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NIBRIS to Capcom: "Stop whining, baby."

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A

AceBandage

Banned
Die Squirrel Die said:
That's because you know shit. I don't mean that disrespectfully, because all of us here are in the same boat. The amount of data that is made publically available is a tiny fraction of what would be needed to even start making claims like that.

Without solid proof of production budgets, marketing budgets, sales revenue etc. what you, I or anybody else believes a game to have cost is completely meaningless, because it is just a wild stab in the dark.
Click to expand...


I know what I've played. I also know what teams have made these Wii games, and they aren't the same as the teams that are making the big budget PS3/360 games.
In fact, they're usually the teams that are used to port cellphone games to the DS.

Sadist said:
Seriously, I think we should stop doing this. The situation won't change. Every now and then play a good third party game that was accidently released. That's it.
Click to expand...


Honestly, at this point I don't care about the situation changing. I just want Ubisoft, Capcom, ect to admit that they completely fucked up on the Wii.
 
V

Vinci

Danish
Sadist said:
Seriously, I think we should stop doing this. The situation won't change. Every now and then play a good third party game that was accidently released. That's it.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's all I'm doing. Nice to have a PS3 too though. Helps fill in certain gaps. :D
 
W

wrowa

Member
Jacobi said:
It's not like they haven't tried
Click to expand...
Yeah, they developed some serious high-budget rail-shooters.

Too bad that the rail-shooter genre is a niche one. They should have thought about that before releasing a dozen of them and oversaturating the genre completely. Really too bad.
 
S

Sadist

Member
Vinci said:
Oh, that's all I'm doing. Nice to have a PS3 too though. Helps fill in certain gaps. :D
Click to expand...
Oh I believe you.

But still, this generation is the weirdest ever. Can't wait for thr next one!
 
V

Vinci

Danish
Why For? said:
Yes, with a but.

Not always. Sometimes good games DON'T sell. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that.
Click to expand...

True. If you target a niche market, you will sell niche numbers - regardless of how good your game is. Again though: This is still the developer's fault. If they budgeted something too high that is heading for a niche market, one in which they are not a genre king, they are inarguably doing something wrong.
 
S

Son of Godzilla

Banned
GuardianE said:
By Nintendo. But like I said, their games appeal to a wider audience because Mario is the face of the company. A housewife who knows nothing about games will still pick up Mario Kart to try out. It's comfortable and familiar for a non-gamer.
Click to expand...
I... don't know. On one hand obviously I agree that they've done a good job building up the Nintendo brand as it pertains to the Mario and Wii _ lines. On the other, they don't exactly censor themselves, there still quite a bit of stuff like Excitebugs and Metroid
and Disaster
that dilutes their name from that audience.
 
G

gcubed

Member
Capcom to Wiiware Dev...

"Who?"
brush.gif
 
J

justchris

Member
Jacobi said:
Vinci said:
So... the amount of money one invests in development is somehow indicative of quality or superiority rights?
Click to expand...
No, it's indicative of business know-how
Click to expand...

...so the few hundred thousand Nintendo spent on Brain Training and Brain Training 2 shows their massive lack of business know-how?
 
J

JudgeN

Member
AceBandage said:
I'd love an example of them trying, actually.
Because I can't think of a single game that Capcom, Ubisoft, Square or any third party that has released with a big budget on the Wii that hasn't sold well.
Click to expand...

O can it was suppose to be the game that tapped into the Wii unlocked FPS market, and it was buy a developer who actually gave a shit about the Wii. It had online multiplayer with tons of options and it was suppose to show 3rd parties that quality + advertisement = Wii sales. Need less to say to not what happened with The Conduit now was it? It shipped 300k world wide and feel off the map, then the GAF wii club tried to act like isn't wasn't suppose to sell good at all :lol

I'm sure you remember the The conduit hype train.

Besides why are people trying to act like DSC is shovelware game? Game seems to have a lot of work put into and I would consider it quality just like Deadspace: E which also bombed hard.
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
JudgeN said:
O can it was suppose to be the game that tapped into the Wii unlocked FPS market, and it was buy a developer who actually gave a shit about the Wii. It had online multiplayer with tons of options and it was suppose to show 3rd parties that quality + advertisement = Wii sales. Need less to say to not what happened with The Conduit now was it? It shipped 300k world wide and feel off the map, then the GAF wii club tried to act like isn't wasn't suppose to sell good at all :lol

I'm sure you remember the The conduit hype train.
Click to expand...


I do indeed remember the Conduit hype train.
I also remember that it was by a no body developer with a minuscule budget that got fairly poor scores.

Besides why are people trying to act like DSC is shovelware game? Game seems to have a lot of work put into and I would consider it quality just like Deadspace: E which also bombed hard.
Click to expand...


It was a good game, but it wasn't what anyone wanted. Wii owners are tired of these stupid light gun spin offs, as is evident by them failing to sell.
The initial reaction to both games was "WTF? More light gun games? No thanks." especially to Extraction.
 
J

Jacobi

Banned
justchris said:
...so the few hundred thousand Nintendo spent on Brain Training and Brain Training 2 shows their massive lack of business know-how?
Click to expand...
Eh, Nintendo had a lots of advertisement for those games
 
L

lsslave

Jew Gamer
Since we are on Capcom and the Wii (and btw to all those "Nibris" people the bloober guys actually called down Nibris in an interview and have shown actual assets of games)

Zack & Wiki -> Puzzle game, far too advanced for kids yet they went too cartooney to scare off the mature adults. Poor sales

Resident Evil 4 Wii -> Remake of a LAST GENERATION game that has already been ported once. Still sold insanely well, test game y'know?

We Love Golf -> Competing with Tiger Woods and making it cartooney didn't help...

Okami Wii -> The game sold sooooo well on the PS2 in the first place. This is a port that is worse than the original of a game that didn't do well on the PS2. Of course its the Wii's fault

Spyborgs -> Terrible name, sounds like a saturday morning cartoon but it doesn't have the license to attract the kids

Resident Evil Archives 1 & 0 -> 60 dollars for 2 gamecube ports?
Fuck you Capcom

MotoGP -> Yes... this will make millions

NeoPets -> Is this popular anymore?

Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles was an interesting one. A lot of people bought it because it was a rare rail shooter in a vastly untapped market and because Capcom made it sound like buying it Wii owners would get another mainline game like RE4 (of course not a port)

They backed out of that and with an overly saturated market of rail shooters the sequel didn't do well. God forbid Wii owners are tired of crap. I have all 3 systems, I have as many Wii games as any other system yet most are from Nintendo because we don't get ports and shitty games from them.

In terms of "big" titles selling, didn't Monster Hunter 3 do nearly a million in Japan so far? Oh my god, a mainline title being the best selling (non portable) version to date sounds terrible doesn't it?

This is why Wii owners aren't buying the crap, I would love for some great Wii games but I am not getting Dragon Age quality or Final Fantasy 13 quality games on it I am getting boring glitchy cheap games for the same price as the big blockbusters.


::::Edit::::

AceBandage said:
I do indeed remember the Conduit hype train.
I also remember that it was by a no body developer with a minuscule budget that got fairly poor scores.
Click to expand...

A game that failed to live to the hype and even the people who were fawning it were incredibly let down didn't sell well?

I didn't get to play it what with my inability to play the genre but a LOT of people were let down. They aced the controls, graphics amazing, but terrible art direction and plot and other elements failing didn't save it.
 
J

JudgeN

Member
AceBandage said:
I do indeed remember the Conduit hype train.
I also remember that it was by a no body developer with a minuscule budget that got fairly poor scores.
Click to expand...

What makes you think the casual market of the Wii knows anything who what developer makes what game? That doesn't matter and minuscule budget, they self funded the game for a long time, how do you know what its budget was?

Shit i'm hardcore and barely know shit about studio's who develop what game :lol
 
T

TunaLover

Member
lsslave said:
Zack & Wiki -> Puzzle game, far too advanced for kids yet they went too cartooney to scare off the mature adults. Poor sales
Click to expand...
If any, cartoon look and averall design was a big plus for me, but then again I'm fairly outside of the target demography, for everything =P
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
JudgeN said:
What makes you think the casual market of the Wii knows anything who what developer makes what game? That doesn't matter and minuscule budget, they self funded the game for a long time, how do you know what its budget was?
Click to expand...


Do you really think that a developer that makes shovelware has the kind of money that they can invest heavily into a single game?
The engine was developed over years on the PS2 and the assets were pretty low.
There's no way that they spent much on it.
And the casual Wii market that would buy a game like The Conduit know more about it than you think. If all they knew was that it was a shooter, then it would have sold a million like Red Steel or World at War.
 
CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
Relaxed Muscle said:
Bloober team? aren't those guys related to Nibris? :lol :lol :lol
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's kind of awesome to see how many people are taking this thread seriously when the guy saying this first came of notoriety for hooking up with The Sadness development group. I don't really like bagging on 'vaporware companies' because I understand what circumstances they come out from under and know how important smoke and mirrors are to getting anything done in real business, but on this topic specifically, leave it alone until you have something to say.

plufim said:
While I agree with their point, they're in no position to say so.

Bloober Team now have four games that they've never finished, with double bloob, bloober kart and Raid Over The River being simple DS games that any competant team could have completed in a year.
Click to expand...

If you go to their website, there are three additional games listed (and no mention of any of these DS games, even RotR, which may have been canned?) now on their portfolio plan. Yet even the puzzler isn't out. I'm not sure if these guys commented because they wanted spotlight again or if some journalist asked them because they were the only one with a M-rated game still in production on Wii who picked up the phone, but he's clearly not the guy who should be talking on the subject. Anybody else who has had tremendous success in the field, they'd be more than welcome to comment (if it really matters what they think of Capcom's French rep commenting on sales,) but I'm not sure those who have worked with WiiWare have a lot to say to refute these claims. Lit and maybe Konami's ReBirth games, those might fit, and I believe they did OK but none of them saw massive sales.
 
J

JudgeN

Member
Linkup said:
really? do tell
Click to expand...

I just told you, what more do you want? :lol

AceBandage said:
Do you really think that a developer that makes shovelware has the kind of money that they can invest heavily into a single game?
The engine was developed over years on the PS2 and the assets were pretty low.
There's no way that they spent much on it.
And the casual Wii market that would buy a game like The Conduit know more about it than you think. If all they knew was that it was a shooter, then it would have sold a million like Red Steel or World at War.
Click to expand...

Based of what Ive read on B3D that engine did way more then the PS2 could ever hope to doing but we will never reach an agreement on it :lol

So back to the developer who released no games but wants to tell a profitable company how to make money.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Jacobi said:
I haven't really been following the Wii market too close
Click to expand...
RE4 sold great considering it was the second port of the game in like two years. RE:UC also did pretty well in spite of being a rail shooter spin-off, because gamers still had good will for Capcom and the rail shooter genre hadn't yet reached (complete global) saturation at that point. This is also why House of the Dead 2 & 3 succeeded where Darkside Chronicles, Dead Space Extraction, and to a lesser extent HOTD: Overkill flopped like fish out of water. Okami and Dead Rising didn't perform particularly well but Capcom said they met their internal expectations at least.

Call of Duty has sold over a million pretty consistently between installments, which isn't terrible when you consider that World at War coasted off of the success of Modern Warfare, which didn't receive a Wii version until two months ago and was up against its far more highly hyped sequel on 360/PS3 which has smashed records, pwned noobs and brought our lord and savior Jesus Christ back to life and... Well it did pretty good is what I'm saying. COD3 on Wii outsold the PS3 version btw, as did Star Wars: The Force Unleashed.

No More Heroes with its "disappointing" sales of like 350-400k worldwide was Suda51's best selling game ever. In one month it outsold Killer7's LTD on GameCube and PS2 combined. Red Steel also sold over a million at launch. Sega's two mature balls-to-the-wall oh my god games Madworld and The Conduit sold decently but not spectacularly (which I think reflects their critical reception, anyway). Tales of Symphonia 2 which was crafted entirely from the assets of the first game sold on par with Tales of Vesperia on 360.

Sonic, Guitar Hero, Lego (insert successful franchise here), Shaun White, and Tiger Woods games all sell better on Wii than on other consoles but those don't count I guess, and neither does Boom Blox.

tl;dr There hasn't been a third party bomb on Wii that didn't deserve it for being a spin-off or a piece of shit or both. We should have seen RE4-2, Red Steel 2, Modern Warfare, etc. by 2008 at the latest. Third parties missed the boat.
 
J

Jacobi

Banned
justchris said:
Which proves your theory that budget is directly correlated to business sense, how?
Click to expand...
My theory? :lol
If you invest lots of money and don't go bankrupt, this pretty much proves you have a business sense, doesn't it?
 
L

lsslave

Jew Gamer
TunaLover said:
If any, cartoon look and averall design was a big plus for me, but then again I'm fairly outside of the target demography, for everything =P
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the cartoon aesthetic. I enjoy Darksider's comic book design, Valkyria Chronicles "hand drawn" look, etc.

I meant more in terms of its approach, it looked very childish (including Wiki) and yet was more of an adult game overall.

Making an all ages game (a'la Mario) is different than a childish game (Z&W) that is meant for more advanced players and I think that is where it floundered.
 
M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Die Squirrel Die said:
That's because you know shit. I don't mean that disrespectfully, because all of us here are in the same boat. The amount of data that is made publically available is a tiny fraction of what would be needed to even start making claims like that.

Without solid proof of production budgets, marketing budgets, sales revenue etc. what you, I or anybody else believes a game to have cost is completely meaningless, because it is just a wild stab in the dark.
Click to expand...

I agree with this post.

There are so pretty wild assumptions in these sort of threads about what does or does not work, and what would or would not work with respect to sales on Wii. Certainly there is a lack of understanding that publishers have access to way more detailed data and forecasts than the average punter ever sees. Not to mention that while they may cite one or two failed Wii game examples in a press statement or interview, that doesn't mean their entire decisions were made on the basis of those titles alone.

Looking at the full NPD database alone would probably change the opinion of a lot of people on a lot of topics.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
"Our logic is far simpler: if the game doesn't sell, we did something wrong."
Click to expand...

man I can't wait for all the internalizing Bloober is about to do. So many quality games sell like shit, it's gonna be hilarious!
 
Clear

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I think maybe Bloober would have a different point of view if they had created/published Okami... A classic case of a good game that just didn't sell well.

Well on PS2 anyway... Which just goes to prove that good game+big userbase doesn't automatically equal profit.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Clear said:
I think maybe Bloober would have a different point of view if they had created/published Okami... A classic case of a good game that just didn't sell well.

Well on PS2 anyway... Which just goes to prove that good game+big userbase doesn't automatically equal profit.
Click to expand...

he'd probably say it totally wasn't marketed right, or it was too niche!

But then this is a roundabout way of saying smaller devs shouldn't try or niche titles shouldn't be developed because they have a slim chance of success!

So much quality sells like shit, even when marketed well. And so much absolute garbage sells extremely well. There is no logic to the market.
 
J

justchris

Member
Jacobi said:
My theory? :lol
If you invest lots of money and don't go bankrupt, this pretty much proves you have a business sense, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

I admit, it was optimistic to refer to it as a theory rather than a random unfounded comment, but I try to be generous at the start of the conversation.

And rather than being an ass (mostly because I don't have the time for it), I'm just going to point out that, if you invest a small amount of money and consistently make a profit, that is more proof of business sense than simply 'not going bankrupt'.

And while Capcom is doing well, you can list just about any other developer investing millions and while they are not going bankrupt, they are posting losses quarter after quarter. So your unfounded comment, while applying quite accurately to Capcom, is not universally true.
 
L

lsslave

Jew Gamer
Amir0x said:
he'd probably say it totally wasn't marketed right, or it was too niche!

But then this is a roundabout way of saying smaller devs shouldn't try or niche titles shouldn't be developed because they have a slim chance of success!

So much quality sells like shit, even when marketed well. And so much absolute garbage sells extremely well. There is no logic to the market.
Click to expand...

There is clear logic in the market though Ami, look at the music industry.

Some of the most talented musicians in the world, genre defying and innovators, will NEVER find success of some of the most mediocre rap / cookie-cutter-pop acts.

And then on the rare occasion you will get one of these entities that just explodes. That great niche game that does gangbusters or that band that sees the success it deserves. This is the rarity though
 
F

Fredescu

Member
Mario said:
I agree with this post.

There are so pretty wild assumptions in these sort of threads about what does or does not work, and what would or would not work with respect to sales on Wii. Certainly there is a lack of understanding that publishers have access to way more detailed data and forecasts than the average punter ever sees. Not to mention that while they may cite one or two failed Wii game examples in a press statement or interview, that doesn't mean their entire decisions were made on the basis of those titles alone.

Looking at the full NPD database alone would probably change the opinion of a lot of people on a lot of topics.
Click to expand...
I do find it interesting that you guys have opted to go for Wii exclusivity for Rugby League 3. I'm sure you can't go into much detail, but would you be willing to give a little insight into that decision? Is something like that a much different market to the buyers of the typical Capcom blockbuster?
 
E

EDarkness

Member
"Our logic is far simpler: if the game doesn't sell, we did something wrong."
Click to expand...

I've been saying this for months now. It's not the consumers job to buy whatever devs give us, it's their job to make games we'll buy. If we don't buy their games, then it's their fault not ours. These days they try to make us feel guilty for not buying their games. Well, to them I say, "make games I want to play and I'll buy."
 
P

panda21

Member
why is anyone taking these guys seriously? cos they're doing so well with sadness. how many mine carts did they model in 4 years again?

they make vapourware, stole the LOST oceanic airlines logo for the supposed bloober team game

http://blooberteam.com/

this 'news' is probably part of a ruse to keep up the facade that they are actually a legitimate company.
 
J

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
Amir0x said:
he'd probably say it totally wasn't marketed right, or it was too niche!

But then this is a roundabout way of saying smaller devs shouldn't try or niche titles shouldn't be developed because they have a slim chance of success!

So much quality sells like shit, even when marketed well. And so much absolute garbage sells extremely well. There is no logic to the market.
Click to expand...
The logic of this market is actually extremely simple: products with perceived quality sell.
I'm not talking about actual quality, I'm talking about something the customers perceive as worthy of their money and time.
This applies to both overhyped/overly advertised AAA blockbusters and crappy tie-in/cartoon licenses, in the exact same way.
Most people don't buy games strictly because of its genre or publisher, they buy it because of the experience they perceive the game will provide them.
 
P

Palette Swap

Member
"Our logic is far simpler: if the game doesn't sell, we did something wrong."
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that's Capcom's logic too: their whole "bitching" is exactly about what they did wrong and shouldn't have done (in their opinion).

Not that I agree with their stance but it's pretty stupid to come out and say such a thing to imply entities bigger than Bloober aren't driven by the same logic.

Also, I can't wait for his excuse if his game bombs, he's asking for it.
 
E

EDarkness

Member
Mario said:
I agree with this post.

There are so pretty wild assumptions in these sort of threads about what does or does not work, and what would or would not work with respect to sales on Wii. Certainly there is a lack of understanding that publishers have access to way more detailed data and forecasts than the average punter ever sees. Not to mention that while they may cite one or two failed Wii game examples in a press statement or interview, that doesn't mean their entire decisions were made on the basis of those titles alone.

Looking at the full NPD database alone would probably change the opinion of a lot of people on a lot of topics.
Click to expand...

Mario, no offense, but come on man, we've been gaming for years and know what kind of games we like to play. Would anyone in their right mind pick up Transformers for the Wii? Or what about that awful Wolverine game? Those games would be expected to fail on the 360, so why would anyone expect them to do well on the Wii? Then you have games like Extraction where EA KNEW it was going to be a hard sell with the Wii audience from the beginning. Or what about Madden where they dumbed down the game so much people couldn't even recognize it on the Wii. The audience for those games are the same ones that always buys them. Crying foul about it later doesn't change the fact that they made a game that no one wanted to play.

Devs and publishers know what makes a game cool, yet they aren't making those games on the Wii. What do they expect to happen?

Also, we were hearing reports of devs not wanting to bring out "core" games on the Wii years ago, and I don't see there ever being a point where they greenlit a bunch of "core" games. So what data were they looking at?
 
L

Luigison

Member
"Our logic is far simpler: if the game doesn't sell, we did something wrong.".
Click to expand...
But the "something" wrong is not always making a bad game. Sometimes it's just releasing it at the wrong time or failing to advertise it properly.
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
arstal said:
Sometimes what you did wrong was putting it on the wrong platform.

You wouldn't put COPS on Nick Jr.
Click to expand...
That's not really what's happening though. It's more like you have COPS, it's successful so you decide to syndicate it. But first you stop and make it into a kid's cartoon about furry future police, then releasing it to the other networks to air in prime time.

The basic demographic isn't that different one network to the next, but if you keep making a kid's cartoon while you claim to be reaching out to basically the same audience you've already attracted on your primary network, you're going to be constantly disappointed.
 
J

Josh7289

Member
Luigison said:
But the "something" wrong is not always making a bad game. Sometimes it's just releasing it at the wrong time or failing to advertise it properly.
Click to expand...
Which is nonetheless doing something wrong.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Since it apparently bares repeating:

2a7j29s.jpg


As others have said, its Nibris. They even have the same "partners" behind their "companies". So of course they don't have to worry about sales because THEY AREN'T MAKING GAMES. Seriously, this is just another attention seeking gimmick by the Sadness guys and, for some idiotic reason, gaming journalism is giving them the time of day. Blooberteam is just hopping on this particular controversy's bandwagon so that people like AceBandage will gleefully post it on forums like this. Its just sad.
 
L

legend166

Member
Well damn, you have you to release a game to criticise other developers now?


Welp, that's it NeoGAF. Time to shut up shop. We've all had a good run, really.


Edit: Crap, it's nibiris? I TAKE BACK MY SARCASTIC COMMENT. Continue with the mocking!
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
grandjedi6 said:
Since it apparently bares repeating:

2a7j29s.jpg


As others have said, its Nibris. They even have the same "partners" behind their "companies". So of course they don't have to worry about sales because THEY AREN'T MAKING GAMES. Seriously, this is just another attention seeking gimmick by the Sadness guys and, for some idiotic reason, gaming journalism is giving them the time of day. Blooberteam is just hopping on this particular controversy's bandwagon so that people like AceBandage will gleefully post it on forums like this. Its just sad.
Click to expand...


Then doesn't it just make it worse that a team that isn't making games knows more about how the industry actually works than Capcom does?
 
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