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[ido]

I actually paid Palmer to build me an HMD years before Oculus was a thing(2010, to be exact), and it ended up being his first prototype that would eventually, after dozens of iterations, become the Rift. He named it PR1, and I still have it. Pretty neat, all things considered.

This was long before John Carmack ever started posting on MTBS3D forums, and long before Palmer ever met or chatted with Carmack. Not saying Carmack didn't help him, and provide valuable information along the way, but Palmer absolutely was making HMD prototypes that were better than almost everything else on the market a long time before Carmack got on board.

edit: date. I don't know what I was thinking. I had to go recheck my posts on MTBS3D lol

 

[Mega]

Should have used Dropbox.

That's even easier to prove that he stole docs. Company servers detect when you upload to the cloud. The company I work for actively blocks Dropbox, Google Drive, file uploading services, etc.

After his contract was terminated he was still allowed access the zenimax building.

Fucking derp. Basic security 101 failure on zenimax's part.

No, it isn't. If you leave a place in reasonably good terms and you have your former company's respect, it's easy to be granted access back to your office for any number of plausible reasons. It doesn't reflect poorly on Zenimax that their former employee is a conniving thief (assuming the allegations are true). Knowing he wouldn't dare steal vital company assets because he would be caught with 100% certainty is probably why they let him back in without much to worry about.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Zenimax's VR Solution: "There's money in those words. We doing anything? Let's play it safe and say we are. VR Fallout. Yeah."

Well that sounds plausible. Wait til VR ESO and then they beg us with $2 million to play that game.

uhhhhhh this needs a separate thread for sure. Holy crap.

VR Jesus a fraud? Ooooh baby we may have a stew going here.

I actually paid Palmer to build me an HMD years before Oculus was a thing(2005, to be exact), and it ended up being his first prototype that would eventually, after dozens of iterations, become the Rift. He named it PR1, and I still have it. Pretty neat, all things considered.

This was long before John Carmack ever started posting on MTBS3D forums, and long before Palmer ever met or chatted with Carmack. Not saying Carmack didn't help him, and provide valuable information along the way, but Palmer absolutely was making HMD prototypes that were better than almost everything else on the market a long time before Carmack got on board.

Or not. I think we need Judge Judy on this one. Only she has the power to cut through the bullshit.

 

[Riptwo]

I actually paid Palmer to build me an HMD years before Oculus was a thing(2005, to be exact), and it ended up being his first prototype that would eventually, after dozens of iterations, become the Rift. He named it PR1, and I still have it. Pretty neat, all things considered.

This was long before John Carmack ever started posting on MTBS3D forums, and long before Palmer ever met or chatted with Carmack. Not saying Carmack didn't help him, and provide valuable information along the way, but Palmer absolutely was making HMD prototypes that were better than almost everything else on the market a long time before Carmack got on board.

Were there any attempts at software lens correction/distortion prior to Carmack?

 

[QaaQer]

I actually paid Palmer to build me an HMD years before Oculus was a thing(2005, to be exact), and it ended up being his first prototype that would eventually, after dozens of iterations, become the Rift. He named it PR1, and I still have it. Pretty neat, all things considered.

This was long before John Carmack ever started posting on MTBS3D forums, and long before Palmer ever met or chatted with Carmack. Not saying Carmack didn't help him, and provide valuable information along the way, but Palmer absolutely was making HMD prototypes that were better than almost everything else on the market a long time before Carmack got on board.

When he was 12?

 

[Foggy]

As much as I understand it, every programmer is guilty of this kind of theft.

Who could do such a thing? I mean the nerve of some people. Goodness gracious. Makes me sick. Terrible.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

"Instead of complying with his contract, during his last days at ZeniMax, he copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device,”

This is some espionage corporate sabotage. Holy hell Carmack.

 

[thepenguin55]

Damn. Carmack is an idiot if this is true.

But that's the thing, that's assuming Carmack is an idiot, which he in no way is. Based on Bethesda's track record I would be more inclined to believe that there's some bullshit at play here.

 

[chubigans]

Separate thread for the Palmer news: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1267650

 

[Kaako]

When he was 12?

Damn, was he making these at that young age? WTF...

 

[SinSilla]

When he was 12?

Typo of him, it was 2009 when Palmer was 17.

 

[novabolt]

Radio silence on his twitter, I hope he's okay.

 

[redhood56]

Ruh Roh. This is crazy.

 

[A-V-B]

This is some espionage corporate sabotage. Holy hell Carmack.

Isn't that just their claim?

 

[El Topo]

But that's the thing, that's assuming Carmack is an idiot, which he in no way is. Based on Bethesda's track record I would be more inclined to believe that there's some bullshit at play here.

What is Bethesda's track record when it comes to lawsuits against former employees?

 

[Armaros]

Radio silence on his twitter, I hope he's okay.

with these type of allegations, you dont speak publicly unless the legal team says so.

 

[Fugu]

Thats funny considering your posts in this thread.

It's not a very big thread so I think it shouldn't be hard for you to quote some examples of me saying whether I believed he violated his contract or not.

To clarify: I don't know if he violated his contract or not. I don't particularly care.

If it wasn't in the contract, why would Zenimax be going up against the giant that is Facebook that they knew they could not win because they didn't have the law on their side?

There are a lot of reasons why they might. They may believe they'd win a case or even that they would have a reasonable chance at a settlement. Not everyone who files a lawsuit deserves to win a lawsuit.

Well it's because you want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you know how many inventions have been created by very smart people at 3m while working for 3m ? The reason they work there is for steady paycheck, benefits, pension.
And in return they own 0 point 0 percent of those inventions.

I understand the need for companies to claim ownership on the things their employees produce. I understand that this often serves a legitimate purpose.

I also understand that this sometimes doesn't serve a legitimate purpose and that it can, in some cases, negatively impact innovation. This is somewhat irrelevant though since we have no idea which of these kinds of cases this one is. My bigger point is that my sympathy is often with the inventors even though I get the larger societal benefit behind corporations holding these rights.

 

[Smokey_Run]

You don't need a law degree to know that you don't own anything you make when you're on the clock at a company. All you need is to have worked for a company where you have to sign a contract, they're all the same (relatively).

Sorry your hero (allegedly) fucked up.

This can extend to college course work too. Someone I know had a messed up situation brewing over something created for a class project.

 

[Stranya]

I'm an employment lawyer. Impossible, of course, to give a definitive opinion based on the info we have. We'd need to see the relevant contracts, evidence etc.

However, it is reasonable, based on standard practice, for employee contracts to specify that IP created by the employee in the course of their employment belongs to the employer. We can also reasonably assume that Zenimax have some evidence (IT records etc) that Carmack copied over files; if they didn't (and it was just their word against his), they would never bring a claim like this.

One key question (as yet unanswered) is whether or not Zenimax have any proof that Carmack used the allegedly stolen IP for Zenimax's benefit. Clearly this is their argument.

Also, this kind of shit - employees copying files/material just before they leave a job - happens all the time. This isn't an unusual allegation in itself (despite being unusually high-profile).

Edit: fat fingers on phone

 

[WhateverItTakes]

When he was 12?

According to Wikipedia could've happened:

He had an intense interest in virtual reality (VR), and built an extensive private collection of over 50 different head-mounted displays, often purchased at auction for a fraction of their original cost.[1][6][8]

Haven't gone through the sources, but it's either a lie he's kept going on for a while, a half truth, or this guy is the genius that we've been told about, and I'm impressed as hell.

 

[Iorv3th]

Isn't this also assuming that carmack then also still had AD access to login to access these files? Why after you terminated an employee would you still have him able to log in? That's one of the first things you do is cut off their access and lock it down.

Usually after someone is fired they might be let back in to get their things but escorted by security. They just let him walk in freely and access a computer that's likely joined to a domain and grant him access? I doubt it.

 

[SinSilla]

Typo of him, it was 2009 when Palmer was 17.

Just to Highlight it again.

According to Wikipedia could've happened:


Haven't gone through the sources, but it's either a lie he's kept going on for a while, a half truth, or this guy is the genius that we've been told about, and I'm impressed as hell.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Were there any attempts at software lens correction/distortion prior to Carmack?

yes. software lens correction has existed as long as image editing programs have existed. the only difference is now we have more efficient algorithms. we also have gpus that can do it in hardware with Pascal. Zenimax claims with Luckey should be disregarded as they are completely disregarding the hardware portion of the Rift. Palmer of course is an engineer not a program. so, the claims of Luckey not being able to program would not affect his ability to build a headset. it'd just mean someone else would be responsible for the SDK.

 

[Stranya]

Isn't this also assuming that carmack then also still had AD access to login to access these files? Why after you terminated an employee would you still have him able to log in? That's one of the first things you do is cut off their access and lock it down.

Usually after someone is fired they might be let back in to get their things but escorted by security. They just let him walk in freely and access a computer that's likely joined to a domain and grant him access? I doubt it.

This sort of thing happens a lot. One job I left, I had remote access to my work login/emails/database for weeks after. Terrible practice, but it happens. Sometimes people get colleagues to do them favours, too.

 

[Mookie1515]

Woah there little buddy, if this is true Facebook gonna have to pay some bucks thats all.

So the plot is Zeni threatens, hoping Facebook will settle out of court? Seems like an interesting move to draw Carmack's name through the mud if that is the only goal.

But what do I know of this stuff.

 

[Xamtheking]

There are a lot of reasons why they might. They may believe they'd win a case or even that they would have a reasonable chance at a settlement. Not everyone who files a lawsuit deserves to win a lawsuit.

They have 0% chance to win anything if Carmack didn't violate his contract in some way. Facebook could eat Zenimax for a light snack, and will easily be able to hire the best lawyers and Facebook couldn't give a shit over the legal fees they might have to pay if Zenimax tried to tire them out.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

On one hand - Zenimax have proven to be cutthroats when it comes to business-dealings (Prey 2, New Vegas bonuses tied to MC score) but Carmack is also the kind of guy who maybe wouldn't even realize he was breaching his contract by undertaking such tasks.

Zenimax could be full of shit, but there's enough reasonable doubt that Carmack may have acted in the wrong here.

 

[moltonasty]

Honestly, fuck Zenimax tho

#stickittotheman
#standwithcarmack
#prey2neverforget

 

[Iorv3th]

This sort of thing happens a lot. One job I left, I had access to my work login/emails/database for weeks after. Terrible practice, but it happens. Sometimes people get colleagues to do them favours, too.

Yeah but you wouldn't expect it at a business that deals with technology and software development.

 

[Venom Fox]

I actually paid Palmer to build me an HMD years before Oculus was a thing(2005, to be exact), and it ended up being his first prototype that would eventually, after dozens of iterations, become the Rift. He named it PR1, and I still have it. Pretty neat, all things considered.

This was long before John Carmack ever started posting on MTBS3D forums, and long before Palmer ever met or chatted with Carmack. Not saying Carmack didn't help him, and provide valuable information along the way, but Palmer absolutely was making HMD prototypes that were better than almost everything else on the market a long time before Carmack got on board.

Zenimax aren't accusing Palmer of stealing the HMD design or anything like that. Re read what Zenimax are saying.

 

[Fugu]

They have 0% chance to win anything if Carmack didn't violate his contract in some way. Facebook could eat Zenimax for a light snack, and will easily be able to hire the best lawyers and Facebook couldn't give a shit over the legal fees they might have to pay if Zenimax tried to tire them out.

Often lawyers and judges - even teams of lawyers and judges - disagree on whether or not a contract was broken. Just because they've made an allegation doesn't mean that allegation is true.

 

[RickD]

I wonder what proof they have.

Probably dlp

 

[Kill3r7]

Take all of this with a grain of a salt. Allegations in a complaint are not evidence or proof of wrong doing.

 

[sense]

microsoft is somehow in the middle of this stuff with their oculus and bethesda relationship so should be interesting to watch how this story develops

 

[BleedOrange]

If this is true then Carmack is in some deep trouble, I mean copying files before leaving is a big No-No.

Especially after you give notice. Any sort of half-assed auditing system keeps tabs on everything an employee does with company data after it's known that they are leaving a company.

 

[vpance]

That's even easier to prove that he stole docs. Company servers detect when you upload to the cloud. The company I work for actively blocks Dropbox, Google Drive, file uploading services, etc.

I know, I was mostly joking. Some companies are more lax than others when it comes to that sort of thing of course.

 

[n0razi]

Carmack = Lochte
Zenimax = Brazilian Police

 

[Stranya]

Often lawyers and judges - even teams of lawyers and judges - disagree on whether or not a contract was broken. Just because they've made an allegation doesn't mean that allegation is true.

Yep - sometimes, whether or not a contract has been breached is very arguable either way.

Spoiler

sometimes not

 

[Riptwo]

...so Zenimax is arguing that without software demos to run on it, a well realized piece of hardware made from off the shelf parts doesn't qualify as invention. That kind of seems like claiming that DVD players were invented by filmmakers.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

So weird reading "if true" or "if he did it" in a neogaf thread. Probably because it's Carmack but gaf usually convicts people as guilty until proven innocent with articles like this.

 

[QFNS]

I feel like Software people taking copies of their own work for self archiving is super common in parts of the industry. I don't know if this would apply to someone like him or not. Its possible the files copied could be hardware spec sheets and manuals which can frequently run in the 100s of pages and are often freely available from the manufacturers. Without some proof on either side we won't know what they are ralking about.

Without knowing Carmack's side of this there is no way to be sure if this is some kind of theft or something else less sinister. I'm disinclined to believe Zenimax's claims simply because the entire suit sounds like sour grapes. I'm sure they have some justification, but overall it sounds like they are mad that Carmack did well with Facebook/Oculus and want to be compensated.

 

[leehom]

Interesting.

I worked at a company and my boss was a micromanager and wanted me to do things in very specific ways. On the side, I did things in addition to his methods that made my job easier. Upon leaving that section for a different section, I deleted all my side work I did to make my job easier. I left intact everything he asked me to do. Was I wrong to delete my extra work?

 

[ido]

Typo of him, it was 2009 when Palmer was 17.

Hey Sin!

Yeah, typo on my part. It was 2009-2010. Didn't receive the prototype until 2010 though, August to be exact. This was still a long while before Carmack started posting on those forums, which was my original point.

Sorry for the date confusion.

 

[deadlast]

...

To clarify: I don't know if he violated his contract or not. I don't particularly care.

There are a lot of reasons why they might. They may believe they'd win a case or even that they would have a reasonable chance at a settlement. Not everyone who files a lawsuit deserves to win a lawsuit.

I understand the need for companies to claim ownership on the things their employees produce. I understand that this often serves a legitimate purpose.

...

So I have to study and understand computer forensics and how it applies to my job, because it is required for understanding chain of custody and all that nonsense.
Based on the highlighted bit, I believe the only way ZeniMax could win this case or get a settlement is if they had a 3rd party forensic team come in and validate that John did this. Also, Zenimax would have to show that they collect and review logs regularly prior to this event.
Proving that Facebook orchestrated the entire thing is going to be pretty hard.
Get ready for the wild ride GAF.

 

[Outrun]

If this is true then Carmack is in some deep trouble, I mean copying files before leaving is a big No-No.

Depends what the files were...

 

[ido]

Zenimax aren't accusing Palmer of stealing the HMD design or anything like that. Re read what Zenimax are saying.

I know, I was responding to the post about Iribe making Palmer the VR Jesus.

 

[Kuros]

Oculus will claim all kinds of stuff that's exaggerated. Zenimax the same. Truth probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[DouglasteR]

Uh oh, so this is why Doom BFG Edition VR support simply dissapeared.

 

[Nightshade]

I wouldn't be surprised if he simply violated his non-compete without taking files/materials and Zenimax is claiming/inflating he took files to add weight to their case.

 

[Venom Fox]

I know, I was responding to the post about Iribe making Palmer the VR Jesus.

Ah ok that context clears things up. I wonder where all this will go?