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excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

remist said:
"White America" is only a coherent concept when talking about generalities and statistics. It doesn't make any sense to extend your generalizations of white america into individual interactions with people and conclude that we should just give up on conversations.

I can't even talk about systemic issues without some of my fellow white people going "well not me". Those hypothetical white folk statements in the article are almost verbatim things that get said again and again in every cop shooting thread, every BLM protesting thread here. Fuck look at that thread about university housing: it's just full of MLK would be sad and this is segregation. Black folk are in effect expected to have this "conversation" 24/7 whenever white folk want it, and if they want a space that doesn't allow white folk to demand the "conversation" well then that's segregation and racist against white people.

To some white folk the "conversation" might be their first time ever having it but to black folk it's Tuesday. I'm white and I find the merry-go-round "conversation" with other white folk exhausting it's a million times more so for black folk who actually have to live this shit.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

America's obsession with race is absolutely insane. On all sides. I understand that there are some very significant reasons for this but it still blows my mind how you just cannot shake it off as a social issue that underpins almost everything.

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

remist said:
The article makes it pretty clear he's advocating disengaging from contentious racial coversations with white people in general, regardless of the context. Its a fatalistic view that conversation will never make progress.

He's advocating that individual black folk ought to be able to opt to do that if it will improve their own mental health

Billy_Pilgrim said:
America's obsession with race is absolutely insane. On all sides. I understand that there are some very significant reasons for this but it still blows my mind how you just cannot shake it off as a social issue that underpins almost everything.

On all sides?

What the fuck.

Where you from?

Not · Sep 7, 2016

It took around four years of social justice reaching the mainstream for white people to be the most oppressed group.

Impressive stuff.

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

Apoc87 said:
As a token white kid in a couple of inner city elementary/middle schools, i was subject to some pretty heinous bullying/racism.

So yes, it goes both ways. All lives matter.

yet somehow you persevered, and found the courage to dig deep & produce a post so garbage it shall surely grace landfills for generations to come #hero

echoshifting said:
I can't disagree. This is already a very frustrating thread.

as a card-carrying member of the CAC delegation, we're kinda used to bringing this fuckery

Skilletor said:
lol @ "token" white kid.

for real, the self-awareness is something there

Ponn said:
Good try OP but as soon you have "White" and "Racist" in the topic the thread is done. The implication of white people being racist is always going to be more important than the actual topic at hand. #whitepeoplesinsecurefeelings > #blacklivesmatter

it's why all lives matter type bullshit doesn't actually stand for anything but a kneejerk reaction to having privilege - however momentarily - checked. yeah, ya'll are dying in the streets, but what's that got to do with me

Not said:
It took around four years of social justice reaching the mainstream for white people to be the most oppressed group.

Impressive stuff.

i dunno, do you have exchanges with conservatives very often? ive been hearing this shit for about as long as some folks knew the term "affirmative action"

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
He's advocating that individual black folk ought to be able to opt to do that if it will improve their own mental health

On all sides?

What the fuck.

Where you from?

The North East of England.

And yes, all sides. It really does seem that every group in America is utterly obsessed with race. As I said I do understand that there are reasons for this.

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
The North East of England.

And yes, all sides. It really does seem that every group in America is utterly obsessed with race. As I said I do understand that there are reasons for this.

This is such nonsense.

Btw your country just literally voted to tank your own economy over race and xenophobia.

Glass houses, stones, etc...

remist · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
He's advocating that individual black folk ought to be able to opt to do that if it will improve their own mental health

If that's the extent if his argument, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. It just seems like hes making a stronger case than that.

DerekOfTheDykes · Sep 7, 2016

Nepenthe said:
Black people are not wells of infinite time and patience. We have to know when to bail, we have to know how to choose our battles, and we have to know when to rest. We are not responsible for every ignorant individual, and people are always inevitably left behind in the march of progress, which has been done even when a majority of people weren't on board with specific milestones and legislation. It is up to black individuals to choose when and when not to engage. At the end of the day, you have to take care of yourself and that includes your mental and emotional health.

Totally feel that, dude. It can be supremely frustrating to try and open people's eyes, and that's for ME. I imagine that it is far harder as someone with a far more personal stake in the game. As individuals, none of us can be expected to run on all cylinders all the time, and I'm sure it's far more draining for you than it is for me.

But as a group (whether you want to make that group "black people", "all people of color", or "all people who want to fight for equality") I feel like it's so important that the group as a whole be willing to engage. Every individual should only have to do as much as they think they can, but that's where that difference comes in between the individual and the group.

That's why I feel like outreach is so important... you're right, black people CAN'T be responsible for every ignorant white person. Be willing to engage us when you feel like you can, hoping that we will in turn do some of that work for you guys!

Like I said, maybe I'm just a naive young guy. But I feel like racial unity is part of what defines our side as being "in the right", and that doesn't mean you should have to bust your ass 24/7 to talk to people, but as a group you/we shouldn't just turn away from white people because it's frustrating. Frustration should not get in the way of the goal.

Nepenthe said:
You can't be woke for 24 hours a day. You need at least 6 hours to sleep.

Side note, this is great, but it also brilliantly makes your point. So kudos on that.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
This is such nonsense.

Btw your country just literally voted to tank your own economy over race and xenophobia.

Glass houses, stones, etc...

Yeah, we have issues too (where doesn't?) but it doesn't seem to have the same level of sectarianism as in America. It's the defining thing in American politics.

Not · Sep 7, 2016

IrishNinja said:
i dunno, do you have exchanges with conservatives very often? ive been hearing this shit for about as long as some folks knew the term "affirmative action"

From conservatives, sure. But now I hear it from literally all white people who don't read books.

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Yeah, we have issues too (where doesn't?) but it doesn't seem to have the same level of sectarianism as in America. It's the defining thing in American politics.

What's it like in London, where the white population is no longer the majority?

ishibear · Sep 7, 2016

Dreams-Visions said:
By all means knock yourself out. Some of us have been carrying on the conversation for a decade or more. More like 2 decades for me personally, and I'm exhausted. I can barely even read half the posts in this thread because it saps me of my life force. If you want to continue to do so, that's good. We need more educated, illuminated people ready to try to help illuminate others when possible. Just understand (1) if you're not woke yourself, you're a detriment to the cause and (2) your wisdom and experiences will usually go in one ear and out the other.

Oh, and never argue with anyone on Facebook or comments sections of anything. That's where the author of the OP went wrong. Helping people get to a place of better understanding requires an audience capable of considering, entertaining and maybe accepting that their perspective may have been incomplete on certain topics that are essential to the conversation. Facebookers/news commenters/ youtube commenters are not interested in truth; they're interested in being hateful and anonymous.

For example, if someone asks you why black people are poor and usually live in ghettos and urban areas and you don't know enough about white flight, gentrification, housing discrimination, the long history of denied home ownership, or how the history of wealth inequality for people of color related to ownership of things impacts everything from present opportunities to future ones (as well as the history of all of the above), you can't help wake anyone up. You need to go spend some more time in the library yourself. And that's just one angle on one topic among hundreds. The same topic can be tackled with examining the impact of slavery on the black family, the creation of urban zones without opportunity for upwards mobility, inaccessible higher education, self-hate and their strength of popular culture, so on and so forth. All of which tie into the matter. All part of the complex web of things that act upon and interact with the lives and times of all people of color.

As you said earlier, being black doesn't make you an authority on any of the issues being discussed. Or perhaps better stated, it doesn't give you the innate ability to be able to discuss these issues with the level of depth and complexity they require to wake someone else up. But it does mean you have enough skin in the game to educate yourself well and impart some of that on others as many of us here have done over the years.

You'll have to pardon our reluctance to continue doing so. We've done our part to help when we didn't have to. If you're capable of stepping up and doing more than deriding what you feel other black folk aren't doing enough of or calling on whataboutisms to frame your arguments against black folk, then step up and do so. If this was your audition, consider me both uninspired and unimpressed so far.

Excellent post.

ColdLasagna · Sep 7, 2016

Cannot recommend this book near enough. Great list of books a few pages back.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

Not said:
What's it like in London, where the white population is no longer the majority?

London is it's own universe really, and it does have race relations issues at times but on the whole it's a pretty well integrated place and half the reason London is the city at the centre of europe is multiculturalism. There are issues politically where race tends to play a part, see the Tower Hamlets nonsense.

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Yeah, we have issues too (where doesn't?) but it doesn't seem to have the same level of sectarianism as in America. It's the defining thing in American politics.

maybe it should be? perhaps if ya'll spoke on these things, you wouldn't have made such a terrible decision
meanwhile, we're having long overdue conversations out here

Not said:
From conservatives, sure. But now I hear it from literally all white people who don't read books.

you're not wrong, i think elements of the bernie camp helped remind me how popular this nonsense is with the white left as well

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

remist said:
If that's the extent if his argument, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. It just seems like hes making a stronger case than that.

Last part of the article all but says as much imo. The narrative style is to talk about black people in general but the end is a call for black folk as individuals to allow themselves the option to disengage if it will improve their mental health.

Dreams-Visions · Sep 7, 2016

Nepenthe said:
Black people are not wells of infinite time and patience. We have to know when to bail, we have to know how to choose our battles, and we have to know when to rest. We are not responsible for every ignorant individual, and people are always inevitably left behind in the march of progress, which has been done even when a majority of people weren't on board with specific milestones and legislation. It is up to black individuals to choose when and when not to engage. At the end of the day, you have to take care of yourself and that includes your mental and emotional health.
.

If I had learned that lesson earlier on, I would have a lot more life force left to donate around. I made the mistake of trying to help everyone who took part in such conversations, many of which were in an embryonic state and simply incapable of grasping the matters at hand in the same way an elementary school student learning addition and subtraction can't be reasonably asked to work their way through trigonometry. The issue is, (white) people tend to think they're ready for this high-level conversation without realizing they need to learn 4+4 first. And in trying to entertain that low level, I burned myself out.

I'll never forget I once wore a t-shirt like this to class in high school.

One of my good friends, Becky (you can guess her ethnicity, more or less I presume) asked me (and I'll never forget it),

"Why does it have to be the BLACK Yankees?"

"Well, because it was a Negro Leagues team..." I said.

"Why does it have to be the NEGRO leagues????"

...

And in even making this point, I know some people here reading this but not posting are saying to themselves, "the who? the fuck is a negro league?" For those of you, here you go. It was a baseball league formed for black and latino players before Major League Baseball finally admitted black players, starting with Jacky Robinson. No, we didn't magically become capable of playing baseball; we had our own league that was running for years to serve our players and people. It's all we had and in looking back it was something to be proud of. It was an example of black empowerment and opportunity. Overcoming by making their own luck and opportunities. Proving that they were just as capable as anyone else.

But the point here is, when even recent historical events escape the education of the typical white person (who has no reason outside of formal education to expose themselves to any of this information at all) it begins to feel like hopelessly paddling against a current, trying to help bring some illumination to people who have never been asked to. Asking them feel the need to become illuminated on issues that don't actually impact them personally. It's akin to getting Americans in general to care about the plight of people in the middle east. People care until they turn the channel. That same ability to disengage is why there is such widespread ignorance about even our own past as a nation today, complete with regular efforts to minimize the presence of slavery, the civil rights movement, asian internment, and similar from the curriculum (thanks, Texas education leadership!). Indeed one of the greatest privelidges of being white in America (for most) is the ability to simply "turn the channel" away from issues that people of color can never turn off or away from. There are few scenarios where they can escape the influence of popular culture or economic policies rained down by the majority. Whereas the majority can simple recluse themselves in enclaves where no people of color exist and persist. We just had a thread about whites moving away from asians in Atlanta. Because that's something white Americans can do that most people of color cannot.

People are still blown away when they learn about Crispus Attucks. The educational system has fallen far short of where it needs to be, to the detriment of all peoples of all colors. Subjugated and sabotaged by the ways of Exceptionalism.

excelsiorlef said:
I can't even talk about systemic issues without some of my fellow white people going "well not me". Those hypothetical white folk statements in the article are almost verbatim things that get said again and again in every cop shooting thread, every BLM protesting thread here. Fuck look at that thread about university housing: it's just full of MLK would be sad and this is segregation. Black folk are in effect expected to have this "conversation" 24/7 whenever white folk want it, and if they want a space that doesn't allow white folk to demand the "conversation" well then that's segregation and racist against white people.

To some white folk the "conversation" might be their first time ever having it but to black folk it's Tuesday. I'm white and I find the merry-go-round "conversation" with other white folk exhausting it's a million times more so for black folk who actually have to live this shit.

Yes, very much this.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

IrishNinja said:
maybe it should be? perhaps if ya'll spoke on these things, you wouldn't have made such a terrible decision
meanwhile, we're having long overdue conversations out here

Brexit was a complicated issue and while race did play a part the underlying cause of brexit was the disenfranchisement of working class, rural people, of all races.

Xenophobia is a far bigger issue here than race, I would totally agree that xenophobia played a huge part in swinging the vote but only a minority of the brexiters were outright racists. Most were just people who had been cut off by globalisation and it's something could have been prevented with better funding for public services in rural or coastal communities.

Gotdatmoney · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
America's obsession with race is absolutely insane. On all sides.

Lol. "All sides"

One side has been subjected to centuries of oppression and can't even say their lives matter without people getting salty.

There is no "both sides" in this debate. Black people aren't asking for golden showers here. They are asking for the police to stop.terrorizing their communities and targetting them unjustly.

That's nothing about both sides. That's disemfranchised people asking for respect. Dpn't play this all sides shit. The black people dodnt just irrationally get angry. Miss me with this trash.

Angelus Errare · Sep 7, 2016

Amazing how there is an argument in this thread about "NotAllWhitePeople" and seen as a monolith. Like I'm actually laughing.

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Yeah, we have issues too (where doesn't?) but it doesn't seem to have the same level of sectarianism as in America. It's the defining thing in American politics.

I just want you to be fully aware that you came into this thread and did the following:

a) Put your country on some superiority pedestal, despite the fact that they just tanked their economy over race and xenophobia
b) Admonished Black Americans for being too concerned about race whilst putting them on the same level comparatively of the racists who oppress them.
c) Demonstrated you have absolutely no idea about the issues, and actually serve as a perfect example of what caused the article this OP is about to be written.

Simplet · Sep 7, 2016

Angelus Errare said:
Honestly, any white person who tries to "equalize" how we've experience racism by telling me that one time they were mistreated in high school automatically gets a laugh and eyerolls from me. Like fuck off with that "I know your pain because I experienced it too" bullshit.

The minute that person left high school they never had society treat them as a secondary citizen because of their white skin. They could go anywhere in America and have their whitness reaffirmed over and over again. Not even remotely the same as what black people go through.

This whole "please understand us and meet us half way" is the biggest bunch of shit white people love to counter argument with. Like fuck off and go away.

What's the point of being such an asshole though? I'm sure being bullied and humiliated felt real for the guy who told you that, you don't have to mock him for trying to relate. Obviously there is a difference between systemic discrimination and some individual experiences, but unless these people are specifically trying to use these experiences to deny that there is a discrimination problem in the US, I don't see the need to piss on these people feelings.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

Gotdatmoney said:
Lol. "All sides"

One side has been subjected to centuries of oppression and can't even say their lives matter without people getting salty.

There is no "both sides" in this debate. Black people aren't asking for golden showers here. They are asking for the police to stop.terrorizing their communities and targetting them unjustly.

That's nothing about both sides. That's disemfranchised people asking for respect. Dpn't play this all sides shit. The black people dodnt just irrationally get angry. Miss me with this trash.

Look, I've never said that black people in america are getting irrationally angry. I said I understand that there are reasons for this. From the outside looking in, it seems that race is the number one politics issue in America. And from where I'm sitting that seems insane, given the number of social and economic changes that America is going through and that we're this far into the future and it's still the number one problem.

I'm not for one second suggesting black people shouldn't be protesting against racist police.

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

Angelus Errare said:
Amazing how there is an argument in this thread about "NotAllWhitePeople" and seen as a monolith. Like I'm actually laughing.

angelus, only a minority of the posters are outright racists. Most are just people who had been cut off by globalisation and it's something could have been prevented with better funding for public services in rural or coastal communities.

Not · Sep 7, 2016

Angelus Errare said:
Amazing how there is an argument in this thread about "NotAllWhitePeople" and seen as a monolith. Like I'm actually laughing.

It's getting less and less funny to me with every thread

Like a "this might actually take a couple generations to subside" kind of less funny

Slayven · Sep 7, 2016

More and more it seems like "minority dance for me and than maybe I will entertain listening to your plight"

Billy_Pilgrim said:
America's obsession with race is absolutely insane. On all sides. I understand that there are some very significant reasons for this but it still blows my mind how you just cannot shake it off as a social issue that underpins almost everything.

Crack a history book. 400 years of inertia does not stop over night

David H Wong · Sep 7, 2016

Dreams-Visions said:
If I had learned that lesson earlier on, I would have a lot more life force left to donate around. I made the mistake of trying to help everyone who took part in such conversations, many of which were in an embryonic state and simply incapable of grasping the matters at hand in the same way an elementary school student learning addition and subtraction can't be reasonably asked to work their way through trigonometry. The issue is, (white) people tend to think they're ready for this high-level conversation without realizing they need to learn 4+4 first. And in trying to entertain that low level, I burned myself out.

I'll never forget I once wore a t-shirt like this to class in high school.

One of my good friends, Becky (you can guess her ethnicity, more or less I presume) asked me (and I'll never forget it),

"Why does it have to be the BLACK Yankees?"

"Well, because it was a Negro Leagues team..." I said.

"Why does it have to be the NEGRO leagues????"

...

And in even making this point, I know some people here reading this but not posting are saying to themselves, "the who? the fuck is a negro league?" For those of you, here you go. It was a baseball league formed for black and latino players before Major League Baseball finally admitted black players, starting with Jacky Robinson. No, we didn't magically become capable of playing baseball; we had our own league that was running for years to serve our players and people.

And then baseball was integrated. Progress was made. VAST progress has been made in the last 150 years - it's astounding, a credit to everyone who sacrificed to make it happen. Huge problems persist, but it's very weird to act like nothing has ever changed and that the struggle is pointless. The progress in the last 60 years alone has been miraculous, but it is not a linear process and there are fits and starts. The current generation has a unique challenge in that they're removed enough from the civil rights movement to regard it as ancient history, so the education for them is different than it would have been a generation ago.

But there's no reason to believe progress can't continue to be made as long as pressure is continuously applied. Hell, some of the segregationists were still in office when I was born. Reform happens inches at a time and the system will fight every step of the way.

The references earlier in the thread to black attitudes toward gay and trans people isn't "whataboutism" - it's pointing out that no individual has specific motivation to care about downtrodden groups unless it is brought to their forceful attention again and again - it's in no way a specifically white flaw. It's inherent to humans - everyone has day to day struggles and it takes a lot to pull us out of that bubble and see that others don't have our advantages.

I'm not suggesting we exercise understanding with the racists because we should be nice to racists - I'm saying that understanding the mindset is the first step to fixing it. And the first step to understanding the mindset is seeing how we all fall prey to it.

Schlep · Sep 7, 2016

Angelus Errare said:
Amazing how there is an argument in this thread about "NotAllWhitePeople" and seen as a monolith. Like I'm actually laughing.

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
I just want you to be fully aware that you came into this thread and did the following:

a) Put your country on some superiority pedestal, despite the fact that they just tanked their economy over race and xenophobia
b) Admonished Black Americans for being too concerned about race whilst putting them on the same level comparatively of the racists who oppress them.
c) Demonstrated you have absolutely no idea about the issues, and actually serve as a perfect example of what caused the article this OP is about to be written.

exactly, strongly cosinging point c)

Simplet said:
What's the point of being such an asshole though? I'm sure being bullied and humiliated felt real for the guy who told you that, you don't have to mock him for trying to relate. Obviously there is a difference between systemic discrimination and some individual experiences, but unless these people are specifically trying to use these experiences to deny that there is a discrimination problem in the US, I don't see the need to piss on these people feelings.

because it's completely dismissive bullshit, and a perfect example of privielage right there - oh, you took shit for a bit in high school, that's on the level of systemic oppression? if we're referring to the same post, that winner even signed it all lives matter, in case the intent wasn't clear. and he's somehow not the asshole...?

Dreams-Visions · Sep 7, 2016

Slayven said:
Crack a history book.

Unfortunately we now have to be far more specific than that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/opinion/how-texas-teaches-history.html

A TEXAS high school student and his mother recently called attention to a curious line in a geography textbook: a description of the Atlantic slave trade as bringing “millions of workers” to plantations in the American South. McGraw-Hill Education, the publisher of the textbook, has since acknowledged that the term “workers” was a misnomer.

Let that shit sink in slowly.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/revisionaries/

https://thinkprogress.org/texas-boa...-fact-check-textbooks-1a056cd6a757#.2ya84brzr

David H Wong said:
And then baseball was integrated. Progress was made. VAST progress has been made in the last 150 years - it's astounding, a credit to everyone who sacrificed to make it happen. Huge problems persist, but it's very weird to act like nothing has ever changed and that the struggle is pointless. The progress in the last 60 years alone has been miraculous, but it is not a linear process and there are fits and starts. The current generation has a unique challenge in that they're removed enough from the civil rights movement to regard it as ancient history, so the education for them is different than it would have been a generation ago.

But there's no reason to believe progress can't continue to be made as long as pressure is continuously applied. Hell, some of the segregationists were still in office when I was born. Reform happens inches at a time and the system will fight every step of the way.

The references earlier in the thread to black attitudes toward gay and trans people isn't "whataboutism" - it's pointing out that no individual has specific motivation to care about downtrodden groups unless it is brought to their forceful attention again and again - it's in no way a specifically white flaw. It's inherent to humans - everyone has day to day struggles and it takes a lot to pull us out of that bubble and see that others don't have our advantages.

I'm not suggesting we exercise understanding with the racists because we should be nice to racists - I'm saying that understanding the mindset is the first step to fixing it. And the first step to understanding the mindset is seeing how we all fall prey to it.

the conversation was never about whether progress could or could not be made; the conversation has been about to what degree we people of color should feel compelled to engage people about it in an anonymous setting or online and to what degree. I will not be conscripted into entertaining these sorts of threads or conversations anymore. I refuse to do it. I'll participate when I want to and IF I want to. And nowadays, I usually don't. Where you (perhaps) and others can simply peek in and out and engage when you feel like it, we're talking about my life and the lives of people like me and what we deal with daily being laid open, and a lot of this hurts to talk about. Where for many here it means nothing at all and as soon as they press "back" in their browser they're not thinking about it again. We don't get an off switch. Thus if I don't feel like engaging you or others, you'll just have to understand. I'm a war vet with PTSD as far as these matters go now.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
I just want you to be fully aware that you came into this thread and did the following:

a) Put your country on some superiority pedestal, despite the fact that they just tanked their economy over race and xenophobia
b) Admonished Black Americans for being too concerned about race whilst putting them on the same level comparatively of the racists who oppress them.
c) Demonstrated you have absolutely no idea about the issues, and actually serve as a perfect example of what caused the article this OP is about to be written.

I have not admonished black people. I honestly don't know why you're saying that. I just think it's nuts how race is such a defining issue in America for everyone, still. I want what you want, so please don't treat me like I'm saying black people shouldn't do something and that not all white people are racist. That isn't even close to what I was saying.

ishibear · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
I have not admonished black people. I honestly don't know why you're saying that. I just think it's nuts how race is such a defining issue in America for everyone, still. I want what you want, so please don't treat me like I'm saying black people shouldn't do something and that not all white people are racist. That isn't even close to what I was saying.

Race will continue to be an issue in America until more steps are made in the direction of improvement. America's problem is that nothing has been done. Excuses have been made and heinous acts have been minimized and buried. That's it. That's why it remains a defining issue.

Cipherr · Sep 7, 2016

I get the sentiment. Ive run into those folks before too, and lord knows:

We need to stop acting like white people dont take the same reading comprehension portions of standardized tests all through middle and high school that we do. They know how analogies work. They got it the first time they just didnt care.

This shit is true of literally every single one of them trying to pull that lame ass "All lives matter" bullshit. Its far past time to stop believing that they are misunderstanding it. They know what BLM means and what it stands for. They are openly mocking it for obvious racist reasons and they completely understand that its what they are doing. Don't waste your breath/keystrokes explaining it; because I can guarantee someone else already has pointed it out and they have ignored it.

OTOH Im not with painting broad strokes over millions like the title implies. That's going way to far.

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
I have not admonished black people. I honestly don't know why you're saying that. I just think it's nuts how race is such a defining issue in America for everyone, still. I want what you want, so please don't treat me like I'm saying black people shouldn't do something and that not all white people are racist. That isn't even close to what I was saying.

Then honest to god what were you saying?

You literally came into as thread to trumpet how unlike your country the US on both sides is too obsessed with race.

You doubled down on this both sides bullshit narrative and then downplayed the racism behind Brexit to once again admonish the US ("both sides!") for being too focused on race.

You can't admonish "both sides" for being too race obsessed and then claim you never admonished Black folk

What is your point?

Simplet · Sep 7, 2016

IrishNinja said:
because it's completely dismissive bullshit, and a perfect example of privielage right there - oh, you took shit for a bit in high school, that's on the level of systemic oppression? if we're referring to the same post, that winner even signed it all lives matter, in case the intent wasn't clear. and he's somehow not the asshole...?

It's not a question of how much shit you took, it's a question of the nature of the shit. So the experience of white people and black people are not really comparable because the dynamics that are causing them to suffer are different, not because black suffering is inherently worse than white suffering (at the individual level).

I had a white friend that worked as a teacher, he killed himself because he couldn't take being taunted by his students day after day. I'm pretty sure the constant humiliation felt real to him, and obviously his suffering doesn't negate systemic discrimination but at the same time I don't think it necessarily deserves to be laughed about.

I wasn't specifically talking about the all lives matter guy in this thread, I'm just saying that this sneering dismissal of white people's feelings just because they are not necessarily relevant to this particular conversation is not really productive.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
Then honest to god what were you saying?

You literally came into as thread to trumpet how unlike your country the US on both sides is too obsessed with race.

You doubled down on this both sides bullshit narrative and then downplayed the racism behind Brexit to once again admonish the US ("both sides!") for being too focused on race.

You can't admonish "both sides" for being too race obsessed and then claim you never admonished Black folk

What is your point?

My point was exactly what I wrote. You seem to think I have an agenda that I quite simply don't.

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
My point was exactly what I wrote. You seem to think I have an agenda that I quite simply don't.

That both sides aka Black folk and racists are too obsessed with race?

What does that even mean?

Educate me on your point of view.

ishibear · Sep 7, 2016

Simplet said:
It's not a question of how much shit you took, it's a question of the nature of the shit. So the experience of white people and black people are not really comparable because the dynamics that are causing them to suffer are different, not because black suffering is inherently worse than white suffering (at the individual level).

I had a white friend that worked as a teacher, he killed himself because he couldn't take being taunted by his students day after day. I'm pretty sure the constant humiliation felt real to him, and obviously his suffering doesn't negate systemic discrimination but at the same time I don't think it necessarily deserves to be laughed about.

I wasn't specifically talking about that guy in the thread earlier, I'm just saying that this sneering dismissal of white people's feelings just because they are not necessarily relevant to this particular conversation is really productive.

If they aren't relevant to the discussion, they are distracting from it. Therefore, what's the point of it but to minimize the extent of black suffering?

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

David H Wong said:
I'm not suggesting we exercise understanding with the racists because we should be nice to racists - I'm saying that understanding the mindset is the first step to fixing it. And the first step to understanding the mindset is seeing how we all fall prey to it.

you're asking an awful lot of a historically disenfranchised group that doesn't talk these issues like i do, they live it - in an environment where literally having a football player not stand brings out the same shit we've all seen forever now.

i sit here with close friends & family on some all lives matter bullshit and try to wrap my head around it - are they that woefully ignorant of society around them, or just lacking the perspective to empathize? you literally can't get into this without that level of defensiveness that guarantees nothing will be said/accomplished, so you just wanna let these folks have their dumbass ideas until they figure it out otherwise - maybe the police will kill a black person they like sometime, i don't know.

but i do know i can pick & choose when to engage this sisyphean task - my black friends cannot. you, in turn, are then asking them to cross so far past meeting halfway as to practically coddle a group that in no short terms says a status quo of them being oppressed/dying in the streets is fine by them.

this thread is full of dudes on about how important it is for oppressed groups to keep doing what's expected of them, completely missing the point of the OP.

Billy_Pilgrim · Sep 7, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
That both sides aka black folk and racists are too obsessed with race?

What does that even fucking mean?

Educate me on your point of view.

I think the obsession is justifiable, but that it's just nuts that we're so far along and race is still the number one issue in America for just about everyone in America. That's it. There's no alllivesmatter bullshit behind that, I'm not equivocating the 'concerns' of white people or whatever else.

Alienfan · Sep 7, 2016

Nepenthe said:
We've given white people our black input for centuries. Our words, thoughts, experiences, art, and actual statistical studies are on the record in this vast compendium of near-permanent knowledge called the Internet. So there's actually no excuse. Me taking a break to laugh at the white people actually crying about Formation doesn't erase black words and contributions. You can't be woke for 24 hours a day. You need at least 6 hours to sleep.

Dude I totally understand where you're coming from, as a "gay" man living in the rural parts of New Zealand I get how frustrating these discussions can be, but they're not all for nothing, even if you can change one person's mind, you've accomplished so much - at least that's how I've always seen it. Sure you're not going to change the entire world, or even 0.1% of it, but collectively all these small contributions do add up and are an extremely important part of any movement. Legislative changes bring about the most change of course (I'm not disputing this), but discussions are a great analog and can reduce prejudice; allowing two people to compare and connect their own experiences with that of another person's - this form of deeper personal communication can be more powerful and convincing than a written document.

Dreams-Visions · Sep 7, 2016

Nepenthe said:
We've given white people our black input for centuries. Our words, thoughts, experiences, art, and actual statistical studies are on the record in this vast compendium of near-permanent knowledge called the Internet. So there's actually no excuse. Me taking a break to laugh at the white people actually crying about Formation doesn't erase black words and contributions. You can't be woke for 24 hours a day. You need at least 6 hours to sleep.

lol my man. I'mma write that shit down. "You can't be work for 24 hours a day. You need at least 6 hours of rest and relaxation daily."

Let me exhale sometimes without getting offended.

animlboogy said:
I'm not racist, I just notice that blacks and Mexicans are more violent and less intelligent, so I vote for politicians and policies that keep them in line.

The real racism is calling me racist. I haven't lynched a single black man, to my knowledge.

:-*)

Simplet · Sep 7, 2016

ishibear said:
If they aren't relevant to the discussion, they are distracting from it. Therefore, what's the point of it but to minimize the extent of black suffering?

I can think of a lot of reasons, ranging from narcissism, to the urge to talk to someone about your suffering, to the need to relate and create a connexion with the people you're talking to, to actually trying to minimize the extent of black suffering. But even in this last case I don't believe the best course of action is to laugh at them because "everybody knows white people can't have problems", it's just a stupid reaction that also misses the point.

IrishNinja · Sep 7, 2016

Cipherr said:
This shit is true of literally every single one of them trying to pull that lame ass "All lives matter" bullshit. Its far past time to stop believing that they are misunderstanding it. They know what BLM means and what it stands for. They are openly mocking it for obvious racist reasons and they completely understand that its what they are doing. Don't waste your breath/keystrokes explaining it; because I can guarantee someone else already has pointed it out and they have ignored it.

this is absolutely the conclusion i've come to as well
if someone's not gonna engage something honestly - and further, minimize it - i'm not interested in what flavor of racist/ignorance that is, they're simply not worth indulging

Simplet said:
It's not a question of how much shit you took, it's a question of the nature of the shit. So the experience of white people and black people are not really comparable because the dynamics that are causing them to suffer are different, not because black suffering is inherently worse than white suffering (at the individual level).

I had a white friend that worked as a teacher, he killed himself because he couldn't take being taunted by his students day after day. I'm pretty sure the constant humiliation felt real to him, and obviously his suffering doesn't negate systemic discrimination but at the same time I don't think it necessarily deserves to be laughed about.

I wasn't specifically talking about the all lives matter guy in this thread, I'm just saying that this sneering dismissal of white people's feelings just because they are not necessarily relevant to this particular conversation is not really productive.

sure, and that's awful, but make a thread for that guy. we're on about systemic oppression of blacks in this thread, what's the point of bringing that up here? its logically along the same lines of all lives matter, trying to minimize ongoing disenfranchisement by equating with anecdotal tales.

imagine i went into the OT thread on the huge native protest going on right now & talked about how rude my friend was treated working at the seminole reservation a few years back. what would you gather my point was in that context, to shift the topic to my struggle, or minimize the point of said thread? would the distinction even matter?

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Shake Appeal said:
"Racist" isn't a useful term because it's an extreme caricature for most people. Also, it's seen as an explosive slur to label someone as racist (rather than their thinking, their policy commitments, their voting record).

You can be aghast at "racism" and "racists" (the ones wearing white hoods), and still hold racist views or tacitly endorse racist policy. The overwhelming majority of us do.

That's called being racist.

You can be racist and still be upset when the white hoods make it too public.

Brakke · Sep 7, 2016

Not said:
It took around four years of social justice reaching the mainstream for white people to be the most oppressed group.

Impressive stuff.

"Four years"? In what world is social justice a fresh, four year old concern?

excelsiorlef · Sep 7, 2016

Simplet said:
I can think of a lot of reasons, ranging from narcissism, to the urge to talk to someone about your suffering, to the need to relate and create a connexion with the people you're talking to, to actually trying to minimize the extent of black suffering. But even in this last case I don't believe the best course of action is to laugh at them because "everybody knows white people can't have problems", it's just a stupid reaction that also misses the point.

I will laugh at anyone who goes both sides, all lives matter.

JaggedSac · Sep 7, 2016

Technically, my occupation of this country was involuntary.

Leunam · Sep 7, 2016

Billy_Pilgrim said:
I think the obsession is justifiable, but that it's just nuts that we're so far along and race is still the number one issue in America for just about everyone in America. That's it. There's no alllivesmatter bullshit behind that, I'm not equivocating the 'concerns' of white people or whatever else.

You might see it as 'look how far we've come' but ask any minority and they'll tell you 'look how far we have left to go.'

That might be the root of this obsession, as you like to call it.

KonradLaw · Sep 7, 2016

Wouldn't this essentially mean giving up? Aren't whites majority in USA and holding even more power than their population's size would indicate? You won't do shit about systemic racism without white people when they're the ones who control the system.

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