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[Kain-Nosgoth]

Yesterday I saw a Gamespot video about the history of Persona and Persona 2: IS have Hitler in the game. I mean that was 18 years back.

I also remember when Sony delayed Little Big Planet becuase of Qur'n references and it was sadly and mostly the opposite reaction of this thread.

The point is this industry is an international business now. You can't put KKK reference and expect the company to approve. C'mon what did he think was gonna happen?! Ofcource it'll get removed and if the game got released with that that reference by mistake it'll have caused an even worse backlash for them.

Sorry if i perhaps miss your point, and you can correct me, but why talking about persona 2? It's absolutely not the same here... Hitler wasn't accidental, it was pretty much the point that it was him in the game!

The KKK was accidental and they were right to change it, this TOM guy was really dumb here, i don't understand why he took offense in that... it's taking the point to the extreme (and it's never clever to do that=

 

[Zelias]

This is such an odd thing to get hot and bothered over. Since it seems apparent that the original intent wasn't to actually reference a racist organisation, keeping it in just seems like tryhard edginess. Kinda sad.

 

[hemo memo]

Sorry if i perhaps miss your point, and you can correct me, but why talking about persona 2? It's absolutely not the same here... Hitler wasn't accidental, it was pretty much the point that it was him in the game!

The KKK was accidental and they were right to change it, this TOM guy was really dumb here, i don't understand why he took offense in that... it's taking the point to the extreme (and it's never clever to do that=

No need to apologize, I'm just saying that it complicated localization for that game and they changed his character and name and looks.

Spoiler

My English can be a barrier sometimes for explaining something but I hope the point was clear

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

No need to apologize, I'm just saying that it complicated localization for that game and they changed his character and name and looks.

Spoiler

My English can be a barrier sometimes for explaining something but I hope the point was clear

Don't worry, your english is fine, it's not my first language too!

it wasn't that complicated, the alternative they found was pretty good, and it wasn't due to localisation, the change was also made in japan for the remake! From the wiki :

Profile

In the PSP remake, Hitler receives a mild censorship. His name is replaced by "Fuhrer" and he is wearing black sunglasses to cover his eyes. While the creators of the game gave no reason for this, it is highly likely that this was due to the CERO, the Japanese rating system for video games, similar to the North American ESRB and the European PEGI. The CERO has a rule which states that people with a real background (such as Adolf Hitler) may not appear in fictional media. Many also speculated that this was done in preparation of an international release, as some countries (like Germany) don't want to have games related to the Third Reich in their countries, and in fact there are very strict laws controlling the flow of such media. In the PS1 version, there were swastikas on the floor which were also removed in the PSP remake.

I found it even better with his sunglasses IMO, it adds to his smugness, haha

 

[Kinyou]

Throwing a KKK out there is rather crass if it was just meant to be a funny misspelling in the Japanese version.

I find it hard to argue that he's upholding the original version

 

[Conan-san]

And now, this whole bloody mess as interpreted though the medium of Simpson.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

And now, this whole bloody mess as interpreted though the medium of Simpson.

perfect

 

[mikezilla2]

Why are my eyes bleeding

this

and this Whole thing is just stupid.

 

[petran79]

What do the KKK and witch hunts even have to do with each other?

Both had their victims lynched,tortured and executed.Both featuring a cross. KKK was also inspired from persecutions by the Inquisition.
Witch hunts also included male youth victims,thought to be possessed.

Way too coincidental for a simple pun.
I choose not to believe their arguments. 1000 more examples to go.

 

[Lizardus]

Also, I haven't really gone into this yet, but I had localization reasons of my own for *defending* the original sign text here. Basically, I feel it was appropriate to keep because this game takes place in a real-life setting... a real-life setting that’s renowned worldwide for misusing English, often in hilarious or wildly inappropriate ways. The idea of walking through Akihabara IRL and seeing a sign that says something extremely offensive on it, written completely innocently by someone who had no idea what it meant, is... honestly, more or less expected.

Based purely on the quote above?

 

[Septimius]

I'm not even sure this is censorship. Its just some childish person finding humor in something stupid

I am absolutely sure this isn't censorship.

"Oh, wow, an innocent joke in our language invokes the imagery of the most outward racist group in the west world? I don't want that."
"WHY NOT, DON'T CENSOR YOURSELF"

What.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I thought KKK Witches was alluding to both KKK and witch hunts.

This was not a coincidence.Japanese knew exactly what they were making fun of. But they feigned ignorance.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and the sooner you realize that the better.

 

[jay]

Translation is censorship if not written by the original author. Down with translation.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Part of me kind of repsects the idea of being that hardcore about your principles that you're willing to go that far over something that most people would consider to be trivial.

That said, a much bigger part of me thinks that this is quite possibly the dumbest possible hill to choose to fucking die on.

 

[Linkark07]

To be fair that's kind of surprising they didn't know what the KKK was

Different cultures and they aren't something as horribly prolific as the Nazis....but still

Going against them saying "wow we had no idea and don't want to associate with this" is pretty stupid

Before Trump and the surge of the Alt Right in the US, I didn't even know what KKK meant or was. Or Trump too.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Before Trump and the surge of the Alt Right in the US, I didn't even know what KKK meant or was. Or Trump too.

Out of curiosity, where are you from?

 

[Linkark07]

Out of curiosity, where are you from?

Panama. Latin America. While we have our crazies, luckily we still don't have white supremacy idiots here.

 

[Nanashrew]

KKK was very prevalent in the US south so it's understandable if some countries might know that much about them. They've been in a ton of games as enemies (or at least in some, just coincidence then their look edited slightly to avoid offending people in international releases like in Earthbound) anyone that likely saw them in games dressed up in their cloaks all the time and thought they were some religious cult, you're not entirely wrong with that assumption and how their setup. KKK are christian extremists and they misinterpret the bible and its teachings and commit acts of violence and hate in the name of it and white superiority.

 

[NotMSRP]

NKK Switches -> KKK Witches

I see where this came from. 1 second of LOL at the joke but should probably be changed in the US. I normally agree with Tom in that I like the products to be close to the source material. I think a good compromise would have been either 3KS, 3XK, BKK, MKK, UKK, OKK, or XXX Witches.

 

[L Thammy]

KKK was very prevalent in the US south so it's understandable if some countries might know that much about them. They've been in a ton of games as enemies (or at least in some, just coincidence then their look edited slightly to avoid offending people in international releases like in Earthbound) anyone that likely saw them in games dressed up in their cloaks all the time and thought they were some religious cult, you're not entirely wrong with that assumption and how their setup. KKK are christian extremists and they misinterpret the bible and its teachings and commit acts of violence and hate in the name of it and white superiority.

I don't think it was based off the KKK, but the Happy Happyists from EarthBound were a religious cult, so I don't think it was totally coincidence. Stuff like the Wizzrobe from Zelda 2 though:

Maybe they were intentionally using the KKK image, but they probably didn't think about or know what the KKK was when they did.

 

[ArjanN]

KKK was very prevalent in the US south so it's understandable if some countries might know that much about them. They've been in a ton of games as enemies (or at least in some, just coincidence then their look edited slightly to avoid offending people in international releases like in Earthbound) anyone that likely saw them in games dressed up in their cloaks all the time and thought they were some religious cult, you're not entirely wrong with that assumption and how their setup. KKK are christian extremists and they misinterpret the bible and its teachings and commit acts of violence and hate in the name of it and white superiority.

A ton of Hollywood movies have the KKK in them too, although probably more 80s/90s stuff (Mississippi Burning, A Time To Kill, etc)

Hell even South Park has done a bunch of KKK jokes, so I kind of figure anyone who pays attention to US media would probably have a rough idea.

 

[Kangi]

I don't think it was based off the KKK, but the Happy Happyists from EarthBound were a religious cult, so I don't think it was totally coincidence.

They were based off of a different cult if I recall correctly, but their look definitely could've been slightly based off of the KKK. There was also the Threek -> Threed change to avoid a reference.

 

[LegitMcfalls]

Next week on Dave Rubin...

Tom: They censored my freedoms and my joke on my game!

Dave: The thought police are at it again acting like fascists and censoring hardworking american game dev translators.

Tom: So much for the tolerant left Dave.

Dave: So much for the tolerant left INDEED.

 

[Makonero]

They were based off of a different cult if I recall correctly, but their look definitely could've been slightly based off of the KKK. There was also the Threek -> Threed change to avoid a reference.

Here’s another famous localization change! This time, Nintendo of America’s target was Carpainter’s cult. As you can see, the cult members in MOTHER 2 have the letters “HH” (short for “Happy Happy”) on their foreheads.

In EarthBound, however, the letters are gone. Not only that, but the EarthBound cultists have a little fluffy thing at the end of their hats, most likely to make them look less evil and more like Santa (as if Santa weren’t evil). You gotta love the ties though…

It’s pretty obvious Nintendo of America was concerned with the cultists’ resemblance to members of the Ku Klux Klan.

http://legendsoflocalization.com/earthbound/happy-happy-village/

The Aum Shinrikyo cult is probably the other reference

 

[petran79]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and the sooner you realize that the better.

I have but never take things seriously in such cases

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

I have but never take things seriously in such cases

I'm curious as to your logic here. Because at least one Japanese designer in the 80s was familiar with the connection between white hoods and Nazis, another completely different Japanese designer must have intended some kind of connection between "witches" and "KKK" that specifically indicates an intent to reference "witch hunts"? Even though out of many many posters in this thread that on average should have a greater familiarity with the history of the KKK (since at least some portion of the posters are American) you are the only person to make that connection?

 

[petran79]

I'm curious as to your logic here. Because at least one Japanese designer in the 80s was familiar with the connection between white hoods and Nazis, another completely different Japanese designer must have intended some kind of connection between "witches" and "KKK" that specifically indicates an intent to reference "witch hunts"? Even though out of many many posters in this thread that on average should have a greater familiarity with the history of the KKK (since at least some portion of the posters are American) you are the only person to make that connection?

Is there a problem if I make that connection?
I would be on medication if I worried about Neogaf majority.

Japanese games,manga and anime have much worse.

One poster above agreed with me that it could be possible but rejected it. There!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is there a problem if I make that connection?
I would be on medication if I worried about Neogaf majority.

Japanese games,manga and anime have much worse.

One poster above agreed with me that it could be possible but rejected it. There!

Anything is possible, of course.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Congratulations on finding *an* example of a hooded nazi in a video game, though.

 

[petran79]

Anything is possible, of course.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Congratulations on finding *an* example of a hooded nazi in a video game, though.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Play that game. It is very fun. Kid Dracula on the NES.

 

[yanipheonu]

KKK means different things in different countries. In the Phillipines it was the name of a revolutionary group looking for independence. Imagine my surprise seeing KKK plastered over a museum exhibit while I visited there.

This seems like a non issue being overinflated.

 

[polyh3dron]

So the localizer finds humor in a KKK reference that was not the original intent of the dev, dev changes it one they realize this, localizer is pissed because censorship and he wants to preserve original intent?

That's not censorship or original intent, breh.

What a dumb thing to take a L for.

First, banned from GAF, and now potentially from work.

 

[zakujanai]

So the localizer finds humor in a KKK reference that was not the original intent of the dev, dev changes it one they realize this, localizer is pissed because censorship and he wants to preserve original intent?

That's not censorship or original intent, breh.

What a dumb thing to take a L for.

First, banned from GAF, and now potentially from work.

As I said above, Tom isn't perma-banned, he just chooses not to come back now. Probably for the best, Floofy said she wouldn't come back after her first ban, then she came back just to continually criticise the site and it's users because they had different opinions to her. If you aren't willing​ to discuss and only want to state your opinion as fact you really are better off being banned.

I feel like a GAF ban is a rite of passage, I got banned for telling PSP port beggers complaining about 3rd to get over it, no regrets.

 

[Nanashrew]

As I said above, Tom isn't perma-banned, he just chooses not to come back now. Probably for the best, Floofy said she wouldn't come back after her first ban, then she came back just to continually criticise the site and it's users because they had different opinions to her. If you aren't willing​ to discuss and only want to state your opinion as fact you really are better off being banned.

I feel like a GAF ban is a rite of passage, I got banned for telling PSP port beggers complaining about 3rd to get over it, no regrets.

I think Tom really did one over and it can't be really blamed on anyone but Tom. Other localizers and translators were even talking about Tom's stance on Twitter couple of days ago and found his stance to be stupid just as we all do.

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

This is from the same thread as the post everyone usually attributed his ban to, bust in case it hasn't been posted here yet, here's Tom saying that being for changes to fanservice is the exact same thing as being a racist and against gay marriage: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=184891733

Spoiler

My personal theory is that the ban was from this stinker, because YIKES.

 

[Squire]

This is from the same thread as the post everyone usually attributed his ban to, bust in case it hasn't been posted here yet, here's Tom saying that being for changes to fanservice is the exact same thing as being a racist and against gay marriage: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=184891733

Spoiler

My personal theory is that the ban was from this stinker, because YIKES.

I saw the gay marriage mention from a mile away and it still hit me like a truck. YIKES.

 

[The Technomancer]

http://legendsoflocalization.com/earthbound/happy-happy-village/

The Aum Shinrikyo cult is probably the other reference

Lol not just the resemblance, you really don't want your "cultists" with HH on their foreheads

 

[Weltall Zero]

I saw the gay marriage mention from a mile away and it still hit me like a truck. YIKES.

That entire post is amazing, but this entire paragraph is solid gold:

Alternately, why not keep the fanservice, but make it entirely optional? That way those who want it (the "13-year-olds," who are still part of the fanbase!) can have it, and those who don't can just turn it off.

I don't know which is most surreal:

1) The idea that child sexualization is perfectly fine as long as it's opt-in.
2) The idea that child sexualization is perfectly fine because somehow nobody other than children are interested in it (apparently pedophiles are imaginary creatures, like the chupacabra).
3) The "won't someone think of the poor horny 13 year olds" angle.

All of that in just two sentences, it's actually quite impressive.

 

[Cheerilee]

That entire post is amazing, but this entire paragraph is solid gold:


I don't know which is most surreal:

1) The idea that child sexualization is perfectly fine as long as it's opt-in.
2) The idea that child sexualization is perfectly fine because somehow nobody other than children are interested in it (apparently pedophiles are imaginary creatures, like the chupacabra).
3) The "won't someone think of the poor horny 13 year olds" angle.

All of that in just two sentences, it's actually quite impressive.

For a bit of context, they were talking about this image.

Anita Sarkeesian called it out as "unfortunate" that they chose to use such a sexualized image to promote an anime dancing game.

Tom argued for no censorship.

Some people argued that artistic rights don't matter in regards to localization, that thine eyes should be protected from such smut.

Tom argued that if you're so sensitive that you can't handle seeing a little midriff, maybe you should have optional censorship made available for you, rather than blanketly ruining things for everyone else. He also explained that he's taught English to Japanese children, and says that they (regardless of gender) are big fans of the idol scene. Basically, just because you think that a Japanese idol costume is filthy smut, it doesn't mean that everyone else is obligated to share your sense of disgust.

 

[Famassu]

For a bit of context, they were talking about this image.

Anita Sarkeesian called it out as "unfortunate" that they chose to use such a sexualized image to promote an anime dancing game.

Tom argued for no censorship.

Some people argued that artistic rights don't matter in regards to localization, that thine eyes should be protected from such smut.

Tom argued that if you're so sensitive that you can't handle seeing a little midriff, maybe you should have optional censorship made available for you, rather than blanketly ruining things for everyone else. He also explained that he's taught English to Japanese children, and says that they (regardless of gender) are big fans of the idol scene. Basically, just because you think that a Japanese idol costume is filthy smut, it doesn't mean that everyone else is obligated to share your sense of disgust.

The Japanese idol culture is horrible (with or without overt sexualization). That such young children are "big fans" is a problem, not a great defense for it at all.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

I have but never take things seriously in such cases

Fucking hell lad.

Just because one Japanese developer knows who the KKK are doesn't mean that all game Devs in Japan know.

It would surprise you to know that many Asians in general refer to black people with the N word, simply because that's what they call each other in rap videos.

You are taking the historical knowledge you know for granted.

 

[Nerokis]

I like Tom, and I can respect that he has principles which have been molded, in part, through a deep and laborious commitment to the localization of Japanese games. I'm sure those principles have often manifested themselves in more positive ways, such as in a unique attention to detail, and a useful sense of both Japanese culture and the tastes and preferences of XSEED's core audience. No doubt someone with his reverence for the original material is useful to have around in a localization group.

But yeah, he lost perspective and tripped up in this case. Fuck, man. Could have at least taken a walk before deciding to die on this particular hill.

 

[Foffy]

Next week on Dave Rubin...

Tom: They censored my freedoms and my joke on my game!

Dave: The thought police are at it again acting like fascists and censoring hardworking american game dev translators.

Tom: So much for the tolerant left Dave.

Dave: So much for the tolerant left INDEED.

Underrated post.

 

[Weltall Zero]

For a bit of context, they were talking about this image.

Anita Sarkeesian called it out as "unfortunate" that they chose to use such a sexualized image to promote an anime dancing game.

The sentence I quoted says "why not keep the fanservice, but make it optional.", and was in reply to "removing a bikini outfit during localization". How does that makes any sense whatsoever when referring to promotional material handed out to E3 visitors? What does it matter what the discussion was about originally when it was very explicitly referring to something else by then?

Tom argued for no censorship.

Some people argued that artistic rights don't matter in regards to localization, that thine eyes should be protected from such smut.

I'm sure that's exactly how it went. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt your neutrality in the matter, let alone your ability to interpret and accurately describe each side's arguments.

Tom argued that if you're so sensitive that you can't handle seeing a little midriff, maybe you should have optional censorship made available for you, rather than blanketly ruining things for everyone else.

It's kind of amazing that in the very same sentence you called people disconforted by overt underage sexualization "so sensitive", then proceeding to refer to maybe tone it a bit down as "blanketly ruining things for everyone else". I mean, I know you GG types almost as a requisite were home with the flu when self-awarenes was being handed out, but hot damn.

He also explained that he's taught English to Japanese children, and says that they (regardless of gender) are big fans of the idol scene. Basically, just because you think that a Japanese idol costume is filthy smut, it doesn't mean that everyone else is obligated to share your sense of disgust.

They're also not obligated to share your sense that sexualizing underage girls is normal, and definitely not obligated to shut up about it, but of course when has freedom of thought or expression been a two-way street for you guys?

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

They're also not obligated to share your sense that sexualizing underage girls is normal, and definitely not obligated to shut up about it, but of course when has freedom of thought or expression been a two-way street for you guys?

Plus being a fan of something doesn't mean you have to blindly enjoy every single aspect of it without issue. I love idol stuff, and some of it really makes me :|

I'm no fan of Anita, and certainly disagree with her idea that basically any sort of sexualization is inherently bad, but Tom was just the biggest dumbass when it came to talking about it to the point where it's much, much worse than what she said.

 

[NightWolve]

I wondered over the years if Tom-chan "Keep the KKK, man!" Lipschultz would *EVER* be held accountable IN ANY WAY at that poor excuse of a company, and finally, it happened, somewhat... This notion that he'll never be credited again as a result of his ill-conceived protest warrior stunt to save an unintentional reference to a terrorist hate group is hard to believe, but goes around comes around I suppose... While it's objectively unjust, it's something he gifted to me long ago, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm picturing a brief image of Nelson from the Simpsons pointing at Tom-chan and saying, "HA ha!" Seems I'll find justice if I wait long enough given his foot-in-mouth disease is catching up with him... He is an exceptional breed, that's for sure! I'll give him that!

 

[Roulette]

... ok?

I mean, you know two idiots don't make a not idiot, right?