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[Raticus79]

Interesting that they're going ahead with it.

Is there really much incentive for them to settle here? I imagine the legal costs would be a much bigger problem for Zenimax.

 

[Nikodemos]

These things take time. They may very well have been working on this before Facebook came into the picture but if they have a atrong case they are probably glad someone with lots of cash came into the picture

these_things_they_take_time.gif

 

[Nokterian]

Oh zenimax...

 

[PuppetMaster]

They are absolutely right that Lucky would still be nothing right now if it was not for Carmack. Just a kid in a garage.

The sticky part is that Zenimax is trying to claim all the work Carmack did as their own. And though this sounds "fucked", technically Zenimax might have the law on their side.

 

[Cameron122]

War was beginning

 

[LiK]

Sigh

 

[meanspartan]

Where's the money in that?! Gotta sue when they're worth a ton!

Law student here, though admittedly Contracts was not my best subject....in equity, the concept of laches generally protects against a plaintiff purposefully waiting to sue in order to accumulate more damages. It might apply here.

 

[SmithnCo]

Incoming Facebook lawyers.

 

[TheYanger]

Which they waited until they were worth big money to do anything about it.

Well...yeah? What would they get from suing them when they were basically a startup?

Law student here, though admittedly Contracts was not my best subject....in equity, the concept of laches generally protects against a plaintiff purposefully waiting to sue in order to accumulate more damages. It might apply here.

They're not accumulating more damages though, are they? The claim is the same as it would have been, the difference is the ability of Oculus to actually pay anything worth the effort?

I would assume accumulating more damages would be like, letting someone continue to rip you off so that you could sue them for more.

 

[Zeuanimals]

So is this because they lost Carmack? Or is this going to hold some water?

Sounds like it.

"The suit arises from the defendants' unlawful exploitation of intellectual property, including trade secrets, copyrighted computer code, and technical know-how relating to virtual reality technology that was developed by ZeniMax after years of research and investment"

I'd imagine John Carmack took the ideas and coding he and whoever else helped him with it when he was at id, and put into development of OR. If it was just Carmack who wrote the code, then... Well, I don't know what to say. Companies love suing one another, especially when one company just got bought for a billion(?).

 

[sandkiller]

Interesting to note that John Carmack was not named in the suit.

Naturally, this will be settled out-of-court in a relatively short space of time.

Just read the lawsuit and yes, he is mentioned.

 

[KissVibes]

Considering all the horror stories about how Zenimax does business, I find all of this hard to believe. Not to mention this only sprung up after Oculus Rift was sold for more than what Zenimax is valued at..

 

[sflufan]

Just read the lawsuit and yes, he is mentioned.

But is he named as a defendant in the suit?

 

[Amey]

'The Social Network' sequel incoming.

 

[bryehn]

Pretty douchey timing, but Zenimax gun get paid. No way Facebook lets this get to trial.

 

[cakefoo]

I like how people just blindly support Oculus. No facts, just bias-driven fanboy delusions.

Wait for the facts. Be adults.

 

[Partial Gamification]

But is he named as a defendant in the suit?

The lawsuit: http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf

Strong case, in my opinion. Defense will need Herculean effort not to settle.

 

[floatingcoffins]

If facebook did their due diligence, they knew this was a possibility and bought it regardless. A bold move.

 

[dudeington]

They are absolutely right that Lucky would still be nothing right now if it was not for Carmack. Just a kid in a garage.

The sticky part is that Zenimax is trying to claim all the work Carmack did as their own. And though this sounds "fucked", technically Zenimax might have the law on their side.

That's not true. Oculus has received several rounds of funding and built an enormous amount of hype before Carmack came on board. Don't get me wrong, he's crucial to the company going forward but Palmer Lucky was far from a kid in a garage.

 

[CambriaRising]

I like how people just blindly support Oculus. No facts, just bias-driven fanboy delusions.

Wait for the facts. Be adults.

Yeah okay buddy. You let us know when we are allowed to have an opinion, yell loudly because it's sometimes hard for us to hear from people so high in the ivory tower.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

These things take time. They may very well have been working on this before Facebook came into the picture but if they have a atrong case they are probably glad someone with lots of cash came into the picture

Doubtful. Zenimax legal wants that Facebook green. And, they have a history of being a very legitious company.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Yeah this lawsuit coming in the wake of the Facebook buyout is clearly indicative of some shady and nefarious business dealings.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

I don't understand the 'unfair competition' bit. Since then Zenimax has been into VR technology ? How are OR's products competing with Zenimax's ?

 

[Betta Lines]

Part 66 is hilarious. "Look at this picture of Carmack helping Luckey get the Rift to work - this shows the Rift wouldn't have worked without Zenimax's help because reasons"

 

[gofreak]

Skimming the complaint. A pertinent early detail/claim...

Carmack was given a copy of the prototype by Luckey, and Carmack and other ZeniMax personnel added numerous improvements to the prototype.
Together, those ZeniMax employees literally transformed the Rift by adding physical hardware components and developing specialized software for its operation.

Kind of tallies with Carmack's interviews at the time. That it wasn't just work on the Doom port. And it sounds very much like it was done on Zenimax time.

Of course, that's their claim.

 

[Ishan]

well everything keeps saying the zenimax timing. I'm thinking what if palmer sold out to fb when he did also because he knew something like this was incoming and needed the backing to sustain the settlement and keep occulus going.

I'm def don't believe occulus is in the clear with this suit. Something is def up.

 

[djplaeskool]

Popcorn: Ready.

 

[Denton]

Damn John Carmack must be angry as fuck that he ever went ahead with selling id Software to Zenimax. I suspected it was bad idea back than, but I had no idea it would turn out this bad. Zenimax suing Oculus/Facebook for possible tens/hundreds of million, id Software in shambles, dying...
Damn.

 

[jetjevons]

Strong case, in my opinion. Defense will need Herculean effort not to settle.

Go on.....

 

[Cat Party]

The allegations in the complaint are pretty thorough. This is going to get sticky. The gist of it is that Luckey came up with the crude hardware, and Carmack and his team developed the software and refined the hardware. If that's true, hard to see how ZeniMax doesn't deserve compensation for the work of its employees.

No doubt they overstate their level of contribution, but this isn't some blatant cash grab.

 

[Zeuanimals]

'The Social Network' sequel incoming.

I'll only watch it if they portray it how the events really go, and how it really goes down is an Oculus Rift powered Tron light cycle race and disc battle, winner takes all just to be sued by Disney for using the Tron IP without them approving. It's gonna be a trilogy.

 

[kittens]

So, they're essentially suing Facebook, right? Good luck with that.

 

[cakefoo]

Yeah okay buddy. You let us know when we are allowed to have an opinion, yell loudly because it's sometimes hard for us to hear from people so high in the ivory tower.

Oh it's completely within your right to have an opinion based solely on fanboyism and not facts. It doesn't contribute to the legal discussion in any way. Cheerleading to boost morale is an effective way to influence simple minds, but it doesn't actually have any logical persuasive qualities.

 

[Clott]

Are people really taking the side of Facebook? Granted we don't know what kind of evidence Zeni has, but if they were instrumental in researching the technology, then they deserve to be compensated.

 

[PuppetMaster]

That's not true. Oculus has received several rounds of funding and built an enormous amount of hype before Carmack came on board. Don't get me wrong, he's crucial to the company going forward but Palmer Lucky was far from a kid in a garage.

No . Carmack was helping him BEFORE he officially came "onboard" with Oculus. Even before the Kickstarter. That is the heart of Zenimax's suit.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Oh it's completely within your right to have an opinion based solely on fanboyism and not facts. That's a typical mindset sadly.

There aren't really any facts yet, so you're effectively saying we can't talk about this? You know legal cases are all about choosing which sides "facts" are true right?

 

[TheBowen]

Will be interesting to see who is the one telling the lies in this situation. But Zenimax is essentially going up against Facebook

It may not end well, but I bet it will end up being settled out of court.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I'm confused, isn't this old news?

The filing of the lawsuit is new.

[5 May 2014]
A little over a month ago, Facebook announced they were buying the maker of the Oculus Rift headset for upwards of $2 billion. Now suddenly another company claims it's their technology that make the virtual reality device worth buying. ZeniMax Media has sent multiple letters to Oculus and Facebook, claiming employee John Carmack "improperly took ZeniMax's intellectual property with him to Oculus." Carmack was a former id Software (owned by ZeniMax) employee. ZeniMax claims the information Carmack took is what helped Oculus become so successful.

However, ZeniMax did not start sending letters until the knowledge that Facebook was acquiring Oculus went public, which is raising eyebrows. An Oculus representative told The Wall Street Journal, "It's unfortunate, but when there's this type of transaction, people come out of the woodwork with ridiculous and absurd claims. We intend to vigorously defend Oculus and its investors to the fullest extent."

When Carmack went from ZeniMax to Oculus last summer, five other ZeniMax employees followed. ZeniMax wrote this in a letter to the Oculus lawyers and Facebook's general counsel: "It was only through the concerted efforts of Mr. Carmack, using technology developed over many years at, and owned by, ZeniMax, that Mr. Luckey [founder of Oculus] was able to transform his garage-based pipe dream into a working reality."
http://www.thewire.com/technology/2...ift-didnt-steal-intellectual-property/361704/

[5 May 2014] In a statement, Oculus VR said: "We are disappointed but not surprised by ZeniMax’s actions and we will prove that all of its claims are false." The company also provided a list of key points they say are relevant to the situation.

There is not a line of Zenimax code or any of its technology in any Oculus products.
John Carmack did not take any intellectual property from ZeniMax.
ZeniMax has misstated the purposes and language of the ZeniMax non-disclosure agreement that Palmer Luckey signed.
A key reason that John permanently left ZeniMax in August of 2013 was that ZeniMax prevented John from working on VR, and stopped investing in VR games across the company.
ZeniMax canceled VR support for Doom 3 BFG when Oculus refused ZeniMax’s demands for a non-dilutable equity stake in Oculus.
ZeniMax did not pursue claims against Oculus for IP or technology, ZeniMax has never contributed any IP or technology to Oculus, and only after the Facebook deal was announced has ZeniMax now made these claims through its lawyers.
Despite the fact that the full source code for the Oculus SDK is available online (developer.oculusvr.com), ZeniMax has never identified any ‘stolen’ code or technology."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/oc...ech-from-fallout-parent-company/1100-6419420/

There are claims on both sides. The facts might never reveal themselves.

edit: and the GAF threads:
Zenimax accusing Carmack of stealing tech when he left for Oculus [1 May]
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=811384&highlight=zenimax

Zenimax cancelled VR version of Doom:BFG because Oculus wouldn't give them equity. [5 May]
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=813388&highlight=zenimax

 

[GuardianE]

Not sure why people are assuming that Zenimax's allegations aren't conceivably true. It'll be interesting to see how this gets resolved.

 

[sflufan]

I predict that we will see the Facebook/Oculus counter-claim being filed in relatively short order.

 

[call_kotaku]

Am I the only one who feels like Zenimax was the one that was screwed over?

I feel like the whole story hasn't been told yet.

They demanded equity in Oculus in exchange for them porting Doom 3, and Oculus immediately pulled out. Now the company is worth billions and id lost their key employee, so there's definitely sour grapes. The fact that Oculus works just fine with companies like Valve and Epic is a pretty good indication that Zenimax tried something dodgy.

 

[BronsonLee]

Unless one of these sides is Dyack-level insane, this shit will get settled.
I personally hope it is not.

 

[Yoda]

I hope if I ever find myself in court my jury is a little more impartial than the people in this thread.

 

[Ikuu]

I know nothing about this case but I'm going to say Zenimax are lying and Facebook are completely innocent.

 

[gofreak]

Part 66 is hilarious. "Look at this picture of Carmack helping Luckey get the Rift to work - this shows the Rift wouldn't have worked without Zenimax's help because reasons"

The run-up has some fairly incisive commentary from Carmack himself, from public interviews, about the state of Luckey's hardware pre and post his involvement.

Zenimax paint a pretty convincing picture that a) they (i.e. Carmack) was working on a lot of VR stuff prior to contact with Luckey and that b) they took what was, per a paraphrasing of Carmack's own words, '$500 of optics', and augmented it with work done pre-Luckey's contact.

Quoth Carmack, E3 2012: 'He’s offering, going to be offering this as a kit for only $500 for the optics. He just sent it to me – the optics – I added my sensors, and the strap, and the software and stuff onto here.'

It's true, and easy to say, that this is just Zenimax's side of things, but it's convincing in the context of how well it tallies with what was publicly said in the time period in question.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Usually when you use a company funded laptop or pc to create any technology for yourself, the company by legal means has the right to own what you create because you used their resources and that is what I think is part of the lawsuit. John carmack might have used id and zenimax resources to create tech which helped oculus vr and took it with him when he left. Zenimax will win the case if carmack signed that agreement when he was their employee

 

[Zeuanimals]

No . Carmack was helping him BEFORE he officially came "onboard" with Oculus. Even before the Kickstarter. That is the heart of Zenimax's suit.

Was he helping them with the use of ZeniMax's resources, or was he doing that of his own accord and with his own ideas that aren't copyrighted by ZeniMax?

 

[Mesoian]

"GIVE US CARMAC AND WE'LL WALK AWAY!
WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT YOU!
ALL WE WANT IS CARMAC!"

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I'm not convinced that either side is "right." In a computer sense, it should be pretty cut and dried, but "trade secrets, copyrighted computer code, and technical know-how" could be pretty vague and encompass a lot.

Probably a multi-year saga. We'll see how public it becomes.

 

[Schnozberry]

Usually when you use a company funded laptop or pc to create any technology for yourself, the company by legal means has the right to own what you create because you used their resources and that is what I think is part of the lawsuit. John carmack might have used id and zenimax resources to create tech which helped oculus vr and took it with him when he left. Zenimax will win the case if carmack signed that agreement when he was their employee

He did sign an agreement that included VR. Zenimax mentioned it in their brief today. My guess is this settles for a pile of cash. Carmack should have known better.