what they expected - German forces on a swing through Belgium in exactly the same manner as in World War 1.

The quality of the French Military was mixed, but they did have some excellent tanks. However, doctrinally they used them poorly - Instead of concentrating their tanks in divisions for a heavy armored punch, they spread them out through all the divisions of their army. The main trouble was that the Germans had a doctrine for using their armor effectively, and the French didn't.
 

dschalter

Member
Command economies are good at waging war. Free market economies are good at peace and standard of living. When no major war occurred, the Soviet Union was forced to play the game that capitalism was better at, rather than the game they were better at.

this is a myth. command economies are not particularly good at waging war, because morale is absolutely key to fighting- people have to be enthusiastic and willing to fight and produce for their country and that kind of spirit is lacking in a command economy. the utter shambles that soviet military was in is a reasonable reflection of this; it was only because germany's aims were so grandiose that national spirit kicked in that the soviet union was able to win. nazi germany which was not a command economy was quite good at fighting as well.

though people don't really like to admit such things (either because its 'boring' or because they aren't big fans of america), america was the nation with the greatest military potential even then, simply because of the combined strength of its industry and the general support of the population for the system of government.

Suppose the Western and Mediterranean fronts never open. The whole war is just Germany against Russia.

this is a scenario i've pondered a lot. i think that germany would eventually lose, simply because hitler's aims were so expansive. germany only had 80 million or so people and given that it in a true 1 v 1 it wouldn't be getting extra manpower from its allies (obviously that is less important than allied aid in the west, but it isn't trivial by any means) i think the losses would be too great in the end.


The biggest issue re: the troops in France was that everyone assumed France could hold its own for a long time if attacked. They were considered to have one of the finest militaries in the world, and the Maginot Line was incredibly formidable. Well, it turns out France's military was actually fairly shitty and poorly equipped. And although the Maginot Line really was as formidable has it was billed, the Germans were able to sidestep it in a way that was (foolishly) not predicted. It is one of the most famous, and most costly, military blunders in history.

They did take Hitler seriously, but the fall of France in such extraordinarily quick fashion was not predicted, and basically unprecedented in the history of these European wars.

france's military was decently equipped, it was just woefully behind the times when it came to military doctrine, far behind the germans and even well behind their british allies who didn't care much for military matters. as for the maginot line, the basic error was not realizing the importance of motorized and armored divisions. if technology had remained static, it would have been a reasonable way of ensuring that french troops could focus on where the germans were most likely to attack, but in reality german tanks rolled through the ardennnes quickly enough to catch the french almost by surprise.

Something I've always wondered. People say it would have been impossible for the British air force to commit air strikes over Berlin in the early stages of the war, yet they were perfectly able and did airdrop leaflets over Germany while Chamberlain was still in charge, so what gives? Also, why so few men in France and why such piss-poor planning in Norway during the critical early stages of the war? It seems like no one took Hitler seriously or something

bombers, at least in theory, need targets and they need to try and hit those targets (unlike leaflets)! area bombardment requires quite a few bombers to be effective and britain needed to focus on air defense above all else anyway.
 
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