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[LocoMrPollock]

Well first, let's define "popular". Was it popular compared to other sixteen bit games of the era? Obviously not. Was it popular vs other JRPGs of the era? Not when compared to FF3/6 and Chrono Trigger and the like. Was it popular among Sega CD owners? Yes, but provided you're willing to further pare that down to Sega CD owners who happen to love JRPGs. Was it popular for a WD game? Sure.

Furthermore, I contend Lunar is beloved in spite of it's original translation, not due to it. The translation as produced by WD held no respect at all for the source material-- it's only because the core story and themes and characters were so strong that the whole thing didn't collapse into a mess of pop culture references.

It's only through the works of companies such as X-Seed and Atlus and others that we now see exactly how awful WD's early efforts were. We now know you don't need to drown a translation in forced "humor" to keep American's interest. WD's Lunar translation wasn't just insulting to the original material, it was insulting to American gamers, whom Vic walked in assuming we were too dumb and/or apathetic to "get" hardcore traditional JRPGs.

Turd sandwich.

 

[Freyjadour]

And people are missing the fact that they ARE using the WD script as a base, just with edits. They are just missing the voice actors and songs as far as source material goes.

I think more than a few were just arguing over people wanting a more accurate translation of a mediocre boy becomes hero saves world plot.

 

[Mejilan]

And people are missing the fact that they ARE using the WD script as a base, just with edits.

This remains to be seen. They openly admitted to dropping WD's script in one interview. Then, almost as a response to the small shitstorm those comments drew from this message board and others, a bit of backpedaling occurred which reeked of damage control. Time will tell. I believe this game will turn out to be a competent effort, unlike Lunar Legends and Lunar DS. But from what I've read and played so far, it won't supplant the PSOne game in my book.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

This remains to be seen. They openly admitted to dropping WD's script in one interview. Then, almost as a response to the small shitstorm those comments drew from this message board and others, a bit of backpedaling occurred which reeked of damage control. Time will tell. I believe this game will turn out to be a competent effort, unlike Lunar Legends and Lunar DS. But from what I've read and played so far, it won't supplant the PSOne game in my book.

Well, at least as far as the demo goes, it's definitely WD's script with some tweaking.

And to that dude that said Lunar was never popular? You'd have sufficient fingers to count if you tried to list RPG franchises that have higher selling installments in North America than Lunar:SSSC. Even if you were in a horrible jigsaw accident and were missing a few fingers.

 

[duckroll]

As I said, It's not my business. It wasn't my call, but I think that a bluff would've worked to that end better than sticking to your guns (for the one game at least). When Xseed rejected your "all" and chose "none", you should've begged them to at least take some.

Erm, you make it sound as if it is his responsibility to ensure that any version of Lunar is any good at all. It is not. It is the responsibility of whoever licenses a Lunar game to release a good version. I don't see why Vic has to beg for anything if he offers his help knowing that fans respect the original cast and localization, and is rejected. Once he is rejected it makes perfect sense to just walk away from the project. Why would he hang around and beg for anything. It's not a bluff, it's business.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Erm, you make it sound as if it is his responsibility to ensure that any version of Lunar is any good at all. It is not. It is the responsibility of whoever licenses a Lunar game to release a good version. I don't see why Vic has to beg for anything if he offers his help knowing that fans respect the original cast and localization, and is rejected. Once he is rejected it makes perfect sense to just walk away from the project. Why would he hang around and beg for anything. It's not a bluff, it's business.

If it's just business, why did he spend his time also convincing the original VAs not to participate?

 

[duckroll]

If it's just business, why did he spend his time also convincing the original VAs not to participate?

Did he convince them not to participate? Or did they all simply agree as a team that it would only be worthwhile doing it if the entire gang reunites? Many of the voices in the Lunar games are not regular voice actors who you see in the industry now, they probably have their own jobs and they might have been interested in a side gig if it reunites the entire cast.

How is this any different from certain actors and actresses agreeing only to do certain movies if a director or producing they trust or like is attached? In the creative industry, this is not uncommon. If the only real motivation they had for joining the cast would be if a) everyone does it together like the old days, b) Vic is managing it, then it is not surprising that they would just say "nah" when that deal fell through.

 

[vireland]

And to Mr. Ireland. Thanks for sticking up for yourself and your work ethic. Without your company, the modern gaming landscape would be a much duller one. Besides, you can't let these fourteen year old children get under your skin, they're just acting out because mommy and daddy didn't buy them a shiny firetruck for Christmas.

I appreciate the sentiment. My hope is and has always been for is for LUNAR to do well and grow its fans. It's kind of like wanting to see your kids grow up and do well. For the person that said I should have begged to have some of the original voice cast included - why? The point is not just to have some kind of ego credit in the game. The point was to assure the quality of the result and offer expertise and resources to that end. Say what you will about Working Designs, but no USA LUNAR has touched the success or profitability of the WD releases (and unlike our version of LUNAR, no LUNAR was ever #1 in Japan on release for that matter). I have a clue about interpreting that world, and that's what was offered.

And just to be clear - I completely think people are entitled to their opinions on the new actors, new lyrics, whatever. Love them, quote them, ringtone them if you like it. I just want to see the game's awareness and success expand again, and I personally don't think this isn't going to do the trick based on the demo.

I wish you good luck and success on your latest endeavor.

Thanks for the well wishes. With the Sunsoft/Telenet IP we're sorting through, there's lots to be done. Maybe Cosmic Fantasy can be revisited...

 

[vireland]

How odd it is that WD would choose to translate a mediocre, boring game.

Strange that you wouldn't know that was kind of our MO at Working Designs.

Game Informer once said something like we took the ugly mutts from the pound and made them into best in show. It was a great line. Many of the games I picked had challenges or problems with the Japanese version that we polished and polished to fix. It didn't always work, but more often that not it did.

 

[vireland]

It's only through the works of companies such as X-Seed and Atlus and others that we now see exactly how awful WD's early efforts were.

Oh, come ON. Atlus copied virtually everything we did in terms of marketing, deluxe packs, etc, right down to at one point copying verbatim parts of our website's cheekiness. Look at the time before WD for packed in full soundtracks, making of movies packed in, hardbound full color manuals, foil stamped deluxe packs, collectors editions - it wasn't there. NO ONE was doing it in consoles except for the odd Nintendo release like the Zelda gold cartridge or something. It was a full package - translation, packaging, advertising. Our watershed moment was the success of LUNAR:SSSC's deluxe pack. After that game hit #1, *everyone* jumped on the deluxe pack bandwagon that's still rolling today.

Feel free to hate, but get the history right.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Strange that you wouldn't know that was kind of our MO at Working Designs.

Game Informer once said something like we took the ugly mutts from the pound and made them into best in show. It was a great line. Many of the games I picked had challenges or problems with the Japanese version that we polished and polished to fix. It didn't always work, but more often that not it did.

Yup. Heck, you guys made Shining Wisdom worth playing (albeit barely). Miracle workers, the lot of you. Except whoever did that goofy AO translation.

Lunar certainly doesn't win any prizes for its gameplay. It's very, very standard stuff. The game shines through in the story and characters, which the localization is obviously a very big part of. Anyone who doubts what WD's translation did for the game should play the GBA version and consider it as if it were the first time you were consuming the story. With a poor or even average translation, Lunar comes off as little better than a bog-standard Tales game storywise.

Unfortunately, from the demo (omg Segata is judging just from the demo he shouldn't judge whether the game is worth buying on anything less than a copy he purchased from the store), it seems like XSEED's voice cast/direction is pretty standard (which isn't bad, just not exceptional), and while they were smart enough to work from WD's script, the changes they make show a severe lack of "feeling" the humour the original lines were written with. Frankly I think if they were going to start monkeying around with the WD script (y'know, aside from updating the pop culture references), they'd have been better off writing their own, so that their additions to the script wouldn't come off so "You tell 'em, Steve-Dave!"

 

[duckroll]

3 hit combo!

I would like to say that one of the titles I feel "didn't work out" was Vanguard Bandits. Epica Stella was just... not a good game... at all.

 

[ethelred]

Dragon Force wouldn't have been half the game it was without the hilarious Working Designs translation.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Dragon Force wouldn't have been half the game it was without the hilarious Working Designs translation.

Definitely agreed. Dragon Force is one of the best examples of a game being raised up by a great localization.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Yeah, the only WD release that I didn't care for was Vanguard Bandits. Everything else was pretty top notch. Also they were doing quality JRPG translations when everyone else was doing shit that was barely understandable.

 

[Nfinit]

Strange that you wouldn't know that was kind of our MO at Working Designs.

Game Informer once said something like we took the ugly mutts from the pound and made them into best in show. It was a great line. Many of the games I picked had challenges or problems with the Japanese version that we polished and polished to fix. It didn't always work, but more often that not it did.

So it's weird that you'd openly admit that the games you worked on sucked, (but I suppose this is the same level of professionalism that lead you to hold the X-Seed translation hostage), but let's run with this.

Your guys weren't developers. They were translators. On the rare occasions where your teams would delve into changing the way a game would actually play, it'd usually wind up for the worse. The Lunar games worked because they were fundamentally good games, and that credit belongs to Studio Alex and Game Arts. Not you.

 

[mjc]

I don't think it's too fair to judge the entire game's translation solely on the demo.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

3 hit combo!

I would like to say that one of the titles I feel "didn't work out" was Vanguard Bandits. Epica Stella was just... not a good game... at all.

I'll throw my hat into that ring for Silhouette Mirage, actually. I honestly didn't feel any of the changes were for the better (and this was BEFORE I played the Saturn version!) and it was made needlessly difficult. I like Lunar, I like Alundra and there are a number of WD releases I wish I had, but SM was just... argh. The few small enhancements are overshadowed by the crazy shit. :\

 

[Lindsay]

Ohhh I remembered one other thing I am disappointed with and thats that this isn't fully voiced going by the demo. Maybe I got spoiled by DQVIII or even more recently (as in last week) Phantasy Star: Portable being fully voiced well the story related stuff anyway, optional chatter wasn't but still. Here like in past versions of Lunar its just a line here a line there blah.

 

[vireland]

3 hit combo!

I would like to say that one of the titles I feel "didn't work out" was Vanguard Bandits. Epica Stella was just... not a good game... at all.

I would agree. It was a title done for three reasons: friendship with a really cool guy at Human, need for a title in that timeframe to keep Walmart happy, trying to work closer to Sandbox who were in with Human at the time. End result - probably one of the most pedestrian WD titles (but we had a LOT of fun with the decaying opening animation that changed as you finished the game).

 

[vireland]

So it's weird that you'd openly admit that the games you worked on sucked, (but I suppose this is the same level of professionalism that lead you to hold the X-Seed translation hostage), but let's run with this.

Your guys weren't developers. They were translators. On the rare occasions where your teams would delve into changing the way a game would actually play, it'd usually wind up for the worse. The Lunar games worked because they were fundamentally good games, and that credit belongs to Studio Alex and Game Arts. Not you.

You're being sarcastic or you need the help these guys can provide. Saying a game needs help in certain areas to meet its full potential is not the same as saying it "sucked".

Again, you show that you know very little of what we did because it wasn't a "rare occasion" that we reprogrammed a game to fix flaws or add features, it was almost EVERY GAME from SEGA CD forward.

Again, hate all you want, but get the history right.

 

[duckroll]

I'll throw my hat into that ring for Silhouette Mirage, actually. I honestly didn't feel any of the changes were for the better (and this was BEFORE I played the Saturn version!) and it was made needlessly difficult. I like Lunar, I like Alundra and there are a number of WD releases I wish I had, but SM was just... argh. The few small enhancements are overshadowed by the crazy shit. :\

Yes well, the only version of Silhouette Mirage I care for is the Saturn version. I don't even consider the PS1 versions when thinking of the game honestly.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I never finished Growlanser 3, I may need to go back to that.

 

[Nfinit]

Oh, come ON. Atlus copied virtually everything we did in terms of marketing, deluxe packs, etc, right down to at one point copying verbatim parts of our website's cheekiness. Look at the time before WD for packed in full soundtracks, making of movies packed in, hardbound full color manuals, foil stamped deluxe packs, collectors editions - it wasn't there. NO ONE was doing it in consoles except for the odd Nintendo release like the Zelda gold cartridge or something. It was a full package - translation, packaging, advertising. Our watershed moment was the success of LUNAR:SSSC's deluxe pack. After that game hit #1, *everyone* jumped on the deluxe pack bandwagon that's still rolling today.

Feel free to hate, but get the history right.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Atlus doing a better job of bringing games over to America than you ever did. You're really pissed that Atlus does deluxe packages? Really?

 

[duckroll]

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Atlus doing a better job of bringing games over to America than you ever did. You're really pissed that Atlus does deluxe packages? Really?

It doesn't sound like he's pissed. It sounds like he's saying what he's always been saying, that WD was first, and Atlus took that idea and found great success with it in their own way.

 

[Bog]

Vic, I don't think you'll get many people disagreeing with your statements on the past two Lunar releases, but did you ever actually play through them?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

we gots us a butthurtin' weeaboo in these parts so i thinks

 

[Kintaro]

And just to be clear - I completely think people are entitled to their opinions on the new actors, new lyrics, whatever. Love them, quote them, ringtone them if you like it. I just want to see the game's awareness and success expand again, and I personally don't think this isn't going to do the trick based on the demo.

No matter who brought over this game, the fact it is on the PSP in the US means it is doomed. =/

 

[Nfinit]

we gots us a butthurtin' weeaboo in these parts so i thinks

I see the level of professional discourse with Vic Ireland extends to his sycophants.

 

[Fox the Sly]

I played Lunar on PSX back in the day and I see nothing wrong with the demo or voices (they're different but not necessarily worse). I also saw nothing wrong with the writing based on the demo.

*shrug*

Edit: the slow fading between screens is annoying. Forgot that part. :lol

 

[ethelred]

No matter who brought over this game, the fact it is on the PSP in the US means it is doomed. =/

Nfinit is certain that Harmony of the Silver Star will sell over half a million copies, because the previous game managed to eke out minor success despite Working Designs' best attempts at hamstringing its quality and now the game is really getting its chance to shine with the translation that its fans wanted all along.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I see the level of professional discourse with Vic Ireland extends to his sycophants.

yup, definitely a weeaboo if'n i ever seen one. he be butthurtin' hard an' thrashin' and shit. hooeee boy, best get the good stuff out fer this one!

 

[Kintaro]

Nfinit is certain that Harmony of the Silver Star will sell over half a million copies, because the previous game managed to eke out minor success despite Working Designs' best attempts at hamstringing its quality and now the game is really getting its chance to shine with the translation that its fans wanted all along.

Well, lets just all let it go and just be happy it's coming back over at all. Whoever brings it out.

 

[mjc]

Well, lets just all let it go and just be happy it's coming back over at all. Whoever brings it out.

Pretty much. What's done is done, no use wasting time arguing about what could have been. I honestly hope that the official thread (when it's made) isn't bogged down by this kind of stuff.

 

[Tamanon]

Pretty much. What's done is done, no use wasting time arguing about what could have been. I honestly hope that the official thread (when it's made) isn't bogged down by this kind of stuff.

All the official thread will be is people bitching about changes in the script. The game itself is rather bland, so it's not like there's any secrets or battle strategies to discuss. I think the sad thing is that folks will realize that the old RPG style just doesn't hold up nowadays, not with so many games having deeper customization to the characters and side systems like crafting and the like.

 

[Freyjadour]

Ohhh I remembered one other thing I am disappointed with and thats that this isn't fully voiced going by the demo. Maybe I got spoiled by DQVIII or even more recently (as in last week) Phantasy Star: Portable being fully voiced well the story related stuff anyway, optional chatter wasn't but still. Here like in past versions of Lunar its just a line here a line there blah.

In this case I don't find myself really minding that as much :lol.

At least it isn't as bad as Sands of Destruction though, I will give it that.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

Thanks for the well wishes. With the Sunsoft/Telenet IP we're sorting through, there's lots to be done. Maybe Cosmic Fantasy can be revisited...

Don't break my heart...

I'm just really glad you didn't mention Exile, as I would've gone into some sort of delicious shock.

Speaking which, did you confirm whether or not you would be able to balance and/or tweak the titles? Just thinking about some of the games in Sunsoft's and Telenet's collective libraries makes me ache for Cadash like releases.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

At least when they announce a relate date for this game, it'll actually ship on that day.

 

[Kishgal]

At least when they announce a relate date for this game, it'll actually ship on that day.

Oh snapppp.

 

[ethelred]

At least when they announce a relate date for this game, it'll actually ship on that day.

Unless the license holder decides they're too poor to handle the release and gives the game to another publisher.

 

[Kishgal]

Unless the license holder decides they're too poor to handle the release and gives the game to another publisher.

I rescind my previous post and resubmit it here.

 

[Cheerilee]

Erm, you make it sound as if it is his responsibility to ensure that any version of Lunar is any good at all. It is not. It is the responsibility of whoever licenses a Lunar game to release a good version. I don't see why Vic has to beg for anything if he offers his help knowing that fans respect the original cast and localization, and is rejected. Once he is rejected it makes perfect sense to just walk away from the project. Why would he hang around and beg for anything. It's not a bluff, it's business.

I was under the impression (and still am) that Vic has a soft spot in his heart for the Lunar series, and wants it to succeed, beyond simple business logic.

Near as I can figure, Xseed wanted a translation that was closer to the original than the PSX games were. And at the same time, I think they wanted it to keep the overall feel of the PSX games. I think that Vic was the single person most capable of doing that for them (regardless of whether that's the right way to approach this game). I think they were stupid to turn down his offer, but after a career of loose translations, they might have doubted his ability to stay closer to the source material. Especially if he went and told them their entire approach was wrong.

Setting aside that first (or maybe second) mistake, I think the best way for Xseed to reach their goal was to have the original voice cast read the new lines. I would say that the entire voice cast combined is probably even more important than Vic's writing in maintaining the feel of the PSX games (no offense to Vic).

I think that Vic and his people were the best ones for the job that I think Xseed wanted. I think Vic knew that too, which was why he made this agreement that it be everybody or nobody. The intent is to push Xseed to do the right thing and take everyone, because they're all the right choices. That push failed. Xseed didn't want Vic. At that point, I don't see how maintaining this everybody-or-nobody pact does anything to put the right butts in the right seats. Seeing how Xseed accepted Jenny when she went over, I suspect that this pact was the only factor keeping most, if not all, of the original voice cast out of the right seats.

If Vic really wanted to see this game succeed, regardless of his own self-interest, then when Xseed turned him down he should've bargained. "If you don't want me, then at least take my people." Maybe beg was too strong a word for me to use. Maybe not. It depends on how much he loves Lunar. And as it stands, it kind of looks like he hurt the game out of spite, and is maybe a little mad at Jenny for not doing the same.

 

[vireland]

Don't break my heart...

I'm just really glad you didn't mention Exile, as I would've gone into some sort of delicious shock.

Speaking which, did you confirm whether or not you would be able to balance and/or tweak the titles? Just thinking about some of the games in Sunsoft's and Telenet's collective libraries makes me ache for Cadash like releases.

This is getting WAY off topic, and I was not looking to hijack this thread. Come over to the sunsoftgames.com forums and we can make some more relevant conversation about the Sunsoft/Telenet stuff.

 

[vireland]

Near as I can figure, Xseed wanted a translation that was closer to the original than the PSX games were. And at the same time, I think they wanted it to keep the overall feel of the PSX games.

This is an oxymoron of sorts. The "feel" and success of the PSX games was BECAUSE it wasn't closely translated, but rather the FEEL was interpreted. You can't have it both ways. The opening song is a great demonstration of this. The new one is literal to a fault and far less musical than the one I did. However, the *themes* are roughly the same in the two. Ditto the text. The new bits are pretty jarring because they are tone deaf to the rhythm of the way the characters spoke before, making it pretty obvious where the splices have happened.

But enough of this. There's endless possible conversation here and it's pretty repetitive now. The game's coming out the way they've done it, and I wish them well. I hope they put a buttload of money into marketing and promotion to make lots of new LUNAR fans with this. If that happens it can only benefit every jRPG player in the long run.

 

[Mistwalker]

On the rare occasions where your teams would delve into changing the way a game would actually play, it'd usually wind up for the worse.

The hell? I'm fine with whatever negative opinion you may have, but check your ignorance at the door next time you "contribute" to this thread.

Lowering the number of required button/pad inputs to perform commonly executed menu operations?
Drastically reducing load times?

These make a title worse in what distorted reality?

Removing Eternal Blue's "saving your game costs experience points" is debatable, but hardly game destroying--and unchanged was a mechanic that would very likely have annoyed a lot of gamers.

Then there's the fact that WD re-tooled virtually every title they worked on (not sure where you're pulling "rare occasions" from, but I can guess), and in many non-gameplay related areas as well (enhanced visuals, PS1 video playback, etc.).

As has been said: hate if you want, but do try to know what you're talking about.

 

[Ricker]

Just loved the demo,I played the SEGA CD version when it came out back then and I like the new look it has...looks awesome on the PSP,the voices where great and the combat was fun...yes Quark is voiced in the demo and besides his opening line,it was quite good...I wasn`t sure if i would get this,having beating the game a few times and I still have the PS2 edition(was it PS2 or PS1 lol,i`m at my parents place) but after the demo i`m definetly picking it up,it was perfect on the PSP.

Got to level 8 in the demo...anyone know what will happen when you save your clear data and you start the full game or are they keeping it a surprise till launch?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I don't think it's too fair to judge the entire game's translation solely on the demo.

It's a bit late to decide I don't want the game if I have to buy it to determine that.

 

[bengraven]

Oh, come ON. Atlus copied virtually everything we did in terms of marketing, deluxe packs, etc, right down to at one point copying verbatim parts of our website's cheekiness. Look at the time before WD for packed in full soundtracks, making of movies packed in, hardbound full color manuals, foil stamped deluxe packs, collectors editions - it wasn't there. NO ONE was doing it in consoles except for the odd Nintendo release like the Zelda gold cartridge or something. It was a full package - translation, packaging, advertising. Our watershed moment was the success of LUNAR:SSSC's deluxe pack. After that game hit #1, *everyone* jumped on the deluxe pack bandwagon that's still rolling today.

Feel free to hate, but get the history right.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

Sad to me that I've said this from day 1 and everyone scoffed at me. It takes the fucking innovator himself to call them out on this board before people will listen.

One of the reasons I'm glad I don't play JRPGs anymore.

 

[ethelred]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

Sad to me that I've said this from day 1 and everyone scoffed at me. It takes the fucking innovator himself to call them out on this board before people will listen.

One of the reasons I'm glad I don't play JRPGs anymore.

He's not "calling them out," and their inclusion of bonus materials and spruced up packaging is hardly a reason to stop playing RPGs -- if you have stopped playing RPGs because Atlus wants to give you a free soundtrack with Strange Journey or a free soundtrack and a free art book with Knights in the Nightmare or a free Jack Frost plushie with Kuzunoha Raidou 2, you're a fucking idiot.

All Vic is doing is saying that he laid the groundwork for that. That's accurate, and it's worth noting when someone is saying that Working Designs did a terrible job but Atlus is doing a great job. But it isn't "calling them out." It's great that Working Designs improved the standards of the industry in this particular niche segment of it, and it's great that those who came behind are following up on some of the better things his company introduced. Like, for a while I thought Sony had created a new industry standard when the PS2 made backwards compatibility to successful; that was a good thing when others picked up and implemented it as well.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I miss WD boxes... Maybe I'll set up my little standees and recreate SSSC from memory. For old time's sake.

Thanks for joining in the conversation vic, it's not too often we get devs really interested in posting.