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Why do open world games with poor controls keep getting a free pass?

yuraya

Member
The industry needs to take notes from Kojima. MGSV was basically the first ever game where you were given complete control over a character. Everything was smooth and refined to the extreme.

I mean how many open world games let you dive to the ground and roll around on the ground while prone and then shoot off your back?

How many linear games let you do that?

It was a very rare and really special game. Sadly we will probably never get such an engaging stealth game again.
 

Gbraga

Member
I'll probably get shit for this, but I think you only need to see how many of those AAA open world games are western to know why they're not that good, as far as controls are concerned.

It's no coincidence that the one example people keep using of amazing controls in an open world game is japanese.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the controls for many of these games. They might not be amazing, but they're fine. I really enjoy the combat and exploration in Witcher 3. Horse races can be a bit of a pain in the ass, though.

I do use a mod that remaps the running speeds in the left analog stick, though, so that also affects my perception. I do remember that making Geralt walk in one of the slower speeds was actually hard without mods, some of them straight up impossible after 1.07, but everything works perfectly and it's very intuitive with the mod.
 

WillyFive

Member
Assasin's Creed and GTA do indeed have horrible controls. I am still baffled with how many Assasin's Creed games come out, the controls are still a nightmare. Playing AC Syndicate is a chore just trying to get from point A to point B.
 

Arthimura

Member
I don't like a lot of western open-world games because of this reason, 90% of the time the controls are bad and the combat is pretty shallow.

I can't enjoy Bethesda games or Witcher anymore after playing Xenoblade Chronicles X and Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen.
 

jdmonmou

Member
I wouldn't call the controls in Witcher 3, GTA, or RDR poor. I would call them good enough. These developers have a lot of control schemes to cram in one game. As long as the controls don't detract too much from the fun I'm having I'm willing to overlook a few annoyances.

I mean lesser games like Infamous or even Mad Max feel much better to actually play.

I feel that Infamous and Mad Max would've been better if the games were linear and not open world. The open world environment and side missions were all pretty bland which added bloat to both games. These were really linear games ham-fisted into an open world.
 

Exentryk

Member
Even newer Japanese games aren't exempt. In Final Fantasy XV, Noctis is way too over-animated, and takes an extra half a second to stop after running. Even the combat has way too much animation priority, rather than trying to make it more responsive.

As an example, if you're running and change to a different weapon, Noctis will stop and play out the weapon-swapping animation, and then continue running again. Lol.

giphy.gif
 

Kill3r7

Member
Most gamers understand that coming up with a control scheme to cover the many different play styles available in an open world games is immensely difficult. Controls could be better but there are many great games which are revered that have subpar controls. Open world games are like a jam band. Not perfect but there is sure a lot to love.
 

WillyFive

Member
I'll probably get shit for this, but I think you only need to see how many of those AAA open world games are western to know why they're not that good, as far as controls are concerned.

It's no coincidence that the one example people keep using of amazing controls in an open world game is japanese.

I've noticed that too. Maybe cultural differences means that western developers pay less attention to how well a game plays and instead focus on what you can do with it? Maybe the obsession over realistic graphics means that the developers will prefer to let a character's animation play out before letting the player change it, resulting in laggy unresponsive controls to a game where the animation just snaps into place.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
People love to give the AC games crap but don't seem to understand the geometry and interaction complexity or have a better idea how they'd handle it. Given the insane task they gave themselves by stacking all these systems onto a dense world it's amazing how smoothly the Anvilnext version of the running mechanic works, particularly in Syndicate. A game like Shadow of Mordor doesn't have anywhere near the complexity of surfaces to traverse, for example.
Yep, it's insane how much control you have in the last two AC games. Quick tips OP, pick and choose when to tap or hold X or O while running. DO NOT just hold X at all times. You need to think of the level design as a 3D space and constantly decide what move to make next to keep your momentum going.

This is just using R2
giphy.gif


This is what happens if you hold R2+X after as you're swinging from the first monkey bar
giphy.gif


This is what happens if you hold R2+O as you swing from the first monkey bar
giphy.gif


A bit more complex.
This is what happens if you hold R2+X for the first jump and then hold O as you grab the monkey bar followed by double tapping O to roll, which negates fall damage.
giphy.gif


And this is what happens if you slide and use the parkour down control followed by just holding R2
giphy.gif


Always remember that R2+O while running=vaulting to get over obstacles to keep your momentum going
AthleticGrotesqueEastsiberianlaika-size_restricted.gif


You'll notice in all of these gifs that he's stopping on a dime as soon as the player lets go of the controls too instead of walking forward a little bit like in say GTA, the game absolutely has very little animation priority and will even interrupt finishing moves for a parry. They absolutely depend on you to be able to think on your feet, (or like an assassin), to figure out what to press at what time in order to make an escape, cross a rooftop, or close the distance between yourself and a target.

So the problem isn't necessarily the controls OP. Unless you consider a learning curve and skill gap to be a problem?
 

ReyVGM

Member
So I've been trying to play AC Unity lately (keyword trying) but the controls are absolutely abysmal. It's virtually impossible to feel fluid while doing even the most mundane tasks in this game, even simply climbing through a window can turn into a debacle. Under pressure? Forget it - the game turns into a literal disaster to control when you try to do things through muscle memory. You're meant to be a super agile/stealthy assassin but in the actual game you're anything but.

The four biggest open world franchises all have had terrible controls - GTA/RDR, Witcher 3, Fallout/Skyrim and Assassin's Creed. To make matters worse these games all have huge budgets but seemingly none if it is assigned to what is essentially the core gameplay (combat/traversal controls). Witcher 3 got an alternate scheme which was a band aid fix at best. AC Syndicate was better than Unity and introduced the grappling hook which basically bypassed most of the climbing mechanics. GTA still forces you to hold a button to run for crying out loud. Fallout 4 had better shooting mechanics but it still uses the same old engine with terrible animations. First person makes it more tolerable though.

I would call the control schemes of all these games objectively bad and yet they all sell millions of copies every time. Are the next games going to control any better or do developers simply not care since they sell regardless? Sure each game is marginally better each time but the improvements are pretty glacial. I mean lesser games like Infamous or even Mad Max feel much better to actually play.

Yep, that's a lot of western games and it has been like that since the 80's. Take the best NES Japanese game from that era and compare it to the best european NES/Amiga game and you will always notice the European games have worse controls.
 
The only answer is people find other things they like about those games so they ignore the control issues. Also this is subjective. I agree that gta and rdr control like shit. W3 just fills floaty and disconected. Fallout 4 felt fine to me.
 
Generally controls have become less and less important to people who play video games.
The Witcher 3 hardly got a "free pass" regarding it's controls. There were many complaints about them.
Yeah, but it still got more GOTY wins then pretty much any game ever. Which is pretty crazy. Whatever criticisms were levied against it didn't really have much of an effect.

Also, you had plenty of people defending the controls.
 

Head.spawn

Junior Member
Generally controls have become less and less important to people who play video games.

Yeah, but it still got more GOTY wins then pretty much any game ever. Which is pretty crazy. Whatever criticisms were levied against it didn't really have much of an effect.

Also, you had plenty of people defending the controls.

It felt like Batman Arkham series to me, i couldn't relate to the complaints; i had no problems doing anything I wanted.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
I've noticed that too. Maybe cultural differences means that western developers pay less attention to how well a game plays and instead focus on what you can do with it? Maybe the obsession over realistic graphics means that the developers will prefer to let a character's animation play out before letting the player change it, resulting in laggy unresponsive controls to a game where the animation just snaps into place.

I do think with western open-world games so much of the focus is making the world as expansive as possible but skimping out on such simple things like making character movement fun.

GTA5 is one of the most successful games in history, Rockstar has a ton of cash and hundreds of developers investing in it, but the actual character movement still feels like you're walking through water. Ubisoft's games and the Batman games feel like this, too.

Sunset Overdrive is one open world game that seemingly got it right with its Jet Set Radio influence.
 

Nesther

Member
Especially after playing MGSV, all other 3D action games just pale in comparison.
I hope to fuck that Kojimas next title controls as smoothly.
 

dreamfall

Member
Can't wait for Mafia III ! A dedicated shoulder button to run and great TPS shooting mechanics await!

I'd also wager playing Kb/m for an open world title like GTA V changes it dramatically for me. It's akin to the experience of aiming and shooting freely with precision aim in earlier GTA titles and then comparing it to lock-on targeting in the console counterparts. It's not even close.
 
Even newer Japanese games aren't exempt. In Final Fantasy XV, Noctis is way too over-animated, and takes an extra half a second to stop after running. Even the combat has way too much animation priority, rather than trying to make it more responsive.

As an example, if you're running and change to a different weapon, Noctis will stop and play out the weapon-swapping animation, and then continue running again. Lol.

ain't it the truth. don't even get me started :) ...
 
The movement in GTA5 sucks. There, i said it
And you're not wrong. I finally got around to playing BOGT just a few months before GTAV came out, and quickly remembered how dated GTAIV felt even back when it came out. Needless to say, I was astonished at the way everything felt in GTAV, and not in a good way. It was nowhere near the improvement I would have hoped for after so many years.

It didn't completely ruin a really good game for me, but I definitely don't give it a free pass. It's one of the reasons I don't hold it in nearly as high regard as many others do.
 
combat movement in GTA V ain't too bad... the 'aim-run', I mean, when you half-press Aim. it removes the momentum inertia or turning circle weight, whatever you want to call it. if you turn off the deadzone and turn up sensitivity, you can spin and strafe pretty close to 1:1 and turn on a dime.

it's awkward to rely on half-pressing a shoulder button for movement, and aim-run turns to aim-walk indoors, but once you get used to it it does help.
 

pr0cs

Member
I actually didn't have too many issues with RDR, but I wouldn't exactly call it good. GTAV went backwards IMO.

Mad Max I played at 60fps on PC so it felt okay to me, and I think the sparse environments and basic gameplay hid some of its issues. I haven't played that game anywhere near as long as the others though.
Considering all the different control mechanics for RDR I think they did well, most of the complaints from the game weren't control based.
I finished Mad Max on pc as well, framerate doesn't make a difference when we're talking about reusing the same button for 3-4 different actions. I almost finished the entire game without using dodge because using Rb was not intuitive at all
 

Timeaisis

Member
Probably because we've gotten used to it and "improved control scheme!" on the back of the box doesn't sell any more units.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
So I've been trying to play AC Unity lately (keyword trying) but the controls are absolutely abysmal. It's virtually impossible to feel fluid while doing even the most mundane tasks in this game, even simply climbing through a window can turn into a debacle. Under pressure? Forget it - the game turns into a literal disaster to control when you try to do things through muscle memory. You're meant to be a super agile/stealthy assassin but in the actual game you're anything but.

The four biggest open world franchises all have had terrible controls - GTA/RDR, Witcher 3, Fallout/Skyrim and Assassin's Creed. To make matters worse these games all have huge budgets but seemingly none if it is assigned to what is essentially the core gameplay (combat/traversal controls). Witcher 3 got an alternate scheme which was a band aid fix at best. AC Syndicate was better than Unity and introduced the grappling hook which basically bypassed most of the climbing mechanics. GTA still forces you to hold a button to run for crying out loud. Fallout 4 had better shooting mechanics but it still uses the same old engine with terrible animations. First person makes it more tolerable though.

I would call the control schemes of all these games objectively bad and yet they all sell millions of copies every time. Are the next games going to control any better or do developers simply not care since they sell regardless? Sure each game is marginally better each time but the improvements are pretty glacial. I mean lesser games like Infamous or even Mad Max feel much better to actually play.
I generally agree with you and I think most of these big AAA western franchise games do control poorly, but what, exactly, is wrong with holding a dash button to run?

but to say all those games control badly seems more like you're expecting RPG open world games to control like an action game.
Why the hell not?
dragons-dogma-041jpg-883545_1280w.jpg
 
I thought Unity was an improvement over Black Flag. Climbing can be a mess, but other than that it's fine.

Rockstar games on the other hand.... Even walking is clunky. It might be intentional, but it certainly isn't fun.
 

soco

Member
So your metric for getting a pass is sales? Our culture is too obsessed with instant gratification to wait for reviews or demos to change this. Millions have likely bought a game before they even know what the controls are, and getting refunds until just recently was largely impossible. Couple this with review embargos until release and what's really to be done?

Besides, aren't most of these just problems on consoles and a side effect of being too complex for the number of inputs? When people try to simplify the inputs and help the players out, that's also gets lots of complaints for "dumbing down" the gameplay ala Fable fighting or the sticky targeting in FPS games.
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
I think it fair to say that generally speaking, the more content a game has, the more acceptable rough edges on that content is. Size is after all relevant to polish. If a game has one table it best look great. If it has a thousand then not so much. There is a level of what is or is not acceptable but it is different for everyone.
 

MUnited83

For you.
I'll probably get shit for this, but I think you only need to see how many of those AAA open world games are western to know why they're not that good, as far as controls are concerned.

It's no coincidence that the one example people keep using of amazing controls in an open world game is japanese.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the controls for many of these games. They might not be amazing, but they're fine. I really enjoy the combat and exploration in Witcher 3. Horse races can be a bit of a pain in the ass, though.

I do use a mod that remaps the running speeds in the left analog stick, though, so that also affects my perception. I do remember that making Geralt walk in one of the slower speeds was actually hard without mods, some of them straight up impossible after 1.07, but everything works perfectly and it's very intuitive with the mod.
LMAO wat . No, the country of origin has jackshit to do with the quality of controls. Bad controls are widespread on Japanese games too. Difference here is that there's basically no recent open world Japanese games to even make a comparison. The only example that exists is MGSV, a game that has a budget dozens of times higher than 99.9% of other Japanese games. And even then, MGSV is shit on the "open world" part.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Reviewers ascribe a lot more importance to ambition than anything else, it seems. I get wanting to reward things that could be seen as moving gaming forward, but yeah, it feels more and more like games that play like trash tend to get a free pass just for throwing a larger map at you than the previous open-world shitfest.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I guess no one is going to address my post with those visuals examples. :/
 
I guess no one is going to address my post with those visuals examples. :/
You aren't wrong, there is certainly a lot of depth to the control scheme of Assassin's Creed. I think those games get a lot of flack because of the complexity of the controls rather than the shoddiness of them. Basically, the controls aren't bad, but mastering them can be quite difficult, to the point that most players don't and have issues with the control scheme. Games with simple control schemes that still allow for fluid/uninterrupted movement seem to get the most praise, things like inFamous: Second Son and Sunset Overdrive, because they control well AND are easy for the average player to master.

Also, it's insane that you still have to mash X in GTAV to run. It's ridiculous.
 

Wolfe

Member
Disagree, all of those games control fine imo, Unity being one of the best out of those listed.
 
The Witcher 3's controls and game feel made me quit 15 hours in. I expected a highly revered game to be highly enjoyable to play, but I guess I was wrong.

I agree OP. It's frustrating. I think people are still attached to the spectacle of open world and story, so they forgive wonky gameplay. It's also possible that people are generally unskilled and lacking graceful inputs so the awkward controls are less apparent.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I couldn't survive more than a few hours of Syndicate. AC controls are fucking abominable.
Did you see my examples above?

You aren't wrong, there is certainly a lot of depth to the control scheme of Assassin's Creed. I think those games get a lot of flack because of the complexity of the controls rather than the shoddiness of them. Basically, the controls aren't bad, but mastering them can be quite difficult, to the point that most players don't and have issues with the control scheme. Games with simple control schemes that still allow for fluid/uninterrupted movement seem to get the most praise, things like inFamous: Second Son and Sunset Overdrive, because they control well AND are easy for the average player to master.

Also, it's insane that you still have to mash X in GTAV to run. It's ridiculous.
This is always odd to me since such a common sentiment on GAF is that learning curves are a good thing. For me i'm never had an issue with what the devs call the "assassin fantasy." I remember this excerpt from that now defunct facebook game that described it perfectly in text form

Ezio will teach me to scale walls quickly and to leap across Roma's rooftops. I have practiced some, but I cannot move at nor anywhere near the speed of my new master. While I am still asking questions, he scrambles up a wall! I struggle to keep up with him!

Ezio grabs the lip of the roof and pulls himself to the top! I try to mimic his movement and nearly lose my footing!
I watch Ezio as he navigates three rooftops. His head is always moving, always scanning for the easiest route to the next landing. He knows his next move before he even lands!I follow his path, imitating his choices. I am clumsy, but I begin to develop a feel for the technique!

Explains why I was so good at the MP compared to other people. I'm not gonna say GG, just always know exactly what your next move is gonna be. My issues with GTAV are well documented, the controls themselves aren't exactly the issue, it's the absolutely insane amount of animation priority. Especially when it comes to things like climbing or getting out of cover.
 
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