Maninthemirror
Banned
Its impossible to think carmack didnt use zenimax resources and if zenimax proves carmack did to create any tech then zenimax has a case. Even one line of code on a zenimax pc makes the case for lawyers
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Zenimax sues Oculus VR
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Did you just try to copy and paste this thread on OT? lol
They want Oculus to succeed and want to ignore potential wrong doing that could stop that from becoming a reality. That's what I take as the reason for why there is an automatic assumption that Zenimax is saying isn't true or deny it could even be true. If things seem to line up with what was said public by Carmack, etc then things might not look good for Oculus and Facebook is going to be pissed if they didn't know about this ahead of time.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Hope this doesn't hinder the Rift's development.
chaostrophy
Member
Sucks. Unlike most of the internet I liked Skyrim and would love to see TES6 on Oculus. Probably not gonna happen now.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I didnt know about it already being in gaming
i thought they moved it from ot to gaming but seems someone already created it here
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
I might be mistaken but I believe there are some contracts that state anything you come up with or work on while you're under employment is their property.
Then we're on the same page: taking sides without facts is silly.
To add, people who do that and then label it their "opinion," are patently ignorant, and they have nothing rational to add to an open discussion.
Schnozberry
Member
It's not knowledge or skills that were used. It was allegedly technology and code covered by signed NDA that were provided by Zenimax to Oculus. There is a huge difference.
PuppetMaster
Member
This is the heart of the case and the what they have to prove in court. It depends on the fine print of contracts that were signed.
I'll say again that just because something sounds unfair or fucked, does not mean the law is not on Zenimax's side.
shadowstar
Member
Wouldn't matter. Anything he created while working for Zenimax, regardless of whether he did it on his own time or work time, is likely owned by Zenimax. Big companies and even schools always do this.
Maninthemirror
Banned
On their pc not on your personal pc . I can be a facebook employee but I can create a technology on my own laptop and facebook cannot touch it but if i used Facebook's laptop then facebook will own it
It happens, sure. I'd like to see any kind of proof that Carmack signed a contract like that, though.
Eh, 100% chances that there will be a fan-mod/patch that includes Oculus VR compatibility.
shadowstar
Member
Nope. Facebook can totally own it if you signed a contract saying they own anything you create as long as you're employed by them.
Edit: Misread it but according to the complaint it should all be within the scope of his employment as Zenimax claims it was done with their employees and code.
Zenimax's point is that this was work done at Zenimax, and quite a lot of it work done before Oculus Rift was even a 'thing'.
Not work done by Carmack now that he has left Zenimax. Work done back in 2011/2012.
The claim even screencaps emails from Carmack to Luckey wherein Carmack sent code and other assets, after E3. I guess Luckey will have to prove this stuff was unused or didn't have any impact on Rift's development. I think that'll be tricky.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Well then, that actually makes the case stronger for zenimax
Actually, depending on the terms of the employment contract, that's exactly what would be the case. This is especially so in "knowledge industries."
Schnozberry
Member
It's a gray area, but depending on the contract signed, anything that was developed using Zenimax's time and/or resources could legally belong to them. If Carmack used tools and equipment borrowed from Zenimax to create prototypes in his garage during his free time on the weekends, they'd still own it.
I know for a fact Carmack wrote drivers for the thing while being a Zenimax employee. Carmack's heavy involvement and interest in Oculus was one of the main reasons there was so much good will about it at first. Zenimax may have a case.
NullPointer
Member
jabberwocker
Banned
Then it's fair game.
CambriaRising
Member
Oh okay. I see what you are now.
Nikodemos
Member
AHA-Lambda
Member
Wait, weren't they already suing them over John Carmack?
shadowstar
Member
LOL
Ha. In the claim Zenimax says that both Zenimax and Carmack warned Luckey not to use anything Zenimax (i.e. Rage or Doom3) in further promotion of OR...yet he used Doom in the kickstarter promotion (even offering copies to backers apparently?) and a Rage demo in further press promotion.
It's sort of a minor thing vs some of the other claims but they're really painting Luckey as someone who was very keen to exploit Carmack/Zenimax for credibility.
edit - beaten above!
It's sort of a minor thing vs some of the other claims but they're really painting Luckey as someone who was very keen to exploit Carmack/Zenimax for credibility.
edit - beaten above!
shacklesmcgee
Member
This. Don't see why they don't outright say what Oculus stole or Carmack made.
Graphics Horse
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIkrQK60N-4#t=27
I can't judge on the copyright issues but this was obviously presented as a Zenimax approved project.
Do tell.
Denton
Member
SmoothRunningGun
Member
I know everyone is going to take oc's side but none of us know what really happened. Like most arguments there is probably some truth on both sides.
shadowstar
Member
That's probably evidence. They wouldn't mention the specific things here but do say:
43. A few days later, ZeniMax set up a file transfer protocol (“FTP”
44. ZeniMax sent Luckey additional proprietary information on an ongoing basis:
45. Luckey used ZeniMax’s VR Technology that he acquired through the FTP site and otherwise to create and promote the modified Rift headset.
46. Around the same time, ZeniMax also sent cables and customized sensors to Luckey and disclosed – pursuant to the Non-Disclosure Agreement – additional hardware design improvements regarding optics calibration and sensor mounting.
55. On July 21, 2012, Luckey asked ZeniMax how to “flash” (i.e., install) customized firmware onto the sensors that ZeniMax selected for the modified Rift. ZeniMax provided that know-how, and further suggested an improved location on the modified Rift for mounting the sensor that “would be best from an alignment and rigidity standpoint.” Luckey then sought ZeniMax’s technical guidance regarding the selection of low latency cables.
56. On July 25, 2012, Luckey asked ZeniMax for the customized binary code for the tracking sensors that Carmack had added to the modified Rift. Pursuant to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, ZeniMax provided Luckey with a link to an FTP site to download the binary code. Luckey downloaded the customized binary code and used it for future demonstrations of the modified Rift.
Carmack in the email in that section (pg.17) also mentions the .exe he sent.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Reading all this. Zenimax will get a big pay day either with a settlement or a win. Their case seems strong but it will be pocket change for Zuckerberg
I think some of the software Zenimax is talking about would exist at a much lower level than the SDK. Some of it was hw driver code I think. I don't think OR has made that level of code available (?)
I'm no lawyer, I guess if Oculus can prove that none of the code from Zenimax/Carmack was transferred to a third party at any point - i.e. that it was changed or excised before it could be disclosed to another party - that would probably be the grounds for their defence. Although Zenimax might make claims about derivative works...
Zenimax also seems to be also making a broader point about the importance of their work back in 2012 to Oculus, not just how much of that code is line-for-line present today. However I've no idea about the legalities of what compensation Zenimax could expect for that.
Partial Gamification
Banned
I can't summarize the whole thing, much has been touched upon.
There is this:
For all talk of compensation, ZeniMax does not have an abundance of documented requests within the document, in fact there seem to be a lack of explicitly defining how compensation was sought prior to the talks around an equity stake. it seems around that time was when the Occulus started to take-off.
They're doing their damnedest to downplay Palmer's own knowledge and write him off as a college kid with a smartphone screen, when some of the original discussion between Carmack and Palmer is still on the internet and Palmer's razor sharp about everything back in May 2012.
Trying to associate their "tens of millions of dollars in R&D" with whatever pitiful amount their cited VR research cost them is some shady shit, too.
Trying to associate their "tens of millions of dollars in R&D" with whatever pitiful amount their cited VR research cost them is some shady shit, too.
PuppetMaster
Member
If Carmack used his work email to send those he is kind of screwed. Even if he was using his @idsoftware.com Zenimax is in their rights to say they own that communication.
Even before this thing blew up I was worried about the way Carmack was involving himself in this project. Like if I tried to do this where I work now, they would hang me out to dry.
Schnozberry
Member
This is going to be a jury trial, likely with a jury not filled with GAF Members. It will be interesting to see if this even gets to court.
Well, that is an incredibly detailed complaint. Reading through the facts of the case as presented by Zenimax, one gets the impression that Luckey was operating under the assumption that everyone was collaborating in good faith. Zenimax, of course, is a ruthless multinational run by a fundamentally dishonest man -- Luckey probably should have foreseen this outcome.
Anyways, regardless of whether any impropriety actually occurred, I think Zenimax may be able to fuel the perception of impropriety, and that may be enough for a quick, painful settlement.
Anyways, regardless of whether any impropriety actually occurred, I think Zenimax may be able to fuel the perception of impropriety, and that may be enough for a quick, painful settlement.
Nikodemos
Member
Facebook have one of the best data mining programmes in existence (the others being Google and Amazon, entirely unsurprisingly). If there's a scrap of evidence they can use, you bet they already have it.
The reason I personally dislike ZeniMax is said company appears to be run by old-school vulturous assholes, which I abhor. Even if you drool when gazing upon the riches your former slave has managed to accrue, be reasonable. VR exclusivity for your IPs on the Oculus is more than enough repayment. Don't be a greedy fuck.