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How can you love someone who is racist?

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C

Chariot

Member
TedNindo said:
Love is irrational.
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This.
Of course you can love a racist. People fall in love with all kind of people all the time. Strange or fatally wrong views of the world, thiefs, arsonists, murders, rapist; everyone is able to get love. It depends on the level of racism, while all are wrong, the lower ones can be bearable in a relationship, even if you disagree with the views.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
MC Safety said:
I don't think it is.

The fact that we had many racially insensitive institutions and practices is indicative of how different things were even in the recent past.
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Except for all the people from that time that aren't racist. Garbage excuse.
 
quickwhips

quickwhips

Member
thebaroness said:
I don't understand how you COULD love someone so nasty. But that's just me. I'm not here to tell anyone how to live.

But I do expect something to be said. Saying nothing AND making excuses for them means you're condoning their actions via your own non-action. Why is it not ok to tell off your parent or family member is such a situation? "Shut the fuck up mom." would be appropriate to me.

I don't talk to my own family for similar reasons, I don't understand trying to please one's family.
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You must be awesome to have discussions with.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
MC Safety said:
Sure. We can dismiss institutionalized racism because not everyone embraced it.

Take that nonsense elsewhere. thanks.
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You clearly missed the point. The fact that there are many people "from that time" that are NOT racist makes the excuse "Oh he/she is from a different time" ring hollow and insincere.

Where did I say to dismiss institutionalized racism? ???

Unless I am misunderstanding you?
 
N

nynt9

Member
TheOMan said:
You clearly missed the point. The fact that there are many people "from that time" that are NOT racist makes the excuse "Oh he/she is from a different time" ring hollow and insincere.

Where did I say to dismiss institutionalized racism? ???

Unless I am misunderstanding you?
Click to expand...

The social, institutional and political structures of the time prevented a lot of people from encountering opinions that challenge their racism as they could just live in a bubble. Nowadays it's a lot harder thanks to the Internet.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
thebaroness said:
I'm not trying to change anyone. I'm asking why our generation feels it's ok to not stand up to them.
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Those 2 things you wrote here don't go together.

The real answer, it's not worth the stress. In the end, you'll get all fired up, and you'll expend a lot more emotion, anger, stress, energy than the person you are angry with.. and the net result is they are still the same.. yet you'll be all the more disappointed.

There's things in life worth fighting for, but trying to change every fucked up person you meet won't change anyone but make you a miserable person.

It's not about accepting them, you don't have to accept them not cause strife.
 
C

cubicle47b

Member
I couldn't date or be good friends with someone who was racist. You don't choose your family, though. You can either ostracize them (which often means ostracizing yourself), get in an argument with them nearly every time you see them, or just ignore and move on when they say ignorant shit. Some people prefer the latter, especially when the person is close to 80 and just sits in their house watching Fox News all day.
 
Wiktor

Wiktor

Member
Well..you could be racist yourself. That would solve the problem :D

Anyway, love can overwrite a lot of negative elements in other people's personality. For example plenty of women abused by their partners still love them and that's much bigger obstacle than racism. Love isn't rational.
 
V

Vinci

Danish
I personally limit my interaction with family members whom I know to be racist, but I don't cut them out entirely. Hell, I've called a couple of them out on it, but the truth is - it's hard for someone in the last years of his or her life to reverse deep-seeded attitudes and perspectives they've had for decades.

There are some - like my grandmother, for example - who grew up during such times and yet still seemed to accept and love everyone, but those are few and far between. In fact, I've never met anyone quite like her since her death.
 
D

dinazimmerman

Incurious Bastard
I believe I have a moral obligation to love people who are "bad." Note that this does not include making excuses for them. Nonetheless, I do always try to force myself to understand the reasons why people might behave badly or possess pernicious beliefs. It teaches me empathy, and to simply attribute the way they act or think to the fact that they're "assholes" would be fallacious, anyway.
 
M

MC Safety

Member
TheOMan said:
You clearly missed the point. The fact that there are many people "from that time" that are NOT racist makes the excuse "Oh he/she is from a different time" ring hollow and insincere.

Where did I say to dismiss institutionalized racism? ???

Unless I am misunderstanding you?
Click to expand...

The notion that there were people who rejected racism in the past is not relevant. You needn't keep harping on it.

Institutionalized racism lent an air of legitimacy to the practice of bigotry and the behaviors/beliefs that supported such. It was not only fashionable to embrace the notion of racial superiority, the government sanctioned it.

It's of no concern to me that you disbelieve people are not influenced by the time in which they live. But the evidence is overwhelming that the prevailing beliefs have shifted dramatically in terms of our attitudes toward racial interactions.

In short, the times they have changed and dramatically so.
 
Z

Zibrahim

Member
if my 80 something year old grand mother can change her views on the world...

anyone can. I refuse to accept that people become static over time and are incapable of changing their views on things.

I can understand why people would love their relatives regardless of their views, but I will never accept people who dismiss those views as indicative of a different time and refuse to challenge those views.

You are being disingenuous and are insulting both my and your relative's intelligence by not challenging their views or asking them to have some modicum of manners by not expressing them in public.

I agree with OP that it is inexcusable to simply sit there and let someone spew hate speech you know is hate speech.

To me, that is like going to your friend's house, meeting the mom and the mom fart's in your face and you're supposed to sit there and take it because that's just how she is.
 
E

Eidan

Member
I have zero tolerance for racists in my personal circles, and I'm lucky to have been raised by people that don't harbor that kind of hate in their hearts.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Zibrahim said:
if my 80 something year old grand mother can change her views on the world...

anyone can. I refuse to accept that people become static over time and are incapable of changing their views on things.

I can understand why people would love their relatives regardless of their views, but I will never accept people who dismiss those views as indicative of a different time and refuse to challenge those views.

You are being disingenuous and are insulting both my and your relative's intelligence by not challenging their views or asking them to have some modicum of manners by not expressing them in public.

I agree with OP that it is inexcusable to simply sit there and let someone spew hate speech you know is hate speech.

To me, that is like going to your friend's house, meeting the mom and the mom fart's in your face and you're supposed to sit there and take it because that's just how she is.
Click to expand...

Well, farting on someone's face is a pretty deliberate action taken towards a specific person.

Someone spouting off racist viewpoints to the air is more akin to someone farting while the walk around the kitchen. Not exactly socially acceptable at all, but not the same as someone deliberating farting in my face.

I can ignore one, the other not so much.
 
A

Aiustis

Member
My grandmother is kind of racist she's said as much to me on occasion.

But she's 90 and black. So I don't imagine you get that way and don't have a little vitriol towards white people.
 
F

Fugu

Member
I have a story relevant to this.

As a preface, I'm extremely liberal. Think of the most left-leaning person you know and double it.

One of my oldest and best friends is engaged to a woman who has been variously described as ignorant or racist. She's "earned" this by saying various disparaging things about Indian/"brown" people that have suggested that she has some kind of irrational prejudice. Two specific comments that are somewhat recurring are that she is constantly complaining about how she doesn't want a brown doctor (because she "can't understand them") and that Indians can't drive, a complaint which is nearly ubiquitous where I live (there's a big Indian population so I believe that this particular complaint is borne of a combination of ignorance and confirmation bias). This is obviously not tantamount to saying that brown people are inferior or even that they shouldn't be in the country, but it is a kind of "casually racist" statement that I believe is nonetheless not acceptable and spawned from an ignorant place.

Where this story gets more tricky is that my girlfriend is half white, half Goan, and looks sort of like a really tanned white person with unusually dark hair; you wouldn't know she's from Goa if you weren't told, a notion supported by the fact that everyone seems to believe that she's South American. So my friend's fiancée (then girlfriend) gets into how she doesn't want a brown doctor in the company of my girlfriend (who she thinks is ostensibly from South America), which leads my girlfriend somewhat perturbed. In a highly misguided attempt to ease the situation, my friend's fiancée decides to tell my girlfriend that she's "one of the good ones", which simply annoys her further. It's been a year and a half since that happened and the situation has escalated so far out of control that they're not on speaking terms. Over that period of time, my friend's fiancée has provided plenty of fodder for the argument that she is very ignorant on the subject of race.

Anyway, I'm supposed to be the best man at their wedding and he's a big part of my life. It sounds to me that the OP is suggesting that I break off one of the best friendships of my life to this point, but I've instead chosen to ignore her and lament the negative effects her influence has had on my friend, a decision which has similarly had negative effects on my own relationship.
 
K

Keri

Member
nynt9 said:
The social, institutional and political structures of the time prevented a lot of people from encountering opinions that challenge their racism as they could just live in a bubble. Nowadays it's a lot harder thanks to the Internet.
Click to expand...

In addition to this, if we're talking about senior citizens, the reality is that their racism and sexism is, by and large, completely irrelevant: They're not hiring people for companies and few take the opinions of senior citizens seriously, to begin with. It's safe to write-off their racist and sexist views, because everyone writes-off their racist and sexist views.
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
People are more than their bigoted opinions/perceptions.

If you define the whole ness of a person just by their racism / homophobia / whatever, you are committing the same mistake they do, IMO.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Most people who are flagrantly racist (note: most) grow up in environments that produce this sort of ignorance in the same way someone born in 1850 was probably a racist. It doesn't mean I seek them out or simply accept it, but it gives me empathy for their position. Further, people are highly averse to change, so when past generations adopt values they're very unlikely to change them en masse. The easiest way to move society forward, in the long term, is simply for older generations to die. I do not say this in a hostile or angry tone; the same will be true of us some day. One day, we will be the old fuddy duddies who just can't accept clones or just can't accept polygamy or whatever progress movements exist in 2060, and the only way to change society will be for us to die.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Goya said:
I believe I have a moral obligation to love people who are "bad." Note that this does not include making excuses for them. Nonetheless, I do always try to force myself to understand the reasons why people might behave badly or possess pernicious beliefs. It teaches me empathy, and to simply attribute the way they act or think to the fact that they're "assholes" would be fallacious, anyway.
Click to expand...

I agree with this completely. As an extreme, simple example: sociopaths do not choose to be uncaring or unfeeling, it's simply how their brain was programmed. It doesn't mean that it's a good thing, but it certainly gives me empathy for their position. How could they understand other people's feelings? Their brain simply isn't wired to do so.
 
S

Seanspeed

Banned
thebaroness said:
It's not an illness or addiction, it's just a rottenness of the heart.
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Its ignorance and being raised in a situation that allowed our natural prejudices to flourish instead of being stamped out.

And when I say 'natural prejudices' I don't mean its normal to be racist, necessarily. I mean that our brains work in a way that we are prejudiced towards all sorts of things due to ignorance, relating to people or not. Someone might have a bad experience at Burger King once and then swear off Burger King for the rest of their life, insisting they hate Burger King.

Basically, our mind is built to be prejudiced. Its a useful and downright necessary part of our makeup and how we learn, but it also flawed and can lead us astray. Like many things that are 'natural' to us, like the desire for many sexual partners or the desire to beat the shit out of someone for making you angry, it is of utmost importance that we learn how to avoid impactful negative behaviors, and that includes stamping out any harmful and unnecessary prejudices we have. Its pretty harmless to hate Burger King because of one bad experience, even if it is irrational, but is not harmless to hate an entire group of people. And we make this change by being taught understanding and tolerance. We sometimes need to be taught *why* its wrong to think these things. And if that's not reinforced at a younger, more influential age, prejudice and other negative behaviors can become deeper rooted.

Now I'm not saying you should forgive somebody who is blatantly racist, or that you should still love them. But I do feel sorry for them and I do feel that it usually not entirely their fault and their upbringing certainly can account for a large part of the way they are. Basically, I don't believe people are 'evil'. Not in the vast majority of cases, at least. We just need to be better about teaching people, especially at a young age, how and why to not do or think these things that our minds lead us to think. Take a lesson from these people. And be glad that future generations look brighter on the whole.
 
R

Rawket Lawnchair

Member
You can do whatever you want to do. You can love whoever you want to love. You can stay in contact with the people you want to stay in contact with.

What you can't do, is expect from people to do what you would do if you were in their position. If something bothers or offends you and you're not in your home, excuse yourself and leave.

Edit: Oh and yes, people change and can change at any point in their lives. This change however (of opinions, beliefs, etc.) has many strong prerequisites (such as a good education, a sum of experiences, meaningful relationships with other people, a desire for growth) that not many people can achieve.
 
Y

You Are Viewtiful

Member
I'm sorry but how can OP expect someone to hate their mother just because she's racist? And it's true that there's no convincing your own parents in these kind of matters. I mean my parents aren't racist, but I couldn't sway their opinion on anything even if I tried. To them, I am still "their baby".
 
P

PhantomHound

Banned
People have many faults. Why would you be so quick to abandon loved ones for their ignorance?

Assert your opinion, but still show love. You won't change any hearts by being a rotten to them, and you'll likely make the problem worse.
 
O

Opiate

Member
thebaroness said:
I don't really see why it's something that can be overlooked. It's not an illness or addiction, it's just a rottenness of the heart.
Click to expand...

So, do you feel that virtually all white Americans in the 1850s just happened to choose to be rotten of heart? Even those who were anti-slavery were typically not of the opinion that whites and blacks were exactly equal and everyone should be able to marry whoever they want.

You might think "well, it was different back then. They didn't have the education and understanding we have now." And my response to that would be: well, clearly not everyone has gotten that education and understanding yet. It's better than it was in 1850 by quite a bit, but not perfect. Lots of people still grow up in environments which allow or even foster ignorance and bigotry.

Recognizing this doesn't necessarily mean I seek out friends who are racist -- I avoid them if I can -- but I do have empathy for them.
 
S

Sparkedglory

Member
Melkr_ said:
People are more than their bigoted opinions/perceptions.

If you define the whole ness of a person just by their racism / homophobia / whatever, you are committing the same mistake they do, IMO.
Click to expand...
Viewing somebody as a piece of crap because they're a different skin color or have a different sexuality, is pretty darn different than viewing them as such because they're constantly spewing racist/homophobic garbage.

At least that's what I think.
 
Z

ZeroFate

Member
OP, I totally get where you're coming from. In my mind, if I didn't constantly call these people out for being racist/sexist/homophobic/etc it would be like being complacent with the whole thing. I'm not even doing it with the overall goal of "changing" them, I just want them to know that kind of talk IS going to get a reaction out of me. Every. Time.

For example, one of my good friends is a raging sexist. He's learned throughout the years that if he makes any questionable comments around me I WILL call him out on it and there will probably be a good 30 minutes wasted on us going back and forth. Guess what? He's pretty much cut out most of his remarks. The same thing with a racist grandma of mine. She for damn sure wouldn't embarrass me in front of a friend after the arguments we've had.

Too many people give family/friends a pass and bite their tongues when they make crazy inappropriate comments. When in actuality, it should be the asshole family/friends biting THEIR tongues for spewing insanely hateful bigoted shit.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
my dad says stupid shit from time to time but he is still one of the most important people in my life.

I'm not gonna shun a family member just because they said something that is offensive.
They are not running for public office, I don't care

I just laugh at him when he goes off and accept that he is 70 years old and that he won't change. I still love him.
 
Y

Yado

Member
Fugu said:
I have a story relevant to this.

As a preface, I'm extremely liberal. Think of the most left-leaning person you know and double it.

One of my oldest and best friends is engaged to a woman who has been variously described as ignorant or racist. She's "earned" this by saying various disparaging things about Indian/"brown" people that have suggested that she has some kind of irrational prejudice. Two specific comments that are somewhat recurring are that she is constantly complaining about how she doesn't want a brown doctor (because she "can't understand them") and that Indians can't drive, a complaint which is nearly ubiquitous where I live (there's a big Indian population so I believe that this particular complaint is borne of a combination of ignorance and confirmation bias). This is obviously not tantamount to saying that brown people are inferior or even that they shouldn't be in the country, but it is a kind of "casually racist" statement that I believe is nonetheless not acceptable and spawned from an ignorant place.

Where this story gets more tricky is that my girlfriend is half white, half Goan, and looks sort of like a really tanned white person with unusually dark hair; you wouldn't know she's from Goa if you weren't told, a notion supported by the fact that everyone seems to believe that she's South American. So my friend's fiancée (then girlfriend) gets into how she doesn't want a brown doctor in the company of my girlfriend (who she thinks is ostensibly from South America), which leads my girlfriend somewhat perturbed. In a highly misguided attempt to ease the situation, my friend's fiancée decides to tell my girlfriend that she's "one of the good ones", which simply annoys her further. It's been a year and a half since that happened and the situation has escalated so far out of control that they're not on speaking terms. Over that period of time, my friend's fiancée has provided plenty of fodder for the argument that she is very ignorant on the subject of race.

Anyway, I'm supposed to be the best man at their wedding and he's a big part of my life. It sounds to me that the OP is suggesting that I break off one of the best friendships of my life to this point, but I've instead chosen to ignore her and lament the negative effects her influence has had on my friend, a decision which has similarly had negative effects on my own relationship.
Click to expand...

My best friend is like a brother to me and him dating someone like this would seriously impact our friendship. To me, sticking with a racist partner and wanting to marry them says a lot about a person.
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
Sparkedglory said:
Viewing somebody as a piece of crap because they're a different skin color or have a different sexuality, is pretty darn different than viewing them as such because they're constantly spewing racist/homophobic garbage.

At least that's what I think.
Click to expand...

Of course it is not the same thing, what I meant is that you don't fight fire with fire.

People with racists/bigoted views give themselves the permission to avoid being empathic. If you don't try to be empathic with close people who have narrow worldviews, then a similar mistake is committed.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
MC Safety said:
The notion that there were people who rejected racism in the past is not relevant. You needn't keep harping on it.

Institutionalized racism lent an air of legitimacy to the practice of bigotry and the behaviors/beliefs that supported such. It was not only fashionable to embrace the notion of racial superiority, the government sanctioned it.

It's of no concern to me that you disbelieve people are not influenced by the time in which they live. But the evidence is overwhelming that the prevailing beliefs have shifted dramatically in terms of our attitudes toward racial interactions.

In short, the times they have changed and dramatically so.
Click to expand...

Your condescension is not appreciated, but some of the content of your post is.

In any case, I did not anywhere state or imply that people are not influenced by the time in which they live, you would do well to stop making incorrect assumptions or putting words in my mouth.

You have stated what I guess I have been doing a poor job of getting to, times have changed and to believe the people from an older generation cannot at the very least keep these horrible opinions/thoughts/attitudes to themselves is what I am struggling with. That they feel comfortable enough to share them in public with others in 2014. It's disgusting.
 
K

Keri

Member
TheOMan said:
You have stated what I guess I have been doing a poor job of getting to, times have changed and to believe the people from an older generation cannot at the very least keep these horrible opinions/thoughts/attitudes to themselves is what I am struggling with. That they feel comfortable enough to share them in public with others in 2014. It's disgusting.
Click to expand...

Old people feel comfortable saying all kinds of things in public, that most keep to themselves. It's partly because they are close to dying and they don't care anymore and partly because they're so disconnected from modern culture, they don't understand what is and isn't acceptable anymore. Personally, I think its silly to waste time worrying about it, because their time for affecting culture and society has passed. (I just realized how harsh this sounds. Sorry senior-citizens! I still think you have cool stories and I can't wait to blatantly insult people, worry free, when I'm your age! I plan on telling kids their ideas are dumb, left and right).
 
O

Opiate

Member
TheOMan said:
Your condescension is not appreciated, but some of the content of your post is.

In any case, I did not anywhere state or imply that people are not influenced by the time in which they live, you would do well to stop making incorrect assumptions or putting words in my mouth.

You have stated what I guess I have been doing a poor job of getting to, times have changed and to believe the people from an older generation cannot at the very least keep these horrible opinions/thoughts/attitudes to themselves is what I am struggling with. That they feel comfortable enough to share them in public with others in 2014. It's disgusting.
Click to expand...

It's not as if this is a property unique to today's old people -- every generation ages and becomes the old fuddy duddies who stand in the way of social progress. Our generation will almost certainly be the same; we'll be fine with white people marrying black people, but we just can't get behind people marrying their clones, or two men marrying one woman, or whatever the social movements are of 2060.

So we have two options; either we can decide that old people, as a general rule, are bad; or we can recognize this as a recurring, persistent part of human nature as we age. I think the latter allows for more understanding and empathy, but you can make a case for the former. It is certainly the best argument I can give for why humans should never be allowed to live 200 years or 300 years or indefinitely; we will likely bring social progress to a standstill, as social progress is almost always a function of old people dying off to make way for the new. Some day, our generation will be those old people, and the young people of 2060 or 2070 will be eagerly anticipating our deaths.
 
H

HolyBaikal

Banned
It would be hard to date someone who has separatist beliefs. But then again, someone who has separatist beliefs might not date me...

I could date someone who has a fetish for me racially. I can empathize with what their feelings are like. As long as they treat me as an individual, and it isn't all about stereotypes. And I guess there would be someone who is nationalist in some ways, but nice enough to

It might be fun to date like a Korean person who is really into Neofolk and Martial Industrial. Some people like that can be really too into genes and things. I guess I could love someone like that. Maybe...

Learning about Japan and other places in Asia like South Korea, has showed me there are some really sadly racist people over there. There are even white nationalist people who believe they're honorary Aryans.

It would be hard to look past such flaws, but I don't know what could happen...
 
S

Sparkedglory

Member
Melkr_ said:
Of course it is not the same thing, what I meant is that you don't fight fire with fire.

People with racists/bigoted views give themselves the permission to avoid being empathic. If you don't try to be empathic with close people who have narrow worldviews, then a similar mistake is committed.
Click to expand...
If it were my family, I would continually call them out. I would let them know that it's not appreciated. Though I wouldn't try to push them away.
 
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