-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
WTF: Renting games is forbidden in Belgium starting december 1st
- Thread starter Tieno
- Start date
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
Opportunity for Belgian people to buy the rental games on the cheap?
Goldrusher
Member
Was it that much ?Tieno said:
Then my suggestion of "buy, play, sell" really is a good alternative. Buy for 60, play it a week (or two), sell for 50.
It's that simple.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Danielsan said:
How is it a lame ass argument? The company that rents out the books has no real permission to do so, they are making money of the back of the authors. It's practically the same as one person buying a copy in stores uploading a torrent and letting thousands of others download it, or better yet one person buying the book in store, transcribing a bunch of bootlegs of it and selling them for his own gain. In both situations the author and publisher only see money from the initial purchase.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
I would gladly pass up renting games to live in an area where 99% of all of the best beers in the world are made. 
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
Not a good idea for obscure titles, because most people don't buy the obscure titles (for example god hand) at full price, they first like to rent it and then judge it if they want to buy it.
Steppenwolf
Member
You can calculate that with 6 euro for 3 days the copy must be rent 10 times for the provider that the purchase breaks even. Make it 20 so he can pay his staff, bills and make some profits. If from the 20 people who rent the game would only two buy it if there were no alternatives this makes one more sell for the developer. Now tell me again that rentals don't harm the developers.
Resellers like gamestop are the same kind of parasites as long no deal exists that lets the developers profit. This should be banned too. Nothing wrong with private to private second hand sells, thats understandable from my personal point of view. But whenever a company is involved that makes profit with the stuff i have spent countless hours of work in and i see no part of that cash it makes me rage and i have a problem to see a difference between them and pirates.
Resellers like gamestop are the same kind of parasites as long no deal exists that lets the developers profit. This should be banned too. Nothing wrong with private to private second hand sells, thats understandable from my personal point of view. But whenever a company is involved that makes profit with the stuff i have spent countless hours of work in and i see no part of that cash it makes me rage and i have a problem to see a difference between them and pirates.
Goldrusher
Member
That's nonsense. You can't forbid that.Kingsora said:Well in belgium they are also already considering to forbid the buy, play, sell alternative
Steppenwolf
Member
eznark said:
Because you still want to play games worth playing in ten years. Its simple as that. Look what happend to the Amiga developer scene in the 1990's. EA just fired 600 people. games dont develop themselfes. The people behind them have to feed familys too. From the gamer perspective its very short sighted to safe a couple of bucks on a used Gamestop copy instead of buying a new game.
Steppenwolf said:
And my family will always come first. If a company can't make their business model work in the environment in which they choose to do business that's not a problem for me to concern myself with.
If developers start aggressively (and successfully) lobbying lawmakers to inhibit consumer choice I will most certainly be taking my entertainment dollars elsewhere.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Steppenwolf said:
yadda yadda libraries used book stores used cd/record stores yadda yadda
PetriP-TNT
Member
I haven't rented a game since SNES days, the option isn't really available here. The biggest kiosk-chain offered the option for PS2 games for some time but it really didn't catch any wind.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Belgium you say? Cue the Van Damme GIFs!
Raist said:
It's not true renting, but Okajeux.com offers something similar.
You pay a monthly fee to "buy" games and have the possibility to return them any time.
It's like buying a game and selling it at the same price.
If you check the bills, you'll see that you really pay for the games you chose but you get a refund by returning them.
That's why they could avoid any problem with publishers and the law IMO.
Well I'm glad to hear you also buy games. I'm not against renting as a concept but I'm strongly against the current from of video game renting. The developers/publishers need to set up licensing deals so that they receive their share.eznark said:
Literature thrives because a book doesn't have a $20-40 million dollar development budget.
Steppenwolf
Member
Stumpokapow said:
You can't seriously compare a book written on a couple thousand dollar budget with a game that was developed on a multi million dollar budget and a team the size of 100-200 people. The only thing you can compare this with is the movie industry. And in the movie industry you always have a period where it only can be seen in cinemas where your money always reaches the people behind it. And after that comes DVD sales etc.
eznark said:
Fine thats your decission. Personaly i dont give a crap when i see nothing from your money anyways. I make games for a living. If i can manage to entertain the customers too it makes me even more happy. But i dont work to entertain people without getting paid for it.
Danielsan said:
That's the point. It isn't up to society to make your business profitable. It's up to you to create a business model that can operate efficiently given the environment.
I like that people actually think it's an either/or situation. I'm guessing that individuals buying and renting habits are positively correlated.
Steppenwolf
Member
eznark said:
Of course its up to society to create a environment that is good for buisnesses. If you think otherwise you must be completely blind towards politics and economy. You could aswell get rid of copyrights and taxes in your little dream world.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Steppenwolf said:
yeah there are no multi-million dollar books or albums. those don't exist. :lol
also, does this mean that you're fine with indie and low budget titles being rented and not high budget titles? that the metric for determining the ethics of rentals is whether or not the developer was stupid enough to make a titles whose costs they couldn't possibly recoup?
that'd be the most awesome corporate welfare ever.
Steppenwolf said:
errr, corporations are lobbying to reduce and get rid of taxes in the same dream world that they're trying to gain permanent ownership over property.
cry me a river, reselling and renting is a fundamental part of capitalism since the beginning, don't shield objections to this in the rhetoric of an effective market... and yes this basically applies to whacky euro-capitalism as well
wah wah libraries are ruining books
Steppenwolf said:
Putting politics aside, I find it difficult to believe you'd find a lot of people who think it is the role of government to harm consumers and one industry while propping up another. Obviously I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but the fact that it does doesn't mean it should.
I said this awhile back about second-hand game shops. It applies to game rentals as well:
If developers want to stop reseller's from taking their sales then there is a really "simple" way to do it: make a game that people want to keep.
While there are some people who resell EVERY game/movie/cd they buy to help fund their next purchase, I would imagine that most people who habitually resell games have at least a few games that they didn't trade back for whatever reason. Maybe it was the compelling multi-player. Maybe it was an interesting story that hooked the player and made them want to experience it again and again. Maybe it was just flat out fun. Whatever that reason may be, the player kept the game.
The onus should be on the developers to produce a superior product that players want to come back to.
If developers want to stop reseller's from taking their sales then there is a really "simple" way to do it: make a game that people want to keep.
While there are some people who resell EVERY game/movie/cd they buy to help fund their next purchase, I would imagine that most people who habitually resell games have at least a few games that they didn't trade back for whatever reason. Maybe it was the compelling multi-player. Maybe it was an interesting story that hooked the player and made them want to experience it again and again. Maybe it was just flat out fun. Whatever that reason may be, the player kept the game.
The onus should be on the developers to produce a superior product that players want to come back to.
Steppenwolf
Member
eznark said:
I said it before. This mentality of saving a couple of bucks is short sighted thinking. The customers will get harmed in the long run by lower quality video games and a smaller amount of releases. Devs get harmed by loosing jobs, studios closing or getting out buyed, projects getting canned etc. As said before just take the downward spiral of the Amiga developer scene as an example of what happend when every gamer was an cheap ass unwilling to pay for their gaming experience.
And btw i would hardly call people who rent games or buy used copys the customers of the video game industry when the video game industry isnt on the receiving end of the money stream.
FoxhoundNL
Member
So they didn't have any games for rent either?neorej said:
PS2 launched in 2000 , j/k.
, j/k.Steppenwolf said:
Like I said, the people who rent games more than likely also buy many games. They are gamers, and they are customers. It's short sighted of the developers to cut off a means by which consumers can experience their product, thus eliminating potential future sales.
Make games worth buying and keeping. That's the solution.
But you're right, the Amiga collapse doomed video games. The industry has just never recovered.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Steppenwolf said:
if you're in favour of banning things that lead to the failure of game companies, why not ban ludicrously over-the-top next gen budgets? you know, the thing actually causing companies to go under?
if you really care about quality of life for devs, why not vote for political candidates who will do more to raise labour standards, stronger unemployment insurance / social safety nets, tax credits for high-tech industries, and buy games exclusively from companies with good QOL records (ie no buying Japanese games or EA games)? because all of those things ACTUALLY help QOL in the industry, whereas fucking over your fellow gamers doesn't.
Steppenwolf said:
hi i bought somewhere between 125 games and 150 games this year. how many did you buy? i'm less of a consumer than you? :lol
you also didn't answer my point--if the difference between loaning books or music versus loaning games is the budget of the product being loaned, would you be in favour of allowing loans/rentals for low budget games and banning loans/rentals for harry potter or chinese democracy?
Steppenwolf said:
What's wrong with this? If you're not producing a product compelling enough to have people shell out their own hard-earned money, then why do you deserve to stay in business? What makes the game industry that much different from any other industry?
Do you really think that people who exclusively rent games are going to all of a sudden start buying games left and right if you ban rentals? Or is it more likely that they just won't enter the market at all?
What a silly, silly suggestion. Preposterous, I say.
Vaandaviii
Member
In spain there are special fees and versions only for movie rentals. Books and videogames are free of that rule, i think.
Psychotext
Member
Belgium, man. Belgium!
Steppenwolf
Member
Now its getting ridiculous. Stumpokapow your point is on the same level as saying "I can call people n****** because i have a lot of black friends". Game Developers are not a single entity. There are different persons behind each project. If you rent or pirate 50% of your games you still harm the people behind these no matter how many games you buy otherwise.
Steppenwolf
Member
mre said:
I cant believe that i read something like this in a video game forum. Suddenly double standarts when the money in the own pocket is discussed? Dude there is so much whining every time EA buys or closes a good studio. What about studios like Thalion, probably the best game studio on Amiga. Didnt sell enough copies due to piracy, had to close doors. Dont tell me you actualy believe that only shitty studios go under.
Ever thought about that games could be better if the budget pressure wasnt so high? If more sold copies would be sure games could be delayed for better quality. Often not possible.
I find it mind boggling that people in this thread demand quality for their money but dont understand where quality comes from.
Steppenwolf said:
Double standards? I think the same applies to any industry: if a company cannot compete with their competitors then they go out of business. Again, why should game development by different from other industries? Sometimes studies with talented people making the games are still run by other people who make bad decisions that result in the company going under. I feel for the employees of that studio (as I do for the employees of any company that goes under. Being fired or let go from a job is a horrible feeling), but the blame should not be shifted to the consumers when that happens. There will, almost always, be internal reasons behind that company's failure.
You're not going to win any sympathy from me on the budget pressure front. Either budget your game in such a manner that you can recoup your investment with lower sales that can withstand the rental/resell market, or, if you choose to go all out with your budget, create a game that people will want to actually keep because that's the only way you're going to beat the resellers.
Some crazy ass people in this thread. I hope that you guys who are advocating this shit don't lend your games to friends or relatives and when there's a multiplayer session at your houses you make sure everyone bought a copy of the game, otherwise it's piracy and babies will die of hunger.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
you said game rentals will hurt or kill the industry.
we pointed out this isn't true for books or music and it won't be true here.
you said the difference is the budget, because books and music are low budget and games are high budget.
we pointed out that this isn't true, and that this line of thinking does not lead to banning game rentals, it leads to banning rentals by budget.
... you ignored this argument twice.
... you also ignored the fact that government should not punish one industry to reward another
... you also ignored the fact that right of resale / first sale doctrine is pretty much a fundamental of market capitalism.
hahahaahah yeah that's a good one
we pointed out this isn't true for books or music and it won't be true here.
you said the difference is the budget, because books and music are low budget and games are high budget.
we pointed out that this isn't true, and that this line of thinking does not lead to banning game rentals, it leads to banning rentals by budget.
... you ignored this argument twice.
... you also ignored the fact that government should not punish one industry to reward another
... you also ignored the fact that right of resale / first sale doctrine is pretty much a fundamental of market capitalism.
Steppenwolf said:
hahahaahah yeah that's a good one