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(WSJ) At Banks, New Fees on debit, credit cards, checking accounts.

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JGS said:
Uh, I've been in banking at the consumer level for at least ten years. I don't need more education, the common customer does. The've been duped by their own outrage.

This has nothing to do with feeling sorry for banks, this has to do with feeling sorry for the customer and the idiocy in thinkng that a for profit banking system is all of a sudden going to say "Oh Well..."

Because of regulation in place, people are either paying more for services or not getting the services the used to get.

If the government wants to regulate something, fine. Just do it intelligently. This one was most certainly not.

The regulations took away fees (& perks for that matter) that have largely always been optional such as Overdraft protection and replaced them with mandatory fees and less sympathy.

How many free accounts were out there before these idiotic rules were put into place? More is the answer. The costs of the fees didn't change at all since the regulations didn't think to put caps on stuff (ugh) just thinking that the customer was too stupid make decisions. Most banks always gave the right to opt out of stuff, so it was a non-issue and the one thing people were griping about remained.

We're not even going to get into the horrors of the credit card industry now.

The regulations needed to be thought out and they were not by a long shot.

So not being able to arrange transactions to their own desire to maximize overdraft fees and no longer FORCE YOU to pay overdrafts are just in anger to piss off the bank? You still have the option for banks to pay your overdraft so?
 

Tarazet

Member
gcubed said:
ING and its done

I tried to sign up for ING checking. Their website asked a bunch of obscure questions about my family members, then flunked me because apparently I failed to convince them I am me. Either they have inaccurate information, or they know more than I do. And now I can never apply to them again. Completely unacceptable.
 

JGS

Banned
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
So not being able to arrange transactions to their own desire to maximize overdraft fees and no longer FORCE YOU to pay overdrafts are just in anger to piss off the bank? You still have the option for banks to pay your overdraft so?
This is the big deception. You already had that ability. If you had a bank that literally refused to allow you to opt-out, then you needed to leave immediately. The default option simply changed. Opt-In should have been the default since it literally hurts no one unless you suck at finances. If you suck at finances you still are going to have fees from the account.

The number of people that come into my office complainng about fees has not changed- literally. The only difference is my sympathy for them because I can point out that they specifically refused OD protection. The fees have gone down for the bank mainly for debit card transactions, but there's plenty of other ways bad customers can be charged.

Further that fee stays the same regardless. A wiser regulation would have been to tag to the fee to the transaction costs + the servicing cost incurred by the bank (Those OD do cost the bank money but not much). You are still being forced to pay fees plus the banks are allowed to make up limitless new ones or raise fees on existing ones.

To be clear, I'm not against regulation at all. Being in finance there's always been tons of them to deal with, but when they are based on politics and public outrage from a customer base, it will go wrong. The public will simply find something else to be outraged against rather than taking advantage of competition in the marketplace.
 

turnbuckle

Member
captmcblack said:
Tell me more about ING Direct.

What would I use ING for in conjunction with a credit union? Currently, I bank with Chase (used to be with Wamu).

- I need to have checking and savings. Ideally it would be free; I don't worry currently about maintaining balances since I get paid weekly.
- Ideally I'd have a checking/ATM card I can use as a card to pay for things directly (debit/credit) and online.
- Ideally, I'd have access to some ATM machines somewhere in NYC where I wouldn't have to pay $3 for the usage and $2 for a "non-bank ATM fee".

It would seem that joining a credit union would make it hard for me to do much banking in person, since there may be like 1 or 2 locations in the 5 boroughs total.

I use my local bank to deposit any checks I receive and so I have access to free ATMs.
Link it to my ING account - where I keep all of my savings, and most of my checking - so I can transfer the money from the checks I deposit. There are some local ATMs that don't charge for ING but not too many.

Don't have any fees through ING, their interest rates are generally better than regular banks, and the only time I was overdrawn (through a computer error on my previous landlord charging me multiple rents all at once) the total cost to take care of it was something less than $1.00.

I've been inside my local bank a total of like 5 times in the last year, and that's only because my roommate pays his portion of the bills to me through checks. If not for that, I wouldn't have stepped inside a bank since 2006 or so.
 
JGS said:
This is the big deception. You already had that ability. If you had a bank that literally refused to allow you to opt-out, then you needed to leave immediately. The default option simply changed. Opt-In should have been the default since it literally hurts no one unless you suck at finances. If you suck at finances you still are going to have fees from the account.

The number of people that come into my office complainng about fees has not changed- literally. The only difference is my sympathy for them because I can point out that they specifically refused OD protection. The fees have gone down for the bank mainly for debit card transactions, but there's plenty of other ways bad customers can be charged.

Further that fee stays the same regardless. A wiser regulation would have been to tag to the fee to the transaction costs + the servicing cost incurred by the bank (Those OD do cost the bank money but not much). You are still being forced to pay fees plus the banks are allowed to make up limitless new ones or raise fees on existing ones.

To be clear, I'm not against regulation at all. Being in finance there's always been tons of them to deal with, but when they are based on politics and public outrage from a customer base, it will go wrong. The public will simply find something else to be outraged against rather than taking advantage of competition in the marketplace.

Except it was hurting people who were taking care of their finances. Did you purposefully not read the beginning of my post? If all it is is the default then who cares since they can still charge it by your logic? You make it sound like this is earth shattering but all it did was for more transparency that you can. When I opened my first account I asked tons of questions and they told me that I pay the fee or pay or the overdraft protection as my options.
 
turnbuckle said:
I use my local bank to deposit any checks I receive and so I have access to free ATMs.
Link it to my ING account - where I keep all of my savings, and most of my checking - so I can transfer the money from the checks I deposit. There are some local ATMs that don't charge for ING but not too many.

Don't have any fees through ING, their interest rates are generally better than regular banks, and the only time I was overdrawn (through a computer error on my previous landlord charging me multiple rents all at once) the total cost to take care of it was something less than $1.00.

I've been inside my local bank a total of like 5 times in the last year, and that's only because my roommate pays his portion of the bills to me through checks. If not for that, I wouldn't have stepped inside a bank since 2006 or so.

Hmm interesting about the linking idea. We just switched from Bank of Fail to ING and couldn't be happier. Might have to think about the linking thing though for a way to deposit cash besides DD into the account(s).
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
OK, let me get this straight, unless you maintain a $1500 minimum daily balance at Chase, you have to have at least one direct deposit of $500 each month, or you will be feed?
 

turnbuckle

Member
NintendoGal said:
Hmm interesting about the linking idea. We just switched from Bank of Fail to ING and couldn't be happier. Might have to think about the linking thing though for a way to deposit cash besides DD into the account(s).

So long as your bank doesn't have inactive fees or anything else as described in the OP it really is a great arrangement.

Also, I've used my ING Debit card about 5 times in the last 2 years and never use my local banks ATM at all. I keep about $100 on me, and it's the same money that's been in my wallet for several months. I pay for just about everything using Credit Cards, use my ING checking to zero out my CC balances every month. So on top of not having any banking fees and receiving above average (though still historically low) interest through my checking and savings accounts I'm racking up CC rewards too.

If regulation makes it so CC providers no longer provide rewards I'm cool with that. It's a nice bonus, but it's a bonus that's subsidized by the poor. Just being able to have the money for all my purchases collect interest in my account each month is a nice enough incentive to keep doing what I'm doing.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
otake said:
How are regulations to blame? Is a regulation telling the banks to charge their customers for these services?

Well, banks operate from the idea that they want to maximize profit every single step of the way. If you prohibit them from screwing customers hard on issues A, B, and C it just calls attention to the fact that they didn't notice that issues X, Y, and Z were ripe for opportunities to plunder us that weren't being exploited.

So, sure, regulations caused banks to find new ways to screw people.

But what surprises me isn't that, it's that the response would be "Welp, what will be will be, banks will always screw us, we shouldn't even try to address the issue, we should either put up with it or buy gold coins and put them under our mattresses!"
 

krae_man

Member
Stumpokapow said:
*shrugs* Either setup direct deposit and get your fee waived or use something like PC Financial or ING or one of the other headless banks and don't pay fees to begin with.

I need to get around to doing this. about 5 years ago when my Student account expired I looked at switching because my $3/month in fees jumped to $10/month. I went to PC but they wouldn't let me open an account without any dumb conditions because I didn't have any photo ID. It's really annoying that this society still looks at you funny if you don't have a drivers license. I have a passport now so I should look into it again.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
krae_man said:
I need to get around to doing this. about 5 years ago when my Student account expired I looked at switching because my $3/month in fees jumped to $10/month. I went to PC but they wouldn't let me open an account without any dumb conditions because I didn't have any photo ID. It's really annoying that this society still looks at you funny if you don't have a drivers license. I have a passport now so I should look into it again.

I just had an account jiggered around (closed a joint savings account, opened a joint chequing account) and they wanted to run a credit check. I said they could run whatever the legal minimum was because I wasn't applying for a credit product and I didn't need overdraft or whatever so there's really no reason for me to have a credit check done at all. Insanity.
 
turnbuckle said:
So long as your bank doesn't have inactive fees or anything else as described in the OP it really is a great arrangement.

Yeah that's the problem, finding a bank that doesn't have those sorts of fees. I think I'd be OK with keeping a few bucks in there though, so maybe that will give me more options.
 

turnbuckle

Member
hey hey hey if anyone is going to go the ING route let someone refer you :lol
$10 for the person referring, $25 for the person starting the account.


NintendoGal said:
Yeah that's the problem, finding a bank that doesn't have those sorts of fees. I think I'd be OK with keeping a few bucks in there though, so maybe that will give me more options.

It's been mentioned many times in here and elsewhere, but you really should look into local credit unions. I've used a couple through the years and all of them have been great. Really great.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
bank at a local bank or credit union, they value people more. I can't believe that people prefer the huge banks manipulating when your transactions post to get more fees out of you than just a straight annual fee. I'd much rather someone be up front about what they are going to charge me vs them gaming their own system to exploit the shit out of me.
 
the thing with credit unions tho...how do you get cash out atms without racking up the $2+ fee or whatever each time?

at the end of the day, you may as well take the $6 fee chase (or your respective bank) levies and get the convenience of having multiple atms around you can access.
 
This is why I stick to the smaller, local banks. They don't take stupid risks and tend to not fuck you in the ass with new or higher fees. Sorry guys that sucks for you.
 

krae_man

Member
Stumpokapow said:
I just had an account jiggered around (closed a joint savings account, opened a joint chequing account) and they wanted to run a credit check. I said they could run whatever the legal minimum was because I wasn't applying for a credit product and I didn't need overdraft or whatever so there's really no reason for me to have a credit check done at all. Insanity.

I remember specificly asking them why they required government issued photo ID when TD did not and they told me it was because they are not Brick and Mortar. I asked them how that matters and they had no answer for me:lol
 

turnbuckle

Member
Barkley's Justice said:
the thing with credit unions tho...how do you get cash out atms without racking up the $2+ fee or whatever each time?

at the end of the day, you may as well take the $6 fee chase (or your respective bank) levies and get the convenience of having multiple atms around you can access.

ATMs may be a legitimate concern for some, especially anyone without access to decent credit cards. If the convenience is worth $6 then pay the $6. Even without a credit card, having a debit card + keeping a small sum of "just in case cash" when the debit card can't be used should be enough to not have to make multiple atm visits.
 
turnbuckle said:
hey hey hey if anyone is going to go the ING route let someone refer you :lol
$10 for the person referring, $25 for the person starting the account.




It's been mentioned many times in here and elsewhere, but you really should look into local credit unions. I've used a couple through the years and all of them have been great. Really great.

I've used a CU before and we didn't care for them. The fact he had to travel 40 minutes just to speak with someone about our money and/or access it didn't help matters.

Anyone have any thoughts on BECU?
 
Tarazet said:
The rename from GMAC has done them wonders.

to be fair, it's way more than a renaming... GMAC was borderline predatory, where Ally really is customer-centric.

Also, they are currently working on a system that lets you deposit checks by taking a picture (I think PayPal and Chase currently do this?) This will fix my only annoyance with having an online-only bank (currently, in the rare case where I have to deposit a check, I have to first deposit it to a local bank and then transfer).
 

JGS

Banned
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
Except it was hurting people who were taking care of their finances. Did you purposefully not read the beginning of my post? If all it is is the default then who cares since they can still charge it by your logic?
I read the beginning of your post and I guess you ignored my answer. You were always allowed to taylor your account. If you were not allowed to, there were plenty of competitors that allowed you to opt-out at request.

How on earth did it hurt people taking care of their finances? That generally means they never used it or used it rarely enough to not benefit the bank.

The bulk of our overdraft revenue was from maybe 20% of our customer base. The rest were clueless they even had it. Only once in a blue moon (if ever) did the have a fee for a debit card transaction that went through or a check that was paid rather than bounced. Guess what? We often refunded it since it was a rare occurence.
 

Phobophile

A scientist and gentleman in the manner of Batman.
Until there's another bank that's as ubiquitous as a Walgreens in Chicago as Chase is, I'm not switching. I have 2 direct deposits monthly and easily use my debit card at least a dozen times a month.
 

X26

Banned
inactivity fees? what the fuck

I sometimes don't use my CC for months, fuck that shit I'd cancel right away
 

dionysus

Yaldog
So um, what obligation do banks have to offer people free stuff? As a part owner of a bank I can guarantee that checking accounts and debit cards, especially for smaller banks, are a losing proposition for the bank no matter what fees we charge. Checking accounts are mostly a customer loyalty sales pitch for loans and stuff. People forget that free checking is largely a development of the last 30 years.

The way the old system was set up was that responsible customers basically got everything for free, and irresponsible customers got hit with fees. Now the system is going to be more "egalitarian." Everyone pays the same no matter the cost to maintain their individual account.

Minimum balances to avoid fees actually make a lot of sense. If you run a low balance on a checking account and have no loans with the bank, they are losing money on you every time you use your account and even more money every time you require the services of a teller or account representative. Moreover, there are numerous regulations regarding financial privacy, data retention, etc. that have very large costs to comply with. Weeks of mandatory training, data storage, etc. So I can charge you $15 a month to cover their costs, or I can require you to maintain $1500 in your account so I can turn around and loan that money to someone else and make money off your checking account.

If you have a loan or mortgage at a bank, I highly recommend you do all of your banking there. This will make you a preferred customer and most banks will wave all recurring fees for such customers. Personally, I have a mortgage with Wells Fargo and such I get free checking and debit, no limit # of withdrawal savings accounts, and free securities trading through their brokerage.


It might have changed in the 10 years since I actively worked at a bank, but bounced checks, whether the bank pays them or just returns them, carried huge costs to all the banks. Bank 1 that had the depositors of the bad check's account would have to manually reduce the amount of the deposit and physically return the check to the depositor as Insufficient Funds. The Federal Reserve would have to serve as the clearinghouse from the transfer of the NSF check from bank 2 to bank 1. Bank 2 would have to pull the check out of their pile and mark it NSF, the send it back the the Fed.

The majority of bank employees are devoted to maintenance of checking accounts. In my bank, we had 5 tellers, 4 bookkeepers, 2 loan officers, and 4 misc employees doing stuff like compliance, credit checks, and advanced customer service. Without checking accounts you could easily have gotten away with 2 tellers, 1 bookkeeper, and the rest unchanged.

So again, why should banks take on all these costs for free when most of their debit/checking customers will not provide them with any revenue?
 

JGS

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
Well, banks operate from the idea that they want to maximize profit every single step of the way. If you prohibit them from screwing customers hard on issues A, B, and C it just calls attention to the fact that they didn't notice that issues X, Y, and Z were ripe for opportunities to plunder us that weren't being exploited.

So, sure, regulations caused banks to find new ways to screw people.

But what surprises me isn't that, it's that the response would be "Welp, what will be will be, banks will always screw us, we shouldn't even try to address the issue, we should either put up with it or buy gold coins and put them under our mattresses!"
Of course, the issue should be addressed, but not in a way that causes them to look at X, Y, & Z. When the regulation went down, we as greedy bankers knew before they were implemented how to gain additional revenue. It was that easy and rocket scientists aren't running the banks. These were no-brainer moves.

A smarter regulation would have been to:

- Treat fees like loans. They just did this with payday loan places, it would work just as well with banks. As a greedy banker, I'm against that since it is a fee, but if the consumer is what matters...

- Require a disclosure at POS explaining a fee would be imposed if continued. This is a win win since the bank does not need to sympathize with the customer at all and the customer can pick and choose what they can do. It's as easy to implement as the ATM warnings of ATM fees and checking on wher someone opted in or out.

- Mandate a basic fee free account that gets you no frills but no monthly fees either. If banks are already offering this, then not sure what the fuss is about. It's funny that they all had this before regulation, but it seems like they've diminished.

- Implement a credit before debit policy. This one is dangerous because it removes real time transactions and it also hinders the bank collecting fees income, but again if it's about protecting the consumer...

This was over 5 minutes of thinking. Just imagine what the top line financial geniuses of the government could think up in a few days. Oh wait, they did that already.
 
So um, what obligation do banks have to offer people free stuff?

well they're making (lots of) money on our deposits while they hold them, so it seems in their best interest to incentivize that practice.

I should state that I have no problem with account minimums to avoid fees, since obviously they aren't making enough to offset admin fees when people keep low balances in their accounts.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
FlashFlooder said:
well they're making (lots of) money on our deposits while they hold them, so it seems in their best interest to incentivize that practice.

And that is why you don't see fees on savings and CDs. Your average checking account user only costs the bank money. Hence why you might see more minimum balance requirements.

Edit. Saw your edit. We agree.
 

JGS

Banned
FlashFlooder said:
well they're making (lots of) money on our deposits while they hold them, so it seems in their best interest to incentivize that practice.
Sort of true, but we are actually losing money on deposits which is why CD rates are in the toilet. Banks are making money off of two primary sources:

1. Loans & credit cards which have not been adjusted for the record breaking low rates banks are borrowing money for. The rates are at best the same as a few years ago and usually higher.

2. Checking Accounts. They're investing checking account money in a similar way as savings accounts, but don't have to pay interest back. Plus they get the various fee income.

Most banks are making gobs of money off of those two things.

It does costs the bank money for deadbeat accounts but tabulating every little fee they charge off the checking against the administrative/collection process for those accounts is pretty sizeable.
 

Shiggie

Member
Any new yorker have an Apple Bank account?
logo.png
 

Zoe

Member
krae_man said:
It's really annoying that this society still looks at you funny if you don't have a drivers license.

If you're a non-student adult without a driver's license, you need a government-issued photo ID card in able to legally work.
 

avatar299

Banned
Hwasong said:
A Chase checking account actually requires at least one direct deposit of $500 OR five debit card uses per month to avoid fees, according to their website.
5 debit card uses per month? Lol oh how will we survive?
 

Brannon

Member
I love my credit union, and can only laugh at the ridiculous bullshit that most big banks pull out of their asses.
 

CFMOORE!

Member
which credit unions are some of you guys using? When I was a kid, I had Hughes Aircraft which turned into Kinecta which was closed because I didn't know they had a fee and I had like $20 in my account and the monthly service fee ended up running that account to $0 and they closed it.

I recently opened up an account with First Entertainment, which as I mentioned in an earlier post, was simply to get a car insurance discount
 

Cubsfan23

Banned
There's no way this will last. At least one bank will not do this, and then the other banks will panic when they see all the lost customers
 
turnbuckle said:
I've used my debit card 5 times or less in a year :lol

Same here. I like using my Amazon credit card to get rewards and then just pay off the balance every month.

Speaking of ING, I really got to get in on that. But I'm waiting for those referral bonuses that they do from time to time.
 

Zhengi

Member
Meh, I have direct deposit, so no worries from me. I also prefer using credit cards for the rewards. I've never used my debit card.
 

Pctx

Banned
Credit Union or bust. No one should be using these pacified, bailed out, has been companies ever again.
 
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