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[travisbickle]

But that doesn't seem to be stopping developers from making games and switching from PS3 exclusives to multi-platform now does it?

perhaps......the 360 hardware is designed so the developer doesn't NEED the HDD?

And yet Halo 3 is coming out on a system with no mandated HDD. The hits just keep on coming.

You're trying too hard.

 

[FrankT]

Barnolde...where did MS ever say that the move to 65nm was a "non-issue".

You're acting as if they aren't going to make that move in the future.

It's called reaching for straws.

 

[FrankT]

Pre-orders now up at Circuit City, but April 29th, surely that isn't their launch date;

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Microsoft-Xbox-360-Elite-High-Definition-Gaming-and-Entertainment-System-882224390118/sem/rpsm/oid/177538/catOid/-16483/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

 

[StingerNLG]

yeah. He should just learn to ignore the trolls altogether.

I'm standing right here.

Yeah, I agree though. It seems to be like talking to a brick wall.

 

[GhaleonEB]

yeah. He should just learn to ignore the trolls altogether.

But seriously: is "you're trying too hard" the canned response to someone effectively defending their perspective? because I've seen that exact phrase pop up more than a couple of times lately.

You're trying too damn hard, m0dus.

 

[travisbickle]

yeah. He should just learn to ignore the trolls altogether.

But seriously: is "you're trying too hard" the canned response to someone effectively defending their perspective? because I've seen that exact phrase pop up more than a couple of times lately.

Points I highlighted by StingerNLG

Point 1 = A dig at Sonybots for "lost exclusives", might as well get that out the way.

Point 2 = Hard drives are proven to improve game load times, streaming abilities and other game functions, to say the 360 was "designed" not to "NEED" one is conjecture.

Point 3 = An unreleased game releasing on a system without a harddrive shall work on a system without a hard drive, might as well add that no 360 games need a blu ray disc.


It's conjecture at best, down right stupidity at worst, he's trying too hard.

 

[FirstInHell]

I've had that avatar that for months, but I guess it is time to change. At least 60, if not 80 would've been sufficient, 120GB as an HDD size is excellent for the 360. HDD size isn't the issue, I've had to repeat myself countless times over this thread replying to many different people, there's no use doing it again. Xbots will bend over and accept their fate, red rings will still be prevalent, life will go on, unless you're a 360. Why is functional hardware such a foreign concept, that's what I do not understand.



Pretty much. A couple games like Oblivion and DOA4 benefit from the HDD, but they can't be designed around it, because not every system has it. The example I keep bringing up is Halo, that couldn't have been done without a hard drive.



Ding ding ding, someone who gets it.



404: 65nm not found. Why MS considers this a non-issue is beyond me, but I feel sorry for that guy who's on his 11th 360. 65nm would certainly cut down on the shipping costs for 360 coffins as well.

HDD is justification for the high price, because the HDD is priced so high.

MS offered devs a choice, 512MB RAM or a standard HDD, Epic was one of the devs who knew that 512MB would be more beneficial, but why couldn't MS just do both?

Yeah, more than the PS2, way to aim high. I'm getting dizzy from all this spin. The PS2 got a hard drive years after it came out (the key was that it didn't launch with one and the precursor Sony system didn't bring HDDs to consoles), a couple games used it (FFXI like you mentioned, which requires it on the 360 too as well as taking up 1/3 of it's size) and it was mainly used for piracy. Why are you attacking Sony for fighting piracy? Would it be more beneficial to ignore it like MS has done with the 360? See arne, two can play this game and btw I like honey glazed crullers.

It is pretty obvious that no matter what Microsoft did, you would have an issue with it. Based on your avatar one of your bug gripes was the hard drive size. They address this and you move on to the 65nm issue.

You obviously think the 360 is a peice of junk. You obviously think Microsoft is making stupid decisions. I am wondering why you are bothering to type up elaborate responses to people regarding this issue. If the 360 is such a disaster why even expend any energy on it at all? You should move on and focus on a Wii and/or a PS3.

Furthermore, your posts are full of baiting comments with the same zingers about the 360 (coffins, Xbots....and so on). You are bringing nothing new to the dicussion because you have already made up your mind that Microsoft is screwing up and the hardware is a POS. Nothing anyone can say will convince you otherwise. Why do you feel the need to convince everyone here that your opinions and speculation are "right"?

I have no issue with you not liking the 360 or the direction MS is going in, but not everyone who does not share your view is wrong.

I think the hardware reliability is suspect and I wish Microsoft would at least address it, but in the end the 360 has the games I want to play. If this is "bending over" for them than so be it.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

I have never seen so many people mad about something they DON'T HAVE TO BUY....
but everyone bitched so much about HDMI and HDD space, and MS delivered.

oh well carry on with your rage

GRRRRR!

Huh? Are you on Earth? They lied and said the CURRENT system could output digital. They didn't deliver to the 10 million people who bought their "premium" system at full price and kept them afloat the first year when their systems were failing left and right and there was no software.

Cmon now.

 

[StingerNLG]

Wait what, did I say something wrong?

LOL, no. You were talking about me in the third person to someone else.

Point 1 = A dig at Sonybots for "lost exclusives", might as well get that out the way.

Nice to see you had a counterpoint to that though. I don't apparently have to try that hard to begin with.

Point 2 =Hard Drives are proven to improve game load times, streaming abilities and other game functions, to say the 360 was "designed" not to "NEED" one is conjecture.

Errrr,it's hardly conjecture. Please enlighten me with a developer quote that game "X" was not being released on the Xbox 360 due to it's lack of mandated hard drive.

Pssst, btw I never said hard drive couldn't improve load times.

Maybe you're right. I'm trying too hard. But perhaps because people aren't getting it?

Point 3 = An unreleased game releasing on a system without a harddrive shall work on a system without a hard drive, might as well add that no 360 games need a blu ray disc.

Here I don't even know what it is you're trying to say.

It's conjecture at best, down right stupidity at worst, he's trying too hard.

Sure thing. I'll refrain from responding to this last part because honestly, I'm nicer than that and not looking to get whacked in the head with the ban stick.

 

[artist]

Sony was criticized when they had one of the SKUs without HDMI. Now when Microsoft has walked into the same situation, the negative feedback is well warranted.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

I don't think it is much concern for people who currently own a 360 unless they recently bought it and can still return theres (by the way what is the time frame on that. haha) or if they really would like HDMI. I look at it as its great for people who are currently thinking of buying one. It is only 80 bucks more and you get HDMI and a whole 100 gigs more. I don't know. I don't think it is that big of a deal. I don't see why all the bad press. I guess people were just hoping for a price cut. Seems like people have been dying for a 360 price cut since it came out.

 

[alterego]

It is only 80 bucks more and you get HDMI and a whole 100 gigs more.

That's the thing. The value makes choosing the Premium over the Elite a tough decision.
For 80 bucks you get 100 gigs extra, HDMI port with included HDMI cable and a black finish.

The core pack was shunned because of the poor value compared to the Premium. If you've got $400 dollars to put on the table the Premium suddenly doesn't look very good value at all compared to the Elite.

This could be seen as effectively an $80 price increase if the Elite is seen to be the only "viable" version to buy without feeling ripped off.

We'll just have to see how the market reacts.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

future owners that need 120gb buy an elite. simple.


current owners. well, same issue if you bought yourself a PS3 and upgraded the HDD. the price is less, but you've paid $X additional.

How about the HDMI for current owners? Or was I asleep when MS said the CURRENT 360 could output digital.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

How about the HDMI for current owners? Or was I asleep when MS said the CURRENT 360 could output digital.

With the lack of 1080p support and push by MS i don't think that HDMI is that big a deal for 360 owners. If they drop a bomb like Halo is native 1080p (which i doubt they will do) then i could see owners being pissed.

 

[GhaleonEB]

With the lack of 1080p support and push by MS i don't think that HDMI is that big a deal for 360 owners. If they drop a bomb like Halo is native 1080p (which i doubt they will do) then i could see owners being pissed.

I realize this is a whole can of worms that's been done many times, but - I thought component cables could do 1080p signals for gaming without issue, just not HD-DVD (capped at 1080i over component). Why would HDMI make a difference in your example? Or am I still confused on this.

 

[soul creator]

That's the thing. The value makes choosing the Premium over the Elite a tough decision.
For 80 bucks you get 100 gigs extra, HDMI port with included HDMI cable and a black finish.

The core pack was shunned because of the poor value compared to the Premium. If you've got $400 dollars to put on the table the Premium suddenly doesn't look very good value at all compared to the Elite.

This could be seen as effectively an $80 price increase if the Elite is seen to be the only "viable" version to buy without feeling ripped off.

We'll just have to see how the market reacts.

it's not a "tough decision" if you don't have an HDMI capable TV, and are not interested in downloading a bunch of TV shows and movies.

If you are interested in those latter two aspects...now there's a model for you. If you aren't interested in those aspects...you buy a premium or a core, and save the $80-$180 for games or other accessories. *shrug*

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

Yes but the ability to upconvert DVDs comes to mind as well as support for the new DD and DTS. I really dont see how some think VGA looks better than HDMI.

So where is it for current owners?

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

I realize this is a whole can of worms that's been done many times, but - I thought component cables could do 1080p signals for gaming without issue, just not HD-DVD (capped at 1080i over component). Why would HDMI make a difference in your example? Or am I still confused on this.

hahaha i don't know either. maybe someone will come correct both of us. i just always assumed you needed HDMI. Thats the way people seem to talk about it and everyone puts a spin on it like HDMI is sooo much better that you need it.

 

[soul creator]

I realize this is a whole can of worms that's been done many times, but - I thought component cables could do 1080p signals for gaming without issue, just not HD-DVD (capped at 1080i over component). Why would HDMI make a difference in your example? Or am I still confused on this.

I believe that there are some TV's that may only do 1080p through HDMI inputs, no matter what the source.

 

[Treo360]

How about the HDMI for current owners? Or was I asleep when MS said the CURRENT 360 could output digital.

Microsoft prepping component to HDMI adapter?
>> From engadget.com:

Friendly tipster Evan M wasn't too stoked to see an Xbox 360 Elite headed for store shelves after he'd just purchased a Premium 360, especially considering the fact that his TV has a whole HDMI port twiddling its thumbs, just waiting to get its game on. After informing Microsoft of his displeasure through what we're sure was a politely worded email, Evan claims to have received a slightly encouraging response from a Microsoft support person, promising an upcoming HDMI to component adapter for the 'box to make his situation perhaps a bit more bearable. Unfortunately, the support person also mentioned that "we do not have information as of the moment if the cable will be sold separately,".

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

This still means they can't take full advantage of it like they could in the Xbox, resulting in a bit of lost scope in the game engine they're making. I'm not a dev so I can't say how much of an impact, but it's not the same as if the core never existed. Console programming already has enough limitations. I hope MS gained by adding one more.

Wasn't one of the MS' justifications for not having a standard HDD because Xbox 1 developers were not taking advantage of the harddrive in the first place?

 

[FrankT]

How about the HDMI for current owners? Or was I asleep when MS said the CURRENT 360 could output digital.

You most certinaly were asleep. This is what was actually said;

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will support HD component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD-ready TV on the market today. We’re poised to hit the sweet spot of the HD market at launch and as the market matures, and we will provide an HDMI for our customers when it makes sense. The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

That is a big difference in what your saying and what he says. One can interpret that many ways, but the bottom line is I never recall MS saying it had digital output on it. When anandtech did there initial hardware review of the 360 on launch, they said they found NO digital output on the board. So I'm not sure where you're going with that.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

GN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like the various other cables already available for the console? Is the current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it restricted to analog?

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

***Updated 9/28, 2:15 PM PST***

IGN: Can the X360 send out a digital signal now, or ever?

Microsoft Xbox 360 currently doesn't include a digital out connection for video. Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so When the Xbox 360 was being developed HDMI was nascent and with our current connections we support what the overwhelming majority of consumers have available to them. It's important to note that the market penetration of 1080p displays is in the single digits. Regardless, for those early adopters who have displays and projectors that support 1080p over VGA and component we have a solution and it is a free upgrade for them. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution in the face of consumer demand, but have no announcements regarding additional cables or connections.


Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p.

Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next question is whether Microsoft will hear it.I

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so" Implies the current system since there was no Elite then.

 

[pr0cs]

http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2611&p=2

Inside Microsoft's Xbox 360 - A Tour of the 360's Motherboard
Date: November 18th, 2005

Unfortunately in the first version of the Xbox 360, that AV cable port appears to be strictly analog. Microsoft has indicated that they may support HDMI at a later point in time, but that may require a new revision of the motherboard - assuming there is no digital video signal carried over the AV port. On the flip side, ATI has had a history of placing TMDS transmitters on their GPUs, so it may be possible that a digital video signal is present at this connector today, although if it were we don't understand why Microsoft wouldn't offer a DVI/HDMI cable option now.

Anyone who thought that somehow magically launch date 360s would get HDMI didn't do their homework.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

Again, nothing stated there would make you think you would need to buy a new system when the interviewer was asking about adding it to the current system so I don't want to hear about interpretation.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2611&p=2



Anyone who thought that somehow magically launch date 360s would get HDMI didn't do their homework.

Huh, now I need to read PC hardware sites to buy a console just in case the mfg lies about it?

How about we just admit they lied?

 

[soul creator]

Huh, now I need to read PC hardware sites to buy a console just in case the mfg lies about it?

How about we just admit they lied?

is there anything on the existing 360 packaging that says "HDMI supported!"

 

[Mrbob]

Interestingly, talk radio talking about this right now.

www.620wtmj.com

Talking about how expensive the Xbox 360 elite and PS3 are now.

 

[FrankT]

Again, nothing stated there would make you think you would need to buy a new system when the interviewer was asking about adding it to the current system so I don't want to hear about interpretation.

There is no interpretation to it, plain and simple. Anandtech said it wasn't on the board at launch, how the heck do think your just going to add digital on top that.

It ain't going to happen plain and simple. Don't try making up shit that ain't there in the first place.

 

[FrankT]

"Our platform is flexible enough to allow support of a digital connection in the future should we choose to do so" Implies the current system since there was no Elite then.

That doesn't imply jack shit. So I don't want to hear the interpretation crap either.

 

[Mmmkay]

You guys have similar usernames, I keep thinking it's just one schizophrenic arguing with himself.

 

[FirstInHell]

You guys have similar usernames, I keep thinking it's just one schizophrenic arguing with himself.

That's the gist of what this thread has boiled down to anyway.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

That doesn't imply jack shit. So I don't want to hear the interpretation crap either.

lol, it doesnt imply that they could add digital output? They just said they could!


I, and many others had no idea about anantech pulling it apart.

 

[Piper Az]

Does anyone know whether you can still use your 20GB HDD as a second HDD after transfering your content to a 120 GB HDD? If not, is the only option let it collect dust or sell it?

 

[soul creator]

Does anyone know whether you can still use your 20GB HDD as a second HDD after transfering your content to a 120 GB HDD? If not, is the only option let it collect dust or sell it?

Well I'd imagine it'd obviously be usable...since MS has always recommended you can sell it, that must mean another system will recognize it. It'll be blank though of course.

If you meant as like a "140GB" hard drive having it being used simultaneously...I doubt that, lol.

 

[Sean]

Does anyone know whether you can still use your 20GB HDD as a second HDD after transfering your content to a 120 GB HDD? If not, is the only option let it collect dust or sell it?

When transferring the contents it removes everything off the drive, but surely you can reformat it and start over from scratch. It'd have to continue working if you were to sell it anyways...

 

[Odysseus]

120gb for $180 is a bit rough. compare it to 20gb for $100, however, and the larger hdd is a steal. isn't it about time to drop the 20gb in price a bit? or replace it with a larger drive?

i was thinking about this earlier, and i still stand by my statements that this new elite sku devalues the premium and effectively raises the psychological price of the system. if they're deadset on releasing it, they should recalibrate the core and premium systems as well. personally, i think they should increase the value of the core by making it include everything the premium has, sans hard drive. wireless controller, hd a/v cables, etc. then i would increase the size of the hdd in the premium model so that the disparity was not so great versus the elite; 60 gb seems like a nice round number. so my three sku strategy would be

core - $299, no hdd
premium - $399, 60gb hdd
elite - $479, 120gb hdd

in that sense, the only difference among the models is simply the hard drive. i add value to the core and, further, the premium retains its value versus the more expensive elite sku.

come fall and the expected hardware revision, i would drop prices and move the 60gb model to $349 and the elite to $399 and maybe drop the core to $279. i would also bundle in a game like kameo. ideally, microsoft would move the premium sku to $299, but that's probably too steep a drop to expect, the way microsoft has operated so far. they've existed at this higher price for almost 17 months, they're just going to drop $100 all at once? doubtful. so, $50 drop for this year ($20 on core), and another $50 next spring. come summer 2008, i'd certainly want my prices to be $249/$299/$349. again, it has been almost 17 months and by next summer it will be well over two years. it's time to get this sucker closer to mass market.

but, first things first, i think microsoft should evaluate the value of the premium. i think the elite makes it look bad.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Oh, I didn't know the core didn't have a controller. So I take my statement about buying core + the 120gig if the 120 gig HDD cost was normal*. That's pretty jacked.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh, I didn't know the core didn't have a controller. So I take my statement about buying core + the 120gig if the 120 gig HDD cost was normal*. That's pretty jacked.

It has a controller. It's just a wired, as opposed to a wireless, one.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Wireless controller is a luxury anyway. I find myself acting if my controllers have a cord on them by mistake at times. Taking a while to forget after so long of having the cord attached to it since the beginning.

 

[Odysseus]

Wireless controller is a luxury anyway. I find myself acting if my controllers have a cord on them by mistake at times. Taking a while to forget after so long of having the cord attached to it since the beginning.

i'd have the wireless in the core to see if i can't increase the appeal of it in the western markets. microsoft japan is still free to do whatever they can to keep the thing somewhat afloat over there.

i like the way i've laid out the skus much better than the way microsoft has currently pitched them (who knows if they have other plans in store that will be revealed the closer we get to the elite's street date). if you're going to execute an ipod strategy, at least do it right.

pardon me while i wait patiently for the 360 nano.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

I have to make it clear, I dont have any issues with a new SKU, my issue is with the BS regarding digital output on the current console. If they just added a bigger HD, I wouldnt care because I could buy a bigger one.

The HDMI thing is what makes me nuts because there is no way to do that on the current box and they implied (heavily) that there would be an answer for that.

They pushed all this HD stuff and introduced a HD DVD and everyone was screaming about the lack of HDMI. Obviously, critics were right because they DID have to introduce it.

The only other scenario where I wouldn't be so pissed is when IGN asked them about HDMI they just said its not possible. Then anyone who purchased one after that could not complain.

You can even see in the IGN article that IGN felt this "news" about digital playback being possible appeased them somewhat at the time. Note, they took the MS response as an add on to the current system.

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html

 

[Mmmkay]

So that Microsoft dude (who's blog was banned because he wouldn't shut up about Sony) has passed comment on the whole HDMI on non-Elite models issue:

http://tinyurl.com/35gfo5

Re: "Will there be an HDMI cable released for us early adopters? If not that kinda sucks. Also, can one buy the new bigger HD?"

Unfortunately there will not be an HDMI adapter released for the original 360. The HDMI spec is basically a 2-way street and requires the specific port on both sides to be enabled. This is why we had to change the box.

 

[FrankT]

Well I got the lowdown at my local EB games today. They predicted getting 5-10. They said they already had about that many people asking about them, maybe more. It looks like I'll be camping out that morning. One of the guys said one guy offered him a hundred bucks to camp out for him the entire night to buy him one, heh. It was kind of funny though, the two guys started a conversation up as to why I was upgrading. One of the guys told me, "well I'm just getting the new hard-drive and a controller," by the time I left, he said he was getting the Elite as well. I told him I thought about just getting the HDD as well, but if you are going to drop 200 for that, plus he was getting a new controller so another 50 basically, might as well trade in your current gear and spend about the same maybe slightly more, he agreed. For HDMI, 120gig HDD, up-conversion over HDMI, and a new warranty, for certain I'm upgrading. I have a launch 360, so the warranty itself will be worth its weight in gold.

Why April 29th though MS? Sunday seems like a weird day for a launch on a new SKU.

 

[Ryudo]

The elite is basically microsofts way of saying, " hey ! we are stupid morons who think its time to give away any market lead we had over our competitors by further dividing our market".

Pretty disapointing, especially when they could be focusing on games or supporting other hardware *cough* logitech wheels.