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Simon Pegg- new Trek script started from scratch, features more "Frontierism"

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Blader

Member
I enjoyed both films to be honest, but was bothered by Into Darkness visibly reusing the exact same conceptual framework as the first film: A mysterious villain who has a beef with Earth. A giant super ship that totally outguns our heroes. Kirk sneaks onto the super ship to disrupt things from the inside.

I actually liked Into Darkness more than the '09 movie, but what really annoyed me about it was the first 15 minutes' one-step-back, one-step-forward for Kirk.
He's demoted, Pike is killed, and then suddenly promoted back to Captain again. What was the point of all that?
 
Star Trek Into Darkness was pretty terrible.

That said, I definitely enjoyed the first reboot. Unlike with several other Trek films, however, I do not enjoy re-watching it at all. Maybe this third film will have a bit of meat to it.
My opinion is the same. STID really sucked because they whitewashed Khan, Carol Marcus was nothing but a T&A set piece, they did nothing interesting with the Klingons, and they wouldn't let go of Earth.


Oh and the Reactor Core scene was completely laughable in a bad way and tarnished the original, emotional scene from WOK.


It doesn't help that I never really liked the TOS Era. Spock centered stuff was great, but I've always considered TNG to be the pinnacle of Trek.
 

Lunar15

Member
As long as we move away from Orci's horrible concept of "Destiny" and characters only becoming who they are because that's who they're supposed to be.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Is there any links to the original maligned script?

And for what it's worth, Into Darkness was alright. Not good, not terrible. Just one of those "didn't feel like my money's wasted, and if I ever see it while skipping through channels I'll watch it if nothing else is on" movies.

That said, there's significantly more to Star Trek than "bad guy with overpowered ship needs to be stopped before destroying the Earth/Enterprise" stories. Because of the end of Into Darkness, where Kirk calls for a more peaceful Starfleet, I'm hopeful that follow-up movies will continue this path. Or at the very least organise a big action story across two or three movies to provide it with a buildup where you can at least appreciate it.

My wife absolutely loved it. In order to help her "get" most of the references, I made her watch Wrath of Khan when we got home. She far preferred Into Darkness and while I still prefer WOK, there's definitely some heavy, heavy use of prescription strength rose-tinted-glasses when people compare the two films.

My girlfriend prefers Alien Resurrection to Aliens. I nearly left her there and then. :p

And its a telling sign when people don't appreciate a slow buildup and payoff in movies. Wrath of Khan was a movie about Kirk's mid-life crisis with a submarine movie in space as a b-plot, Into Darkness was a pewpewpewlotsofaction movie with a really fucking generic human story regarding saving your comrades that was relegated to pure background noise. But both are "sci-fi" so everyone goes into them expecting nothing but action.
 
I actually liked Into Darkness more than the '09 movie, but what really annoyed me about it was the first 15 minutes' one-step-back, one-step-forward for Kirk.
He's demoted, Pike is killed, and then suddenly promoted back to Captain again. What was the point of all that?
Marcus was using Kirk.
 

Effect

Member
I have hope for this new film.

I didn't hate Into Darkness completely. My issues with it ultimately was that it was trying to be clever on several front and it simply wasn't. The crap with Kahn should have been handled differently and ultimately wasn't the most interesting part of the film for me.
Section 31]
was and has always been interesting since it was introduced into the Trek universe in Deep Space Nine. You could arguably retcon them into An Undiscovered Country as well. It's a call back to how corrupt the Federation and Starfleet can actually be if certain people get into power. A nice contrast to what the mission statement is, suppose to be, Kirk and all other main cast members. How hypocritical it can be. Yeah the Kahn story was apart of that but it all could have been handled better.

What I did hate about Into Darkness was the magic blood crap at the end. I know they set it up but it bothers me. Flipping the Kirk/Spock scene was good but even as it happen I knew they wouldn't go through with it so early. The end of Wrath of Kahn works so well because of all the build up with their relationship and for the characters in the TV series.

As for Star Trek Nemesis. I actually enjoy that film. It has it's issues of course. All the TNG films do outside of First Contact. The battle at the end is one of my favorites and it has Tom Hardy. I wish it had done better though as being the final outing for the Next Generation crew. I will say it's no way better then the reboot film though. I do have more of a connection to it though because of the cast.
 

Cheebo

Banned
There is no way anyone with a straight face can call Nemesis (or Insurrection or Final Frontier for that matter) a better film than Trek 09. That film was one hell of a well done blockbuster. The intro sequence with Kirks father was better than anything in those 3 films.

Into Darkness was another story.
 
And it’s a story about frontierism and adventure and optimism and fun, and that’s where we want to take it, you know. Where no man has gone before – where no one has gone before, sensibly corrected for a slighter more enlightened generation. But yeah, that’s the mood at the moment.

This is really where "Into Darkness" should have gone as opposed to...into DARKNESS. I remember hearing that title and going "Why are we going THERE? Besides the fact that going ANYWHERE in Star Trek is going 'into darkness' because space is fuckin' dark. But I mean - a "dark" sequel seems to be unneccessary considering where this first movie ended."

It really does seem like everything about Into Darkness started from the premise "we can't NOT do Khan," and then they just worked a story from there. I don't know if that's how it actually went down though.
 
Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?

Much like Shatner's screaming "Khaaaaaaaaan" - that line isn't celebrated for championed because it was good, or well delivered, or even impactful in the moment. It's because it's a block of cheese that never not sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud.
 

Sephzilla

Member
There is no way anyone with a straight face can call Nemesis (or Insurrection or Final Frontier for that matter) a better film than Trek 09. That film was one hell of a well done blockbuster. The intro sequence with Kirks father was better than anything in those 3 films.

Into Darkness was another story.

I would subjectively say Trek 09 was better than 3, 4, 5, Generations, Insurrection, and Nemesis. I'm prepared for the Trekkies to eat me alive for not liking 4.
 

zychi

Banned
It's funny that so many fans didn't like Into Darkness, but it's basically Guardians of the Galaxy with out the crazy aliens. The plot is pretty much the same if you take out the origin story at the beginning.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Much like Shatner's screaming "Khaaaaaaaaan" - that line isn't celebrated for championed because it was good, or well delivered, or even impactful in the moment. It's because it's a block of cheese that never not sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud.
No way, it's the turning point where Kirk and Spock deduce the true reality of the entity, breaking the illusion for everyone and undermining its whole scheme to escape its prison.

Kirk's father was just boring cliche sacrifice.
 

Syriel

Member
People hated Into Darkness? Huh.

All for Pegg writing 3 though.

Perhaps not hate, but certainly disappointment.

Star Trek '09 was a great reboot. It may not have pleased the extreme hardcore purists, but for most fans (and non-fans) it was a great way to hit the beats of the franchise and pull in new viewers without anyone feeling like they missed out on important bits.

Into Darkness was "oh shit, we have no ideas, so, um, let's try to remake TWOK." And then they did it badly.

New franchise. New actors. Give us some new stories.
 
Into Darkness was "oh shit, we have no ideas, so, um, let's try to remake TWOK." And then they did it badly.

This comes up pretty frequently, but they didn't remake Wrath of Khan at all. They used one of the moments from Wrath of Khan for part of their climax, but the buildup to that moment, and the purpose in using that moment, and what follows AFTER that moment, is completely different, and in service of a completely different story.

No way, it's the turning point where Kirk and Spock deduce the true reality of the entity

And that "turning point" is a badly delivered line near the end of a shitpoor movie that - even IF the budget hadn't been yanked out from beneath Shatner's feet - still wouldn't have worked because Shatner had no real sense of the story, and no real skill at directing.

It was a pointless, vapid, vanity project that is pretty easily the worst Star Trek movie. And again - nobody celebrates that line because it's awesome. They celebrate it because it's Shatner being a doofy, quotable jackass.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
It's funny that so many fans didn't like Into Darkness, but it's basically Guardians of the Galaxy with out the crazy aliens. The plot is pretty much the same if you take out the origin story at the beginning.

Star Trek isn't Guardians of the Galaxy, that's the problem. That's Star Wars territory. It should be 60% intellectual and 40% action, instead these reboots are just 100% dumb.

I enjoy them in the theater, but the more I think about them afterwards they just feel like missed opportunities.
 

benjipwns

Banned
The problem with Into Darkness' Khan is that he has no beef with Kirk like classic Khan or anyone else...except THE OTHER BAD GUY.

New Khan's never a serious threat, he falls for obvious bluffs and setups multiple times, the only evidence of his ruthlessness is Old Spock saying so and he helps out for half the film and mainly just wants his "family" back.

Old Khan's strength wasn't his physical strength but that he made Kirk struggle to stay one step ahead which Kirk basically fails at in both encounters. The first thing Khan does in Space Seed is set out to learn how to take over the ship.

And again - nobody celebrates that line because it's awesome. They celebrate it because it's Shatner being a doofy, quotable jackass.
I disagree, it's the definitive intellectual question of the 20th century.
 
Old Khan's strength wasn't his physical strength but that he made Kirk struggle to stay one step ahead which Kirk basically fails at in both encounters. The first thing Khan does in Space Seed is set out to learn how to take over the ship.

Khan doesn't really have a beef with Kirk specifically at any point in Space Seed. He just wants the ship (and McGivers). And his physical strength was a pretty big deal in that episode, too.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Hmm, you could be right, might have changed since this is from two months ago: http://screenrant.com/star-trek-3-2016-casting-bryan-cranston-filming-locations/

Really? I thought I read Pegg had to deliver the script for May.

I'm not sure why a May script delivery date means they can't start shooting in April. It's a $999999999999999 budgeted international box office CG-driven action flick. Why do they need a script? Quantum of Solace didn't have one. The kind of people who actually believe this could possibly be a good movie certainly don't need plot coherence, characterization, or dialogue. Just film Chris Pine saying wisecracks while blowing stuff up, it'll work out in the end.
 

Cheebo

Banned
I would subjectively say Trek 09 was better than 3, 4, 5, Generations, Insurrection, and Nemesis. I'm prepared for the Trekkies to eat me alive for not liking 4.
Ranking time!

I go with:
1. Wrath of Khan
2. Voyage Home
3. Undiscovered Country
4. First Contact
5. Star Trek '09
6. Search for Spock
7. Motion Picture
8. Generations
9. Into Darkness
10. Final Frontier
11. Nemesis
12. Insurrection
 

Sephzilla

Member
Ranking time!

I go with:
1. Wrath of Khan
2. Voyage Home
3. Undiscovered Country
4. First Contact
5. Star Trek '09
6. Search for Spock
7. Motion Picture
8. Generations
9. Into Darkness
10. Final Frontier
11. Nemesis
12. Insurrection

  1. Wrath of Khan
  2. Undiscovered Country
  3. First Contact
  4. Star Trek '09
  5. Motion Picture
  6. Voyage Home
  7. Search For Spock
  8. Generations
  9. Into Darkness
  10. Final Frontier
  11. Insurrection
  12. Nemesis
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
It's funny that so many fans didn't like Into Darkness, but it's basically Guardians of the Galaxy with out the crazy aliens. The plot is pretty much the same if you take out the origin story at the beginning.

This is kind of like saying "it's funny that so many fans don't like Resistance 2, but it's basically Call of Duty 4 with some crazy aliens." They're two different franchises, with two different audiences, and a history of doing things differently. And when one of those franchises changes to attract a bigger crowd, it normally backfires and alienates the core audience.

Khan doesn't really have a beef with Kirk specifically at any point in Space Seed. He just wants the ship (and McGivers). And his physical strength was a pretty big deal in that episode, too.

Khan's beef with Kirk is a brilliant deconstruction of Star Trek.

You know, how they faced new challenges every week and few things - if any - had any bearing on the next episode. Well, here's some dude that got mighty pissed off because of that ignorance. He expected Kirk to come and check on them and to help them after Ceti Alpha 6 blew up, but Kirk was out somewhere on his next adventure of the week.

Ranking time!

Oh christ, not again!

1. Undiscovered Country.
2. Wrath of Khan.
3. First Contact.
4. Search for Spock
5. The Slow-Motion Picture.
6. Voyage Home.
7. Insurrection.
8. Reboot.
9. Into Darkness.
10. Generations.
11. Final Frontier.
12. Nemesis.
 
Khan's beef with Kirk is a brilliant deconstruction of Star Trek.

You know, how they faced new challenges every week and few things - if any - had any bearing on the next episode. Well, here's some dude that got mighty pissed off because of that ignorance. He expected Kirk to come and check on them and to help them after Ceti Alpha 6 blew up, but Kirk was out somewhere on his next adventure of the week.

Yeah, that's actually one of my favorite aspects of Wrath of Khan.

That and the fact it's literally a direct sequel to a single episode of a long-since canceled television show. People used to marvel at the fact X-files or Firefly ever got movies. Star Trek followed up The Motion Picture with a sequel not to the previous movie, but to a one-shot episode of television 15 years prior. That's kinda nuts.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Khan's beef with Kirk is a brilliant deconstruction of Star Trek.

You know, how they faced new challenges every week and few things - if any - had any bearing on the next episode. Well, here's some dude that got mighty pissed off because of that ignorance. He expected Kirk to come and check on them and to help them after Ceti Alpha 6 blew up, but Kirk was out somewhere on his next adventure of the week.

I love this post. Possibly my favorite thing about Wrath of Khan is that Khan has a fairly legitimate beef with Kirk, so it's not exactly a case of good vs evil.
 

benjipwns

Banned
And The Wrath of Khan revitalized the franchise, which led to TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, all the films. All because Harve Bennett watched all the TOS episodes and decided Khan was the best possible villain from them.
 

Cheebo

Banned
I love how Khan also acted as one big fuck you to Kirk. It really embraced his character as a flawed hero. Took his arrogance and huge ego he had and belief he could get out of any jam and let it it all come back to bite him in the ass and cause his world to crumble around him.


Nicholas Meyer basically took the percieved faults of Shatner himself as a person and merged them with the Kirk character to turn the character from a Buck Rogers like super hero from TOS + TMP into an actual real human being. It was brilliantly done.
 

Abounder

Banned
Are they still trying to get Shatner or was that just hubbub?

Anyway love the rebooted Trek; day 1 for Pegg's script.
 

benjipwns

Banned
One of my favorite parts in The Wrath of Khan is when Kirk has to get out and put on his glasses in front of the bridge crew, he hesitates while looking at the bridge and says "damn" before putting them on.
 
Yeah, that's actually one of my favorite aspects of Wrath of Khan.

That and the fact it's literally a direct sequel to a single episode of a long-since canceled television show. People used to marvel at the fact X-files or Firefly ever got movies. Star Trek followed up The Motion Picture with a sequel not to the previous movie, but to a one-shot episode of television 15 years prior. That's kinda nuts.

I think that's really the way to do it right. WoK did such a good job at establishing the movie as its own thing, it didn't require any viewing or knowledge of that 15 year old episode. Contrast this with the first X-Files movie, which made absolutely no sense and came off as incomprehensible if you hadn't been following the series mythology hardcore at that point. Nicholas Meyer sat down and marathoned the entire TOS run, but he did it so that he could make a movie that the audience wouldn't have to.

You watch the movie and it's so clearly not trying to call back to the episode the way that a lot of clumsy movies do these days. There isn't Marla McGivers showcased in a way to ask the audience "Remember me?" Khan isn't looking ruefully at a space wrench, evoking the defeat at the hands of Kirk the first time. They aren't even dressed at all like the way they were in Space Seed, they're outfitted in these crazy Mad Max bum outfits that are wholly new. They're simply what Khan and his followers would've had to have come up with to survive in their new harsh environment. There's a consistent internal logic there. The movie really goes out of its way to expand on and extrapolate what might have occurred 15 years down the line, without giving regard for callbacks and George Lucas "poetry rhyming." The movie just stands on its own two feet. It doesn't rely on the past. It brings in new story ideas for sci-fi fans, like the notion of a Genesis Device. It creates a whole new history for Kirk (Carol Marcus). And it even has the villain commanding a smaller, weaker ship. Holy shit, such a thing would be unthinkable nowadays. Abrams would die from shock, I think.

It's one of those films that goes and does everything right.

EDIT: One of the little touches that I really like is in the ending, when the Reliant's warp nacelle gets blown off. Instead of using some other form of visual effect that would've ended up looking dated, they went and did basic animation work to show a trail of sparks emitting from the nacelle strut. It looks like the sort of effect you'd see in a classic Disney animated film, because that's what it is. And so it ends up with this incandescent, ethereal look that's fantastical in a really unique way and pops off the screen.
 

Tookay

Member
One thing I really like about TWOK is that it could basically be an old naval warfare novel if you really boiled it down. There's a cat and mouse game between two captains with different skill sets and they trade blows against each other.

Meanwhile in reboot-verse, the Enterprise gets pummeled to death every movie and the heroes have to pull out some trick to win. It's sort of lame.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
I love this post. Possibly my favorite thing about Wrath of Khan is that Khan has a fairly legitimate beef with Kirk, so it's not exactly a case of good vs evil.

I love how Khan also acted as one big fuck you to Kirk. It really embraced his character as a flawed hero. Took his arrogance and huge ego he had and belief he could get out of any jam and let it it all come back to bite him in the ass and cause his world to crumble around him.

Nicholas Meyer basically took the percieved faults of Shatner himself as a person and merged them with the Kirk character to turn the character from a Buck Rogers like super hero from TOS + TMP into an actual real human being. It was brilliantly done.

Here's another thing about Wrath of Khan.

The "wrath" part of the title, meaning the Reliant shooting up the Enterprise and becoming a submarine movie in space is the B plot.

The A plot in Wrath of Khan is a human story of ageing, and responding to the consequences of growing older. As in: getting a job, getting married, having kids, retiring gracefully, and then dying.

Kirk rejects all of this. He still sees himself as a swashbuckling hero that can never fail, with the command of a mighty starship and a girl in every port.

Khan didn't reject this. He had a home, a wife, and I believe that Joachim was his son (either biological, fostered or groomed to be an heir). He was set for life on his new world of Ceti Alpha 5.

Kirk struggled to retire. His ship was taken from him and he wants it back.

Khan couldn't retire. His home was destroyed, no help arrived, and he wants revenge.

Kirk embraced his son as his own late into the movie and used it as extra motivation to survive. Khan saw his son die and it resolved his will to kill Kirk by any means necessary.

Spock's death sealed the whole death part. And in doing so, brought about literal new life, and Kirk essentially rejecting his fate again - as he now feels young again.

This is combined with the whole meta commentary on this being the latest incarnation - and possibly the death of - the Star Trek franchise. It had followed this path from the series, to the movie, and now it was old too. And just like with Kirk, it felt young again.

It's late where I am so my brain's a bit fuzzy. Hopefully you can see what I mean. There's the other elements with Scotty's nephew and stuff that feeds into this human story. But generally it's a great movie on so many levels.

I feel that The Undiscovered Country is a slightly better film, as it provided complete and utter closure for both the Original Series and the era in which that series was inspired by.
 

zychi

Banned
This is kind of like saying "it's funny that so many fans don't like Resistance 2, but it's basically Call of Duty 4 with some crazy aliens." They're two different franchises, with two different audiences, and a history of doing things differently. And when one of those franchises changes to attract a bigger crowd, it normally backfires and alienates the core audience.

Nah, because the "core" audience will be back for the next movie, and the next. Just like Star Wars' core fans will be in line day 1 for Episode 7, like they were for Episode 2 and 3 after denouncing the prequels.

These JJ movies brought in people like me who never watched an episode of Star Trek until after the rebooted movie with Pine. You're not going to get a TNG style episode in a movie, not with these millions of dollars being thrown at the franchise. You're going to get Simon Pegg writing a 4 hour script that turns into a too long movie like Hot Fuzz and Paul. Simon is a funny dude and a decent comedy actor, but I have very little faith in this new movie being anything he's selling. It'll be 30 minutes too long and not what the "core" fans are wanting.
 
Meanwhile in reboot-verse, the Enterprise gets pummeled to death every movie and the heroes have to pull out some trick to win. It's sort of lame.

Wrath of Khan: Enterprise getting pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick, they win.
Search for Spock: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Kirk pulls a trick, Enterprise dies.
Undiscovered Country: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick & Sulu rides to the rescue.
Generations: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Troi crashes the ship
 

Tookay

Member
Wrath of Khan: Enterprise getting pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick, they win.
Search for Spock: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Kirk pulls a trick, Enterprise dies.
Undiscovered Country: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick & Sulu rides to the rescue.
Generations: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Troi crashes the ship
I don't really think that TWOK qualifies as a trick. They win the actual combat after several slugouts by out-manuevering their opponent and realizing his limitations (thinking spatially). And that's only after each side trades small victories and defeats along the way. It's Khan who pulls a trick by activating a super weapon afterward and Spock saves the day but that's long after the actual fight is over.

And I wasn't even commenting on the other original movies. I'm just citing something I liked about TWOK.
 
And I wasn't even commenting on the other original movies which I think leaned too much on the trick stuff too. I'm just citing something I liked about TWOK.

I know, I'm just trying to counter the idea that the reboot is somehow deviating all that sharply from the movies that preceded it.
 

benjipwns

Banned
One thing I really like about TWOK is that it could basically be an old naval warfare novel if you really boiled it down. There's a cat and mouse game between two captains with different skill sets and they trade blows against each other.

Meanwhile in reboot-verse, the Enterprise gets pummeled to death every movie and the heroes have to pull out some trick to win. It's sort of lame.
And they never meet in person.

I think Chekov is the only guy in the entire movie to see both Khan and the interior of the Enterprise in person.
 
Wrath of Khan: Enterprise getting pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick, they win.
Search for Spock: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Kirk pulls a trick, Enterprise dies.
Undiscovered Country: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Spock pulls a trick & Sulu rides to the rescue.
Generations: Enterprise gets pummeled to death, Troi crashes the ship

I think the difference is, at least in II and III, the Enterprise gets to strut her stuff a little bit and show off what she can do. II at the end, and III right before the automation system fails.

Also, the circumstances matter. In II, the Enteprise gets pummeled because Kirk's caught off guard by Khan's surprise ambush. No shields. In III, she's pummeled, because she's still damaged from WoK, and there's only a crew of 5 people aboard. Again, no shields. There's extenuating circumstances.

I'm not gonna defend Generations, cause that was a travesty.

In the Abrams two reboot films, the Enterprise is at full strength and presumably has full shields. Yet we never see anything interesting but just a mindless barrage of neon bolts everywhere and the Enterprise gets molly whopped in a matter of seconds. This is terribly forgettable, lacks all tension, AND the Enterprise looks bad.

I feel that The Undiscovered Country is a slightly better film, as it provided complete and utter closure for both the Original Series and the era in which that series was inspired by.

It's definitely a great swansong for the crew. But I think unlike WoK, TUC does sag in the middle. The Rura Penthe scenes, along with the whodunnit on the ship, are a bit too jokey and not all that tight for me, which stands out because the first act of the movie is this deadly earnest SPACE DIPLOMACY. The tone for WoK is much more consistent.

I'd go WoK, TUC, TSFS for the top of the list.
 

Cheebo

Banned
It's definitely a great swansong for the crew. But I think unlike WoK, TUC does sag in the middle. The Rura Penthe scenes, along with the whodunnit on the ship, are a bit too jokey and not all that tight for me, which stands out because the first act of the movie is this deadly earnest SPACE DIPLOMACY. The tone for WoK is much more consistent.

I'd go WoK, TUC, TSFS for the top of the list.

I love the whodunnit middle of TUC. Really great Spock material. Meyer has two franchises he loves, Horatio Hornblower and Sherlock Holmes. TWOK was heavily inspired by Hornblower. And Sherlock Holmes for TUC.
 
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