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Someone inform me on the save limit with Gameboy/DS games

First off let me clarify for those who don't know: Gameboy games (B&W, Color, as well as Advance) and DS games all have limits on the amount of times you can save because of an internal battery in each cart/card. Ever since I've discovered this, I've been paranoid of buying used DS/GB games for years, ESPECIALLY RPG's since I compulsively save in RPG's.

Could someone tell me what exactly this supposed number is? I'm under the impression that this number (the number of times you can save on these carts/cards) is relatively huge, but really I'd like to know.

Anybody knowledgeable on this subject?
 
Chris Michael said:
First off let me clarify for those who don't know: Gameboy games (B&W, Color, as well as Advance) and DS games all have limits on the amount of times you can save because of an internal battery in each cart/card. Ever since I've discovered this, I've been paranoid of buying used DS/GB games for years, ESPECIALLY RPG's since I compulsively save in RPG's.

Could someone tell me what exactly this supposed number is? I'm under the impression that this number (the number of times you can save on these carts/cards) is relatively huge, but really I'd like to know.

Anybody knowledgeable on this subject?

There isn't really any hardcore number.

If you have a battery-backup cart (SRAM+battery), then you can save indefinitely, as the battery is just making sure the contents stick around. The cart is otherwise pulling power from the game system to do the actual save writes.

If you have an eeprom/flash type save, then there is no battery but the eeprom itself is rated for thousands to hundreds-of-thousands of writes before it runs out of enough writeable space for the save file. I've never seen an actual durability quote though. I'd guess 10k+? (edit: and I mean number of save attempts, not data size. eeprom is a complete write sweep so data size generally doesn't matter.)

Historically (at least for the GBA days) SRAM allowed for much bigger save sizes at (unfortunately) higher cartridge costs, whereas eeprom was great at tiny saves. But without some sharp soldering work I don't think an eeprom is remotely replaceable.
 
Ok I'm a little bit confused.

The Faceless Master said:
right, these things are rated in the the ballpark of 10,000+ writes for the cheap stuff, and the millions for the good stuff.


So different games can endure different endurances of saves? Like, bigger first and third party games have millions of writes, but shovelware like Nickelodeon games have only thousands?

So what about first party games like Golden Sun, or games like Fire Emblem or Mario Bros 3 for the GBA (they autosave ALL THE TIME)? Do you think they'd die off fairly soon? Or what about games like Animal Crossing for the DS (it saves twice through each playthrough)?

Sorry for the abundance of questions, this issue has always confused me to no end.
 

MrDaravon

Member
If you're going to get TEN THOUSAND plus saves at a minimum, why on earth would you be concerned about this? The most compulsive saver in the longest/most hardcore game available on these systems wouldn't even use a tenth of that over a lifetime.

2ivemu8.jpg
 
Chris Michael said:
Ok I'm a little bit confused.

So different games can endure different endurances of saves? Like, bigger first and third party games have millions of writes, but shovelware like Nickelodeon games have only thousands?

I doubt it; I've never heard of Nintendo offering different strength eeproms. Just different sizes. eeprom gets a complete flash each time so each write is essentially -1 on the lifespan. Flash saves (used by some carts too) are a bit more advantageous because they can do partial writes, so they can conceivably last longer.

With battery carts, SRAM is effectively immune to cell damage and will last as long as the battery holds up (5-10 years, generally...) Fire Emblem is an interesting case, (yes, it probably saves enough to violate typical # of saves/minute guidelines) but it seems to use SRAM, so it's technically off the hook.

I don't think I've ever heard of an eeprom/flash failure with game carts that wasn't due to manufacturing error, so I really don't think you'll be hitting a save cap any year soon.
 
This is not completely true. This is, in general, something I've spent a good while looking in to...

In short (hah!), there are five ways a game can deal with saving data.

1) Don't save anything.
Save Lifespan: Until you turn the console off.
Used by: Most/all pre-NES cartridge games (I don't know of any console systems before the NES with saving... but I could be wrong, that isn't my strongest area),and many games on many platforms up until last gen. (Note that the DS is the first Nintendo handheld with saving in every game released for the system...)

2) Passwords.
Save Lifespan: Forever, as long as you wrote it down correctly.
Used by: Many games from the NES to GBA eras. Handhelds and cart systems see most of these games, like with no-save titles, but some CD system games are password-save only; some early PSX games, for instance (Warhawk, Pandemonium, etc).

3) Hard Drive/Floppy Disk.
Save Lifespan: Until the disk corrupts. Unlimited saves until then.
Used by: Famicom Disk System for the NES, 64DD for the N64, Xbox (hard drive), Xbox 360 (hard drive), Playstation 2 (hard drive), Playstation 3 (hard drive). PCs mostly use this system too, of course. Reliable... mostly.

4) Battery-backed memory (known as SRAM)
Save lifespan: Until the battery dies. Unlimited saves until then, but these batteries will probably only last 5-25 years and then will need to be replaced, not easy for most people. Replacing the battery (or having it die) wipes the cartridge of all saved data.
Used by:
-NES (all games with saving);
-SNES (all games with saving);
-Game Boy (all games with saving);
-Game Gear (all games with saving);
-Game Boy Color (most titles have batteries in them. All (I think) dual mode GB/GBC (black carts) have batteries. With clear GBC only carts, just look in them to tell. :))
-Sega Master System (all games with saving);
-N64 (all Controller Paks have batteries in them. About half of N64 games either don't save (some fighting games) or require a controller pak. Of the other half or so, most use EEPROM and a few use Flash RAM. About 12 US-released titles with on-cart saving, however, use SRAM battery save. These include F-Zero X, Ogre Battle 64 (though it also supports controller paks), Zelda OoT (but not MM, that's flash), The New Tetris, SSB, and a few others);
-Genesis/32X (most games with saving have batteries, but a few use EEPROMs - see below); -Sega CD (the internal backup ram and backup ram carts use rechargable batteries to keep their saves);
-Turbografx-16 (the two or three games with on-cart saving, as well as rechargable batteries that power the SRAM in the the save addon unit and the CD unit);
-3DO (system has internal battery, perhaps rechargable?);
-CD-i (again, internal battery in the system);
-Saturn (internal battery in the console, though it is user-changable and isn't rechargable);
-GBA (some titles use batteries for saving or for clocks. Most games have flash memory for saving, but not all.)

Note that all PCs, and consoles such as the Dreamcast, have batteries inside them, but these are used just for keeping the clock (and in PCs, for keeping the CMOS bootup information, or in Dreamcasts, for saving internet connection settings), not for saving data. Clocks can't run on flash memory, they usually need a battery (or internet connection, perhaps?). This is somewhat different, though.

5) Flash Memory (most common types: EEPROM, FRAM, and Flash RAM)
Save lifespan: Saves will stay on the cart for as long as the cart lasts (or at least a hundred years). The number of times the chip can be written to is limited, however, and varies depending on type from tens of thousands to a million or more. Once that point is reached you can't write to the chip anymore (but what is there will presumably stay).
Used by:
-DS (all games);
-GBA (GBA supports FRAM, EEPROM, SRAM (battery), Flash RAM, or no save. Without opening carts, it is hard to tell which games use which types; emulation sites list the types, but they can't tell FRAM (flash type) apart from SRAM, so the two are grouped together... making it impossible to know exactly which GBA games use batteries without opening all of the games in question and checking, I think.);
-GBC (specific titles have EEPROMS instead of SRAM. It's easy to tell which, because of the clear carts for GBC-only games. The only one I know for sure that uses EEPROM is Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble.);
-N64 (Aside from the always battery-backed controller paks and the 12 (plus a few more Japan-only) SRAM titles mentioned in the above category, all other N64 games with on-cart saving have EEPROM or Flash RAM chips.);
-Jaguar (I think I heard that the carts are actually flash... not certain, though...);
-Neo-Geo Pocket Color (flash carts, all of them. Not all games have saving, though the ones that do are all through flash.)
Genesis/32X (all titles from Acclaim with saving use EEPROMs (NBA Jam, etc), mostly, but also a few others -- Sonic 3, Monster World III (Wonder Boy in Monster World), Monster World IV, and a few more have EEPROMs as well. The only companies to use EEPROMs on Genesis were Sega, Codemasters (Micro Machines series), Acclaim, and EA (for just one or two titles).);
-Saturn (plug-in memory carts are flash-based memory.);
-PSX, PS2, NGC, Xbox, Dreamcast, and X360 memory cards.
-Flash memory card formats such as SD, CF, Ministick, etc, as used by the Wii and PSP (and PS3).
-The Wii's internal flash memory.
-USB Flashdrives (if any consoles support them).

Unsure at the moment: Lynx (battery probably? not sure), Jaguar CD (I think I heard about this before, but forget at the moment what it uses), TG-16 memory cards (I would imagine that they use rechargeable batteries as does the internal save, but am not certain), all systems not released in the US, the Game.com, and possibly a few more.

For the GBA and N64 (among others), if you're wondering why so many systems are used, it's simple... size. Different types are different sizes and cost different amounts. For instance, on the N64 there were several options: no internal save (use no save or controller paks), 4Kb EEPROM (first in Mario 64), 16Kb EEPROM (first: Yoshi's Story), 32KB SRAM (Zelda OoT was one of the first), 128KB Flash RAM (Pokemon Stadium first). Most third parties saved money by just including controller pak saving; all games published by Nintendo have some form of save memory in them, as do some third-party games, but which type depended on how much space was needed. The GBA has different sizes available and adds one more type, FRAM, but the issues of space deciding which type to use remained.

I don't know the story why the Genesis had a small number of EEPROM titles and a lot of battery-backed ones, though... I wonder about it, but really have no idea. Listing of all EEPROM titles: http://gxdev.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/gen_eeprom.pdf ( from this site )

Honestly, I think I prefer flash to battery-backed. Sure Flash RAM has a short lifespan, flash-wise (10,000?), but EEPROM and FRAM last longer, and any of them is likely to last longer than a battery, particularly because that battery continues to drain while it's sitting in the cart unused on the shelf, while a flash chip sitting in another cart won't be using up its writes as long as it's sitting there. :)
 

ElFly

Member
On carts that use a battery, you will need to change the battery sooner or later, probably losing the save in the process.

edit: epic beating
 
That was an -extremely- informative post Falcon, thanks a ton. That clears it up.

Thanks guys, I walk away successfully informed. I guess now I just need to find out which GBA games use batteries and what kind of flash memory certain DS games have. :p
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
A Black Falcon said:
Honestly, I think I prefer flash to battery-backed. Sure Flash RAM has a short lifespan, flash-wise (10,000?), but EEPROM and FRAM last longer, and any of them is likely to last longer than a battery, particularly because that battery continues to drain while it's sitting in the cart unused on the shelf, while a flash chip sitting in another cart won't be using up its writes as long as it's sitting there. :)
Yeah, saving once a day it would take over 27 years to get to 10K writes so it's not an issue at all.
 
Chris Michael said:
That was an -extremely- informative post Falcon, thanks a ton. That clears it up.

Thanks guys, I walk away successfully informed. I guess now I just need to find out which GBA games use batteries and what kind of flash memory certain DS games have. :p

Well, I started collecting classic consoles in 2005 with my purchase of an SNES... before then I'd just had current systems and PCs so thinking about this wasn't really an issue, but once I got into it, I quickly got interested, and wanted to know which systems used which types of saving... the Genesis thing is pretty mysterious right now (as far as I know, that listing from December 2007 is the first listing with all of the EEPROM titles! I don't think any PC Genesis emulators can emulate saving in EEPROM titles, such as NBA Jam, Monster World III/IV, Mega Man: The Wily Wars, and those others...).

But yeah, as I said, I prefer flash memory types, because they don't degrade while sitting on teh shelf. It is true that once a chip has been written to as many times as it can (and here, as I said, Flash RAM runs out quickest; EEPROM has more writes than that, and FRAM has a lot, I'm pretty sure) that cart is pretty much dead because you can't change the chip like you can a dead battery, but that lifespan should be so much longer that it doesn't matter as much.

Of course, if you've got a USB flashdrive and you're stupid enough to let Windows use it as additional RAM or whatever that option is it sure is going to kill itself through too many writes in a hurry, but for console games... it should take a good while.

(One other game-death issue is EPROM chips (not to be confused with EEPROMS! They are completely different... :)), but that's quite different. EPROM chips are an alternative to the normal Masked ROM chips that cartridge-based systems use for storing the main (non-writable) data; they are cheaper, but have 25-year lifespans or so. I don't know if any console after the NES arrived used EPROMs; as far as I know, they've mostly been used in homebrew carts, (some) arcade games, and some pre-NES system carts (some 2600 games have them, I'm pretty sure.). But that's a different problem, and for the most part a smaller one, thankfully.)
 

Osuwari

Member
wowooowow that's a really useful post

i knew some of the details listed there but overall it covers virtually all bases, even obscure ones as the 64dd (i own one. i feel safer and hope the disk doesn't corrupt)

the only thing that worries me is the games that use a battery. most of those games are already past the 5 year barrier and some of my important n64 games are around 10 years by now. it will suck bad when the batteries inside my fzx and the new tetris carts die.
(the others don't matter since i don't have nothing great saved)
 
Fuzzy said:
Yeah, saving once a day it would take over 27 years to get to 10K writes so it's not an issue at all.

Yeah, for games which only save when you tell them to, 10,000 won't be a problem for a long time... it could be an issue for a title which constantly auto-saves, though. Most games don't do that, and most of the ones that do are probably battery-backed (for instance, I haven't checked, but I suspect that the GBA Fire Emblem games are battery-backed... they're in the "FRAM/SRAM" category savetype-wise, anyway, and I've never seen internal shots. They could be FRAM; the fact that the two US titles are later releases, while the majority of SRAM GBA titles are early releases like Castlevania: Circle of the Moon or F-Zero Maximum Velocity, while FRAM was a later development that became popular with many later GBA titles but I think wasn't available initially, suggests that it's actually FRAM... so I'm not sure. :)), but for ones that do... potential shorter lifespan if you play the game a lot (Pokemon Puzzle League-N64... Flash RAM, autosaves a lot...).
 
Osuwari said:
wowooowow that's a really useful post

i knew some of the details listed there but overall it covers virtually all bases, even obscure ones as the 64dd (i own one. i feel safer and hope the disk doesn't corrupt)

the only thing that worries me is the games that use a battery. most of those games are already past the 5 year barrier and some of my important n64 games are around 10 years by now. it will suck bad when the batteries inside my fzx and the new tetris carts die.
(the others don't matter since i don't have nothing great saved)

For the N64, it is easy to back up those battery-backed controller paks, at least. You just need a DexDrive (easy to find and cheap online), a v3.3 Gameshark with a working back parallel port (harder to find because of how unreliable the things are), or an Adaptoid N64 controller to USB adapter (its got to be the genuine Adaptoid, that supports controller paks and rumble paks; those junky import ones don't support such things.), and can then back up your controller paks to PC. With the Gameshark (3.3), it's even possible to back up on-cart saves to memory cards, I think, which you could then presumably back up to PC if the whole process went well...

For the GBA there are also ways of getting saves off the carts, though they're a bit less accessible than for N64, I think. But for other, older consoles... yeah, unless you have expensive hardware (grey-market cart-backup hardware, etc), there's no option really except to watch the carts die and all need battery replacements. And watch you lose all of your saves.

Oh yeah, and I forgot the NGPC and PS3, so I added them in. For the rest... am I missing any post-NES US-released consoles?

... yeah, the SMS... erm, all games with saving have batteries for that. Any others?
 
dragonlife29 said:
Wow, I didn't even know about this o_O

A lot of people don't.

A few more resources, if anyone is interested...

N64 save type listings:
http://n64.icequake.net/mirror/www.elitendo.com/n64/usa_boot_save_list.html
http://n64.icequake.net/mirror/www.elitendo.com/n64/usa_boot_save_faq.html#s1

GBA/DS save types: (use search)
http://www.releases.pocketheaven.com/

The DS does have several different save types, but they are just different types of flash memory (various sizes of EEPROM and Flash RAM).
 
So is it possible to somehow keep your save data while you're changing a cartridge's battery? My NES game batteries haven't died yet but I know they don't have much time left. :lol
Edit:
FBut for other, older consoles... yeah, unless you have expensive hardware (grey-market cart-backup hardware, etc), there's no option really except to watch the carts die and all need battery replacements. And watch you lose all of your saves.
Never mind. That's going to suck. At least Kirby's Adventure is only 13 years old or so. But StarTropics and Zelda...uh oh. :lol
 

M3d10n

Member
There's also a DS homebrew which can backup and restore the save data from the carts. I used so I could lent my copy of Dawn of Sorrow to a friend without fearing him wiping my saves.
 
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